December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 02 Dec '02

02 Dec '02

Of course they are not intrinsically evil. Is anything? Of course possible to run an ethical business of that size without inevitable corruption. But are they? >From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:19:00 -0800 > >On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 18:51:13 -0800 >"john schuller" <superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Because I wish to see the major labels destroyed. Simple as that. > >Are major labels intrinsically evil? Might it be possible to run an >ethical business of that size, or is corruption inevitable? > >-- >| jzitt(a)josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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burnin' in the heat of . . .
by Matthew Garrington 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

Well, seems like everyone is throwing their two cents in. I have to admit I let a friend borrow and burn Hamster Theatre (a freakin' beautiful Denver band that's on Cuneiform Records). That person is now a fan of Hamster, will definitely attend their live shows, and may very well buy future Hamster Theatre cds. Now, one may argue if that person really liked Hamster Theatre they would have went out and bought it at first listen. I would argue, and this seems to be true for a lot of people newly exposed to creative music, that that burned copy will have the lasting effect of turning that person into a fan who probably otherwise wouldn't be one upon just a listen (or two). Maybe I'm just different from everyone, but I never feel quite satisfied with a burned copy. It just never feels complete. Plus, I always go out of my way to purchase cds from the artists (or from great local record stores, to promote local businesses) when I have the opportunity. I think it'd be interesting to see how much cd purchases have really gone down since the invention of the burner. It really hasn't had an effect on my spending habits. Probably just the opposite. When a friend of mine burned me a copy of Anthony Braxton (whom I hadn't heard before), it inspired me to purchase more of his music. Anyhoo, let's beat a dead horse, shall we. It's the only proper thing to do. (By the way, Cuneiform Records has some brilliant releases!!!!!) Matt G _____________________________________________________________"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin____________________________________________________________ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

Because I wish to see the major labels destroyed. Simple as that. >From: Craig Rath <fripp(a)attbi.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 18:17:08 -0600 > > >Agreed. It's obvious that this is an important issue for Steve. He > >surely puts a lot of time in on his label and his music, so let's honor > >his request and not copy his stuff. a simple request by an artist or > >independent label should be persuasive enough. > >So if an "independent label" ask you to not copy, you won't, but if a major >label asks, you will? Where do you draw the line? > >Don't you just love flexible ethics? > > > >Craig M. Rath >H: fripp(a)attbi.com >W: rathc(a)questarweb.com > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by William Crump 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

Sounds good to me. And the targets have made themselves easier to identify by coalescing into five huge blobs. William Crump ---------- >From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com> > Because I wish to see the major labels destroyed. Simple as that. > >

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CD/music copying/stealing/etc.
by Dan Given 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

What I am failing to understand in this entire argument is why people think that they have a "right" to hear all music that has been recorded. If your argument is that you wouldn't have bought it anyway, then why should you be able to hear it. The way most of society has (unfortunately) developed means that music, like most other things, is a commodity, and has a monetary value placed on it. People in the production chain generally expect something in return for their labor. If you aren't willing to pay that price, why should you hear it? Is it written in the constitution of some countries that we have the right to life, liberty and music? People have said (here, or in other places where this same discussion has taken place) that they would copy, but not buy, a disc because: - they don't know enough about the artist to know if they would like it. Then ask someone whose judgement you trust for a recommendation. - can't afford it (someone said that here). Well, there are lots of things I can't afford (a new car, my own house, a long vacation), etc. Does that mean we are entitled to them anyway? As for copying discs or making compilations for friends to try things out - why not just let them listen to it at your house? Or lend it to them? I lend discs to friends quite frequently that I think they would be interested in. They don't copy them; they keep them for a couple of days or weeks, or even longer depending on how much I trust them and whether I want it back quickly, listen to them, decide if they think it is worth owning or not. They lend me things that I buy or don't buy, or maybe buy something else by that artist. I really don't see the need for making compilations for friends.

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it's stealing
by CuneiWay＠aol.com 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

>If one has no intention of buying a particular album how does making a >copy >of that record take any money out of your labels/artists pockeet? If they >were never going to buy it anyway, their money would have never existed >for >you. Fine. If they aren't going to buy it, then they shouldn't buy it. No one is suggesting that anyone buy something that they don't want to buy and 'consume'. But they shouldn't be able to USE it if they don't buy it. That's the way the admittedly imperfect system works. If they are downloading or copying it and USING it (notice I am saying USING it - obviously if someone copies one of my releases 1,000 times and does absolutely NOTHING with it other than break the CDR in half after burning, then it is NOT having any adverse affect on me), then it's stealing. Period. Don't like my thinking on this? Fine. Ignore this posting. But it's still stealing. Don't try and argue/rationalize your way out of it. And don't say "I am tired of reading this stuff, and don't want to see it any more on this list". What you are really saying is "you are challenging my rationalization, and I don't like that". Again - you think it's ok? I can't convince you otherwise. And as Craig pointed out, it is very easy to copy CDs and because it is so easy, people seem to think it's 'ok'. But bottom line is that (1) the law is on my side in this argument as I am making it here and (2) neither I, nor the artists I represent think it's ok. We think you are stealing from us and we think you are doing something that you know is wrong and either you don't care because you are basically a nasty shifty shithead or you are someone who is able to convince themselves that because it *is* easy that it is ok. And if I am making someone uncomfortable with these postings, then that is precisely my point. Steve Cuneiform Records

