December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: But is it stealing?
by Fritz Feger 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

>But this analogy overlooks the crucial difference between material objects >and information: information can be copied and shared almost effortlessly, >while material objects can't be. Basing your thinking on this analogy is >tantamount to ignoring that difference. >Not me, but rather the passage I quoted for your "entertainment. Sorry, I missed that since I did not follow the link... but it certainly did entertain me :-) >"Intellectual property" rather is a term designed to protect the efforts >of the producer who decides to devote them not to produce material objects >but to create immaterial innovations. This is why patent laws exist; >without them you wouldn't get most of the economy working, and many great >inventions would have never seen the sunlight, as I mentioned some mails ago. >The passage I quoted took pains to distinguish copyright law and patent law. I should have said something about this, yes. Those you quote are (see my last mail) caught up into a false disanalogy between material and intellectual property, and their trial to distinguish intellectual property and copyright suffers from this. I shall try to define copyright: To state that the copyright for the music on a CD you buy remains mine is to specify the utilisation contract (dunno the correct legal term in English...) between you and me. It means to restrict the rights on my intellectual property which you purchase in buying my CD to putting this CD into any CD player you like and play it as often and as loud as you want and to whomever you want, but not to multiply the medium and thereby to further broaden the circle of people using my intellectual property. The contract says that if a second copy is required, it has to be purchased again from me or my agent, e.g. my record label. The same with software and single vs. multiple user licenses. And there are further restrictions which are part of the deal and thus subject to copyright. If you like to broadcast a track of my CD, this also requires you to purchase a separate license because, again, this broadens the circle of possible users of my property. >And, as I also mentioned earlier, everyone who commits himself to cite >other people's ideas rather than to pretend they're his thereby accepts >the concept of intellectual property. >Well, they accept the concept of both copyright law and the more banal >point of noting sources for the sake of a reader's research and also to >avoid being accused of plagiarism. And I define plagiarism: theft of intellectual property in the special case that I claim or imply that someone else's intellectual property is mine. To be distinguished from copyright violation where I do not make such a claim but distribute someone's intellectual property further than my contract with the owner allows for. To add my 5 cent to the question if copyright violation is theft: it is not taking away property from the legal owner, and thus not exactly theft, but it is still a violation of property rights, which implies that any moral differences between theft (of material or intellectual property) and copyright violation are hard to argue for. Greetings; Fritz ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.de Fon: 0177 - 6424 020 Fax: 0721 - 151 435 058 Rüttenscheider Str. 253 Eulenstraße 56 45131 Essen 22765 Hamburg 0201 - 455 4555 040 - 3980 4766 ##############################################

2 3

e-mail addresses in Zorn's list archive
by Peter Gannushkin 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Hello All, Several days ago I sent this message to Mr. Rizzi, but never received an answer. I think it is very important issue, so I decided to post it here too: I realized that subscribers' e-mails are openly shown on the list's archive pages. These pages are indexed by search engines, which is good, but it also brings lots of spam messages to the subscribers. It would be really good if the administrator of the list will remove the e-mails from these pages. In addition to that I would say that the possibility to see all e-mail addresses for people who are registered is a bad thing too, as spamers can easily register and then get over 600 addresses for their needs. NP: Shepik, Brad "The Well" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/

1 0

mid & far east recomendations?
by Maciej Nowak 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

hello from poland! can you give me any recomendations (artists, recordings, record labels) about ethnic music of india, arabia and japan? thanks and greetings. maciej

1 0

commodity, community and music
by D Dvb 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

