December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

beck's ch-ch-ch-changes
by aaron chua 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

has anyone else noticed similarities between track 2(?) "paper tiger" frm beck's new album and gainsbourg's "melody de nelson" or is it just me?? great track all the same but so's "melody... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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Fwd: Really Eerie Music (R.E.M.)
by TagYrIt＠aol.com 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

In a message dated 12/5/2002 4:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, sstarkris(a)hotmail.com writes: > Hey folks, > I would like to hear some more really eerie music. Music that brings you > nightmares, as worse as possible. > There's some stuff from the second side of King Crimson's Lizard album that scared the bejesus out of me the first time I heard it, and still does. Dale.

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Radical Jewish Culture was Re: Zorn and "An Open Letter of American Jews to Our Government"?
by Herb Levy 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Efrén del Valle <efrendv(a)yahoo.es> wrote: responding to Arthur Gadney's: > >As far as I remember, Anthony Coleman mentions in > >the "Sabbath In > >Paradise" > >documentary, that part of Jewish character is "asking > >questions without > >expecting answers". Perhaps the whole RJC has to be > >seen in that light. > >Could be, but I really think that when you're >promoting a movement that carries the word "Radical" >you should be really clear about what that exactly >means, specially considering how easy it seems to >cross the line between coherence and dumb >fundamentalism. > >Moreover, perhaps painting, cinema, music and any >other art forms do not really need explanations and >should be perceived in a more physical way as opposed >to more cerebral conceptions. But when referring to a >movement that's supposed to be representing a whole >generation or an ethnic group like in this case, using >that sounds to me more as an excuse. > >If you start >something like the RJC you should be ready to give >clear explanations if it really has some solid >foundations. What includes you in that group? Which >are the features that bring all those people and their >artistic expression together besides the fact of being >born as Jews? Efrén, What have you seen that makes you think that RJC is "supposed to be representing a whole generation or an ethnic group"? When I see someone writing about "radical black poetry" or "radical gay theater" I know by the very use of the modifier "radical" that the person using the phrase recognizes that there is indeed other black poetry or gay theater that is not radical. I assume the same about the phrase "Radical Jewish Culture". To posit something called "Radical Jewish Culture" by definition means the coiner of the phrase realizes there is some Jewish culture which is NOT radical, otherwise the first word of the term would be redundant. & to respond to your later post on this thread, in English "radical" does NOT necessarily bring with it a sense of "purity" with or without ethnic/racial overtones. For that matter, what have you seen from Zorn himself, rather than from someone else interpreting or criticizing the series of CDs, that the sense of the term is even mainly political, rather than primarily a marketing strategy, distinguishing a particular series of CDs from those that are part of the Composer Series, of film music, of "New Japan" etc? Looking at the overall releases put out by Tzadik as a whole, it's very clear that Zorn does NOT think the rubric "Radical Jewish Culture" applies to the output of the entire ethnic group (or even of some specific subset of that group). Zorn has released many discs by Jewish composers and performers, which are NOT included in the RJC series, but instead has released under the composer series, the film music series, etc. (He's also made similar distinctions for discs by Japanese composer/performers, not all of which have been released as part of the New Japan series.) Based on the fact that he's making some kind of distinction between recordings by Jewish composers & performers that he has included in RJC & those which he has included in some other series that Tzadik has released, it seems obvious that he has something more specific in mind when he uses the term than simply "music by Jewish musicians." The CDs that Zorn HAS released as RJC, seem to fall into a three categories: the largest category (I think) is the various groups who do non-traditional forms of klezmer; there are discs in which the composer/performers are using some kind of non-klezmer, often non-musical, & sometimes autobiographical, thematic material with roots in Jewish culture as the basis of their work (like the Richard Teitelbaum Golem disc, Shelley Hirsch's O Little Town of East New York; Zeena Parkins Maul-Mouth-Betrayer, etc); and the 3-4 discs of "Great Jewish Music" - "radical" re-interpretations of music by pop musicians of Jewish descent. To my ears, the first two of these categories are all some kind of re-examination of Jewish culture through the means of new music. Exactly how radical any of those transformations may be is a matter of taste and prior knowledge of the cultural tradition in question, but from a musical standpoint many of the approaches taken are in line with music which in other contexts has been called "radical." By the early part of the 21st century, all of these approaches may not be musically radical, but again that's a matter of taste as much as anything else. In other words, I'm not sure that the term "radical" in this context necessarily has the political overtones that seem to concern folks in the frequent discussions of RJC. The third category of discs have been somewhat more problematic. People will get a wild hair up their butt because Serge Gainsbourg didn't think of himself as Jewish or whatever, but I think this misses the point in several ways, the most important being that the liner note discussions of Bachrach, Bolan, Gainsbourg, etc. (have there been any others yet?) are funny. Very funny. So much so that the "Great Jewish Music" series has to be seen as at least partly tongue in cheek. And, getting back to the description of the other two types of RJC discs, at least some of the re-workings of the songs by these composers could rightfully be categorized as musically radical. A couple of years ago, I wrote to this list that some sense of what Zorn means by RJC could possibly be determined from the quotes from Gershon Scholem that he's used on some of the Masada discs, combined with the writing quoted in the packaging of Coleman's RJC discs, particularly from the Selfhaters discs. Thinking about it again, I'd add the liner notes to the Great Jewish Music series and add Lenny Bruce's schtick about dividing everything in the world as being either Jewish or Goyish. Using this last as a yardstick, needing to identify a specific political platform for a series of CDs that is both musically and politically all over the map, MAY be very, very Goyish. Bests, Herb -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb(a)eskimo.com