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by Craig Rath 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

>Agreed. It's obvious that this is an important issue for Steve. He >surely puts a lot of time in on his label and his music, so let's honor >his request and not copy his stuff. a simple request by an artist or >independent label should be persuasive enough. So if an "independent label" ask you to not copy, you won't, but if a major label asks, you will? Where do you draw the line? Don't you just love flexible ethics? Craig M. Rath H: fripp(a)attbi.com W: rathc(a)questarweb.com

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Re: it's stealing
by Craig Rath 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

At 04:01 PM 12/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >The one question I have to raise is with >the "use" area. How does this play into the area of "borrowing" cd's. Right >now I am borrowing about 20 cd's from a friend of mine. I will enjoy these >cd's for about a month and then return them. Chances are I will not buy any >of the titles after listening to them for that amount of time. >Now even though I never bought these cd's I am using them. This is an issue which is common in the software world as well, and the basic idea behind it is that of "simultaneous use". Since there is still only one copy in use at any one time, there is no harm done. Many software companies allow you to buy one copy of a program and install it on more than one computer, as long as you only use one copy of the program at any one time. Therefore it is ok for you to have it installed at work and at home, since you can only be in one place at any given time. The same I would assume applies to CDs. Since your friend loaned you the CDs, he is unable to use them while you have them. Craig M. Rath H: fripp(a)attbi.com W: rathc(a)questarweb.com

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Re: it's stealing
by john schuller 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

I think Steve is making some very good points. It is good to get these views from an independent label owner. The one question I have to raise is with the "use" area. How does this play into the area of "borrowing" cd's. Right now I am borrowing about 20 cd's from a friend of mine. I will enjoy these cd's for about a month and then return them. Chances are I will not buy any of the titles after listening to them for that amount of time. (I rarely listen to an album more than 5-10 times, I have to move on to the next thing). Now even though I never bought these cd's I am using them. The same for music from the library. Again, those pieces of music are being used without proper "usage" payment to the artist or label. Now again, I am not "for" burning independent releases by labels or artists that do not wish for it. I am just curious as to how this area fits in. Anyone can answer. Thanks, John Schuller >From: CuneiWay(a)aol.com >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: it's stealing >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:39:51 EST > > >If one has no intention of buying a particular album how does making a > >copy > >of that record take any money out of your labels/artists pockeet? If they > >were never going to buy it anyway, their money would have never existed > >for > >you. > >Fine. If they aren't going to buy it, then they shouldn't buy it. No one is >suggesting that anyone buy something that they don't want to buy and >'consume'. > >But they shouldn't be able to USE it if they don't buy it. That's the way >the >admittedly imperfect system works. If they are downloading or copying it >and >USING it (notice I am saying USING it - obviously if someone copies one of >my >releases 1,000 times and does absolutely NOTHING with it other than break >the >CDR in half after burning, then it is NOT having any adverse affect on me), >then it's stealing. Period. > >Don't like my thinking on this? Fine. Ignore this posting. But it's still >stealing. Don't try and argue/rationalize your way out of it. > >And don't say "I am tired of reading this stuff, and don't want to see it >any >more on this list". What you are really saying is "you are challenging my >rationalization, and I don't like that". > >Again - you think it's ok? I can't convince you otherwise. And as Craig >pointed out, it is very easy to copy CDs and because it is so easy, people >seem to think it's 'ok'. But bottom line is that > >(1) the law is on my side in this argument as I am making it here > >and > >(2) neither I, nor the artists I represent think it's ok. We think you are >stealing from us and we think you are doing something that you know is >wrong >and either you don't care because you are basically a nasty shifty shithead >or you are someone who is able to convince themselves that because it *is* >easy that it is ok. > >And if I am making someone uncomfortable with these postings, then that is >precisely my point. > >Steve >Cuneiform Records > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

What I am saying is that I do not mind at all if someone makes copies of my records. What other artists or labels want is totally up to them. I have no problem at all if an artist or label does not wish to have their cd's duplicated. (unless of course it is on a major label. I want to see the major's collapse) I personally do not make cd-r's of any records. So somewhere along the line we miscommunicated something. No problem. >From: CuneiWay(a)aol.com >To: superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com, zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:21:56 EST > >John, > >SINCE you were responding to my posting about copying of my labels >releases, >I assumed what you were saying was meant to have some bearing on my >posting. > >If you didn't mean that, then that's fine; but why are you quoting me when >talking about how you like people to take your music whether they pay for >it >or not? I assumed that this was a rebuttal against my postings. I'm sure >you >can understand why I was confused. I apologize for having dragged you into >this if I was wrong. > >Steve > > >Where did I ever presume to speak for you? You said - "you should not and > >can not presume to speak for me". > >I was speaking for *me*. John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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