December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Zorn and "An Open Letter of American Jews to Our Government"?
by Fritz Feger 03 Dec '02

03 Dec '02

I've been off-list in August, so please don't hesitate to tell me if this has already been discussed (and FAQ'd): I am curious what Zorn's and/or the radical jewish culture people's position would be towards the Israel-Palestine conflict and the position of the American government towards this. What triggered my interest is an article I read on this "An Open Letter from American Jews to Our Government" (www.peacemideast.org) Is anything known about Zorn's position on the propositions made there? Not that I'm not interested in your personal opinions on this topic... but as this is a Zorn list I am not willing to take the responsibility for an off-topic threat :-) Fritz ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.com ##############################################

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Re: But is it stealing?
by Fritz Feger 03 Dec '02

03 Dec '02

Bill on intellectual property: >But this analogy overlooks the crucial difference between material objects >and information: information can be copied and shared almost effortlessly, >while material objects can't be. Basing your thinking on this analogy is >tantamount to ignoring that difference. This is not the analogy the term "intellectual property" primarily refers to. The effortlessness to share it (two guys pickpocketing will have no problems to share the money they stole) or even, in some cases, to copy it (imagine a bio tec enterprise developing a new yoghurt bacterium which is stolen from their laboratories and then reproduced by the thieves) is not restricted to immaterial objects. "Intellectual property" rather is a term designed to protect the efforts of the producer who decides to devote them not to produce material objects but to create immaterial innovations. This is why patent laws exist; without them you wouldn't get most of the economy working, and many great inventions would have never seen the sunlight, as I mentioned some mails ago. "Intellectual property" is an important progress in culture since it helps assigning value to non-material goods. Who of us does not personally profit? And, as I also mentioned earlier, everyone who commits himself to cite other people's ideas rather than to pretend they're his thereby accepts the concept of intellectual property. You have to enter a completely different discourse, namely a capitalism vs. socialism discourse, to address the issue whether or not intellectual property should be assigned a price, or if it should be all public domain. My personal position is a very pragmatic. Intellectual property needs the lowest possible protection which suffices to assure its provision. This means a high level of protection (i.e. high price if you want to utilize other's intellectual property) is required e.g. in the pharmaca sector where they have to go through years of expensive development and testing to make a substance a secure benefit for everyone, and it can be for free with only the citation requirement in academics where the income of the producers of intellectual property is provided differently. Music is somewhere in between, as argued earlier. Best, Fritz ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.de Fon: 0177 - 6424 020 Fax: 0721 - 151 435 058 Rüttenscheider Str. 253 Eulenstraße 56 45131 Essen 22765 Hamburg 0201 - 455 4555 040 - 3980 4766 ##############################################

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 03 Dec '02

03 Dec '02

You are so witty. I love you Mr. Zitt. I really do. Will you please come to my house and show me how a learned person types e-mails? I will glady give you all of the money I have made from my record sales. >From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:21:46 -0800 > >On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:10:57 -0800 >Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> wrote: > > > (BTW, I think the word you're trying to spell is "payed". But that's > > not something you'll experience happening to you often on the small > > scale.) > >Er, I mean the word that you're trying to spell as "payed" is "paid". > >I hate it when the phone rings in mid-sentence, > > > On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:15:24 -0800 > > "john schuller" <superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Do what I do. Work your ass off to get any kind of thing out there. > > > When I recorded my album it required that I not eat as often. It > > > required that I payed an engineer to record the material. I payed > > > for an artist to do all of the layout and cover art. I payed a > > > duplication company to manufacture the cd. I pay for the postage to > > > send the cd to magazines and radio stations. It required that I > > > payed for the entire thing. I had to get on the phone and call > > > distributers. I found one. Doesn't matter though until I have the > > > money to pay for advertising. > >-- >| jzitt(a)josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 03 Dec '02

03 Dec '02

I guess it comes down to whether you want to run a business or make music. I do not care if I make money with my music. I will make music regardless of monitary situations. Wouldn't you? I have to personally apologize to you Mr. Zitt. I forget sometimes that the Zorn List is only for people who use spell check or that can spell paid correctly. Proper spelling is a lifestyle choice. >From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:10:57 -0800 > >Having done that myself, I am aware, as you may discover, of the degree >to which a single person's efforts cannot compare with the resources >available to a large label. It may be fun to do it this way, but it's >not much of a sustainable business model without an unrelated external >income source. > >(BTW, I think the word you're trying to spell is "payed". But that's not >something you'll experience happening to you often on the small scale.) > >On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:15:24 -0800 >"john schuller" <superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Do what I do. Work your ass off to get any kind of thing out there. > > When I recorded my album it required that I not eat as often. It > > required that I payed an engineer to record the material. I payed for > > an artist to do all of the layout and cover art. I payed a duplication > > company to manufacture the cd. I pay for the postage to send the cd to > > magazines and radio stations. It required that I payed for the entire > > thing. I had to get on the phone and call distributers. I found one. > > Doesn't matter though until I have the money to pay for advertising. > > > > I would never complain, and when I do it again it will be done the > > same way. > > > > It can be done all on your own. Look at the Sun City Girls for > > example. They do everything themselves and make great music. They put > > out multiple albums a year and sell them all. Without the help of a > > major record label. > > > > Self released my man. It's fun. > >-- >| jzitt(a)josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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turntablists
by Jacques Soddell 03 Dec '02