Sorry this is so late, I'm really behind on digests. Since I've read most of these messages on stealing music, here's my two cents. Not trying to justify any moral position or anything, just how I feel. To use Zorn as an example, I've bought 8 Masada albums, 4 Naked City albums, 4 or 5 various albums like the Gift, Big Gundown, etc...most of them new and some at import prices. I own 2 Zorn CDr's, both in print. Now if he's gonna get bent out of shape cause he didn't collect on those two CD's, then, quite frankly, I'll be happy to trade in all 20 or so Zorn albums I own and destroy the CDr's and never listen or discuss his music again. To illustrate one of Skip's points, I've seen Ellery Eskelin play two performances, one with the Black and Parkins (?) trio and an improvised set with Tom Rainey and Paul Plimley. I really enjoyed the Rainey/Plimley set but was a little disappointed with the accordion trio set. So I'm on the fence. Couple that with the fact that most Eskelin CDs I find in stores are new and imports and it means that I just don't listen to him. If someone were to burn me a whole album (gasp!) and I really liked it, I may or may not buy that burned album but I'll probably buy 4 or 5 other Eskelin albums eventually. It really is true. I guess what I'm trying to say is that (especially for the music discussed on this list) at some point, there seems to be two viewpoints: music as art/communication/spiritual yogurt or music as commodity. I value artists/people who come from the first perspective and support them (even ones I don't like) as much as I can, even if it doesn't mean throwing money at them every chance I get. Do artists only appreciate support if it comes in the form of money? I trust that artists like Eskelin, Zorn, etc. aren't trying to bleed me of every possible penny. I expect that they trust their audience not to be trying to rip them off or "steal" their music. How do you "steal" music anyway? And honestly, I lose respect for artists who would treat their audiences as possible customers/consumers first and listeners/people second. I mean, it's nice to get paid but at least people are listening which I thought was the whole point in the first place. --davy np Captain Beefheart "Safe as Milk" _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

1 0

Re: industrial capitalism is organized crime
by Ellery Eskelin 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

"Crowmeat Bob" <crowmeat(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > Ellery, when are you bringing the Jazz Trash folks back to North Carolina? I > for one would pay to see you again. Good culture is what my spendin money is > for, regardless of how much free junk I get. Howdy, I'd like to come back down there, it has been awhile. But for whatever reasons it just hasn't been in the cards. The folks at AIM have offered to produce a concert for us but getting enough other venues on board south of the mason-dixon has been a little tough. And for whatever other reasons we've been getting more offers from other parts of the country (west coast coming up again in January) and most often in Europe. So what with that and schedules... So I would simply tell you what I tell everyone who asks, let the folks who promote concerts in your area know that you wanna hear us. That seems to work better than anything else. Thanks for asking... EE ================================= ELLeRY ESKELiN/MiCHELLE VAn NaTTA RaMiChElLeRy/PrImE SoUrCe PrOdUcTiOnS http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/ =================================

1 0

Song Rights
by DAN KUEHN 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

All this talk of copy-rights has got me thinking about an idea I've pondered before: What are the legal requirements of recording a cover of a tune (like, say, Bill Frisell's "Tales from the Farside") and making it available on the 'net as a streaming or downloadable file? No "hard copy" at all, but searchable by the title or composer of the tune... The idea is to lure fans of these somewhat obscure artists that I like to hear my covers, as well as my originals. At this point, I'm just looking for critical input, not money - in fact, I'd be delighted to pay the composer 8 cents or whatever for each free download from my site, as well as including a link to the composer's site. Frankly, I'm not expecting much traffic. Would it be hard to get permission? Would I approach the artist, or the publisher? Just wondering, Dan

1 0

Re: Matt Shipp & R. Campbell requests
by Kurt Gottschalk 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

nu bop is interesting. not my fave shipp record, nor my fave jazz/electronic thing in thirsty ear, but it's certainly good. it's krunch time is a solid hard jazz trio - maybe not the most adventurous, but very good. kurt >From: Efrén del Valle <efrendv(a)yahoo.es> >To: zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com >Subject: Matt Shipp & R. Campbell requests >Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:13:43 +0100 (CET) > >HI, > >I'm curious about Matthew Shipp's "Nu Bop" and Roy >Campbell's "It's Krunchin' Time" (or sthg like that) >albums on Thirsty ear. Any comments that make me want >to place an order tonight? > >Thanks in advance. > >Best, > >Efrén del Valle > >_______________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! Messenger >Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis! >Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

1 0

letter from Joan Jett to Rolling Stone
by skip Heller 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