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Re: Really Eerie Music (R.E.M.)
by thesubtlebody 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

> I would like to hear some more really eerie music. > Music that brings you = > nightmares, as worse as possible.... > Please, anyone, let me know of some more really > eerie nightmarish music = > out there. Music you should not play at night. Not all of this is soundtrack-scary, but it all scares me: --Krzysztof Penderecki, "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" --Masonna, take your pick --Wilkinson/Jaworzyn's sax/guitar duo --Kaoru Abe solo alto saxophone --Iancu Dumitrescu and/or Ana-Maria Avram, not sure which of their stuff is the scariest, but there is a string quartet by one of them that I remember was pretty intimidating. "Holzweg"? --Anaal Nathrakh, THE CODEX NECRO (I am really new to metal, but learning; this record scares the bejesus out of me, very noisy and wrong and intense) --Omit, INTERIOR DESOLATION (maybe less scary and more spooky, lots of field recording of swine) --Iannis Xenakis, PERSEPOLIS and maybe parts of LA LEGENDE D'EER __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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Re: Really Eerie Music
by Greg.Mills＠JWT.com 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Kris Visser: >>I would like to hear some more really eerie music. Music that brings you = >>nightmares, as worse as possible. The one piece of music that makes me look over my back is Varese's Poeme Electronique. There is this one moment where there is a sample of a woman sighing that sounds not of this frigging earth. It sends the little hairs on my neck into jumping jacks. i'm not sure if it's even a sigh...more of a lowing. Grofe's "Grand Canyon Suite" used to send me into hiding as a small kid. I still hide from it now, but for different reasons.

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Re: Really Eerie Music (R.E.M.)
by Steve Smith 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:00:48 +0100 Kris Visser <sstarkris(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > I would like to hear some more really eerie > music. Off the top of my head: Penderecki - Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima Ligeti - Lux aeterna, Atmospheres (more for the Kubrick associations than for any intrensic reason, since this is beautiful music...) Maxwell Davies - Eight Songs for a Mad King Diamanda Galas - just about anything that features her original music rather than cover versions, but in particular, Plague Mass and Schrei X David Lynch and Angelo Badalamenti's Industrial Symphony No. 1 gives me the willies, too, but that's as much for what you see as what you hear. I'm sure there's lots more, but those come readily to mind. I did an article on scary music for Halloween, and was amazed by how much purportedly scary music just seemed lame and tepid - first and foremost the 'Hellraiser' soundtrack music composed by Coil and turned down by Clive Barker for being "too scary" - pah. Steve Smith ssmith36(a)sprynet.com NP - Albert Ayler, "Spirits Rejoice," 'Nuits de la Fondation Maeght' (Water)

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Re: Really Eerie Music (R.E.M.)
by William Crump 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

The Ligeti "Requiem," lights out, really overdrive those speakers. See what happens. Wm. Crump ---------- From: "Kris Visser" <sstarkris(a)hotmail.com> Hey folks, I would like to hear some more really eerie music. Music that brings you nightmares, as worse as possible. Please, anyone, let me know of some more really eerie nightmarish music out there. Music you should not play at night. Any record I have not mentioned.

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RIP Mal Waldron
by Perfect Sound Forever 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

<http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=17149&afl=mnew>

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RIP Mal Waldron
by Michael Berman 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

fyi Reuters reporting Mal Waldron died Dec 2 from cancer complications at the age of 77. mb

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RE: Radical Jewish Culture
by Oppenheim, Phil 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Not sure of the relevance here, but -- np: "Tanz!" by Dave "The Jewish Benny Goodman" Tarras -----Original Message----- From: Ken Waxman [mailto:mingusaum@yahoo.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 3:44 PM To: Herb Levy; zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: Radical Jewish Culture Yeah, If I remember correctly about music, it was: Lawrence Welk is goyish and Count Basie is very Jewish. Now who's going to argue with that? Ken Waxman --- Herb Levy <herb(a)eskimo.com> wrote. , I'd > add the liner notes to the Great Jewish Music series > and add Lenny > Bruce's schtick about dividing everything in the > world as being > either Jewish or Goyish. ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum(a)yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca _______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list

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