03 Dec '02

> Obvious would be Otomo Yoshihide. Others include Philip Jeck, Erik M, > Tsunoda Tsuguto, Martin Tetreault, Martin Ng (I think), etc. > Sydney-sider Martin Ng is excellent Oren Ambarchi & Martin Ng Reconnaissance Staubgold, Germany (CD/LP 2001) Jim Denley & Martin Ng http://www.grobcologne.de/Churchofgrob/CATALOG/Grob322/grob322.html -- jacques soddell lecturer in microbiology, pharmacy dept, school of health & environment la trobe university bendigo, po box 199, bendigo, victoria, 3552, australia. email: j.soddell(a)bendigo.latrobe.edu.au web page: http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~soddell radio program: possible musics - http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~soddell/pm.htm live music: undue noise - http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~soddell/un.htm

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

Do what I do. Work your ass off to get any kind of thing out there. When I recorded my album it required that I not eat as often. It required that I payed an engineer to record the material. I payed for an artist to do all of the layout and cover art. I payed a duplication company to manufacture the cd. I pay for the postage to send the cd to magazines and radio stations. It required that I payed for the entire thing. I had to get on the phone and call distributers. I found one. Doesn't matter though until I have the money to pay for advertising. I would never complain, and when I do it again it will be done the same way. It can be done all on your own. Look at the Sun City Girls for example. They do everything themselves and make great music. They put out multiple albums a year and sell them all. Without the help of a major record label. Self released my man. It's fun. >From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:36:40 -0800 > >On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:59:57 -0800 >"john schuller" <superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Self released music. > >And for distribution, publicity, and funding of music that requires >significant investment, technology, and coordination to record? > > > > > Of course they are not intrinsically evil. Is anything? Of course > > > > possible to run an ethical business of that size without > > > > inevitable corruption. But are they? > > > > > >So if you were to destroy them, how might you create something that > > >would serve their function without falling victim to this corruption? > >-- >| jzitt(a)josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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Re: Dave Douglas / Uri Caine
by Rob Alley 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

Anyone out there go to the Dave Douglas / Uri Caine gig in Boston, MA this past Sunday? If you did, how about sharing a review of the performance. If you made any sort of recording, please e mail me off-line. Thanks. Rob ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com

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Re: But is it stealing?
by Craig Rath 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

>This seems to me to fit in with Craig's simplistic argument that if you >can't afford to buy a cd, then you have no right to listen to the music. >You can't afford to buy a TV station, or the air time to broadcast a show, >so you rely on the 'goodwill' & hard cash of advertisers to pay the bill for >you. You don't watch the ads, you are stealing from them. Now there's a stretch........... Good luck in debate class buddy. #1, The two situations have nothing in common whatsoever. At all. Nothing. #2, I never said that you shouldn't have the right to listen to the music. I said that you didn't have the right to own the CD. Big difference. Please don't put words in my mouth. Craig M. Rath H: fripp(a)attbi.com W: rathc(a)questarweb.com

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Goldberg Variations (no zorn)
by Eriedell＠aol.com 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

Based on Steve Smith's recommendation, I picked up a copy of roger norrington's Beethoven 9--which is excellent--and while I was at the record store I also picked up the new 3 disc Sony release of Glenn Gould's recordings of the Goldberg Variations. I'll preface this with the embarracing fact that before getting this set I had never so much as heard either the '55 or '81 recordings by Gould; and so, was listening to both for the first time back to back. I've always heard from my friends who are much more classical music buffs than I am that the one you want is the '55 recording--that the '81 recording is not very good, much less is something you'd actually want to own. However, I actually really enjoy the '81 recording. I won't say I like it better than the '55--there are parts of each that stand out--rather I think the two disks compliment each other very well. I don't understand the bad opinions I've heard about the '81 recording. I noticed in the liner notes that this edition of the '81 recording was actually remastered from the original analog tapes. All previous editions used the original digital recording (the tapes were used as a back up) and according to the producers for this edition sound "brittle" as digital technology was in its infancy in '81. I am wondering if anyone has compared the two versions of the '81 recording and if this new edition has changed their mind on it if they originally didn't care for it. In case anyone is wondering the third disc of this set is an interveiw disc which I have yet to listen to entirely. I cut it off after a few minutes the first time I put it on because Gould sounds as if he's gone sadly crazy and I was afraid it would spoil my experience of listening to him play. By the way, I've boycotted paragraphs. andy

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Gangsters and thieves
by Samerivertwice＠aol.com 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

I admit that I occasionally copy legitimate CDs for friends, but I only do it for friends who 1) will buy the legitimate disc if they like the copy I gave them or 2) dispose of the disc if they don't like it. The friends I share music with are "ethical" in this regard. They are all for supporting artists they appreciate and wouldn't settle for a burned copy of a disc if they genuinely like it. So I rationalize this practice with an "ends justify the means" argument. The way I look at it, my friends (and it's a fairly large circle of friends) and I have have benefited many artists by illegally copying their discs. Example: I made a copy of the Tom Waits discs "Bone Machine" and "Small Change" for my friend Gary. He loved them so much that he went out and bought Waits's entire catalogue. This same practice turned me on to a slew of "alt-country" bands a few years ago when a friend gave me a mix disc containing Whiskeytown, the Asylum Street Spankers, Lambchop, Wilco, the Waco Brothers and others. My collection now boasts over 50 legitimate discs from these and other artists who appeared on that burned mix disc. But I am with Steve (Cuneiform) about stocking one's music collection with illegal copies of legitimate albums. No matter how you slice it, it's wrong. As you can see I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. But I put my money where my mouth is. If I like an artist that I hear on an illegal disc I buy the legit copy. No two ways about it. If I don't like it I don't pass it on (unless I think the receiver will buy the legit copy as a result of hearing the copy). To paraphrase Elvis Costello: Live recordings are for the obsessed and are more often than not amusing and therefore harmless for people to collect without the artist's consent; open trading of studio material is the practice of gangsters and thieves. Tom

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