An open letter to Rolling Stone by Joan Jett I tried to find some cleverly worded way to express my disgust with your "Women in Rock" issue, but what I have to say is really quite simple: You guys are completely retarded. By Rolling Stone standards, Rock is no longer a style of music but a trendy costume to be whipped up by expensive stylists and slapped onto the latest pop tart barbie doll. Give a girl some tight pants and a spiky bracelet and POOF! She ROCKS! Your poor choice of cover girls and featured artists brings to mind the Sports Illustrated swimsuit editions. There is nothing necessarily wrong with the breast-baring models inside...but we all understand that they have NOTHING TO DO WITH SPORTS--Which just might be offensive to women who are interested in sports or who might even be (gasp) real athletes. Yes, Britney has a talented stylist and yes, somebody gave Shakira a Guns & Roses t-shirt to wear...but they ARE NOT NOW NOR WILL THEY EVER BE ROCK. Maybe it's naive of me to expect any glimmer of rock'n'roll credibility OR respect for women from a magazine whose cover shot is regularly a naked underweight actress. The thing is, I AM a woman musician with a rock band, and as we all are, I am STARVED for any little crumb of recognition that real women rockers might be thrown. So like a sucker I find myself short another five bucks...and pissed enough to write my first letter to an editor. Avril Lavigne gets some studded accessories from Hot Topic so now she's "upholding the brazen tradition of teenage outrage"???!! Are you SERIOUS? And could someone please explain to me why people keep insisting on referring to PINK as rock? Wasn't she doing the white girl hip hop thing a minute ago? Yeah, she performed on the Aerosmith tribute show --big deal..she was on the Janet Jackson tribute show just before that--Whatever's trendy. WHO CARES. She's a Spice Girl reject...but I digress. Jewel and Mandy friggin' Moore have full page features as Rock Icons...Meanwhile Joan Jett gets one line. ONE LINE. Joan Jett & the Blackhearts, who have never stopped touring, recently did 10 days in the Middle East playing for the troops stationed in Afghanistan. In AFGHANISTAN, Joan would come onstage wearing a birkha, which she ripped off and stomped on before blazing through the purest and nastiest rock show ANYWHERE. But even in the RS WOMEN IN ROCK issue, a story like that gets ONE SENTENCE on the bottom of the last page of Random Notes. Britney's Rock credentials? Well, she butchers the song "I Love Rock'n'Roll" on her latest record, and when asked about it the genius replies "Well, I've always loved Pat Benatar." And SHE is your Rock issue cover girl?? You should be REALLY embarrassed. Sleater Kinney was the only rock group listed on the cover...and they got only half a page. Ashanti, the r&b back up singer who can't seem to do anything without "featuring Jah Rule," has two pages. What about the Donnas? The Yeah Yeah Yeahs? The Distillers? A mag like RS has the power to shine important light on groups like these-- instead they are afterthoughts, and that valuable spotlight is wasted on the same overexposed pop princesses WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ROCK. In your own letter from the editor you have the hypocritical balls to say "rock radio won't touch female artists, while the pop factory keeps churning out soundalike clones, and ambitious musicians with something to say find themselves left out in the cold." The pages that follow those words are a blatant display that Rolling Stone magazine is happily working for the factory now too. If the issue had been called "Women in Music"...or maybe "Some Cute Girls with Top 10 Records out Right Now"..I would have no beef with it. Corny as it may sound, ROCK is something which is still meaningful and even sacred to some of us. Use the word "rock" in bold letters next to a picture of Britney Fucking Spears, and you're turning your whole publication into a joke...and an offensive joke at that. -Joan Jett --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now -- Jen

1 0

Re: becking lips
by Crowmeat Bob 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

I've heard that the Flaming Lips were acting as a back-up band for Beck, but the one first-hand account I got was less than complimentary. My friend who saw them is always somewhat oblique about why he dislikes something, but he was undergoing some sort of Beck listening boycott when I saw him last. Of course, he changed his tune when he heard the CD I'd put together of Beck rarities which rivalled the one I had obtained from him previously. (including landmarks like "Death is Coming to Get Me" and his cover of "Devil Got My Woman") But I digress. I thought the idea of the 'Lips backing Beck sounded like it had great potential. They're an eminent psychedelic 'pop' band with lavish production techniques and can get a powerful mood sunk into your bones if you give them half a chance. But I guess it all depends on how well they mesh with Mr Hansen. np: Ground Zero - Standards (purchased new, by jiminy) >From: "s~Z" <keithsz(a)concentric.net> >To: <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: industrial capitalism is organized crime >Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:58:09 -0800 > > >>>np: flaming lips - in a priest driven ambulance<<< > >How is this? I'm unfamiliar with them, but understand they will bring their >small furry animals to Santa Barbara Thursday night to groove with Beck. Am >I in for a treat? > >np: The Anatomy of Addiction - God > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

1 0

With respect to Gould's The Goldberg Variations
by Tosh 04 Dec '02

04 Dec '02

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/teachout.htm -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com

1 0