December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Painkiller live / Thanks for the Turntable pointers
by richard ladew 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

Hoping I get Painkiller live for Christmas..... Anyone know how Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia is pronounced?? Is it true that Painkiller is getting back together for more shows? BTW: Thanks so much for all the turntable suggestions. NP:James Brown's Funky Christmas next: Cave In "Jupiter"

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Re: naked europe city tour?
by rusegarden 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

SUPPOSEDLY it is being planned for a handful of dates in June 2003. that is all i know. anyone else? Ferris?..........Buehler? --------------------------------- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:36:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jorge Gallegos <abductor77(a)yahoo.com> Subject: naked europe city tour? To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com --0-1396838514-1039257412=:11652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii anybody know shit about a Naked City Europe reunion tour this summer? so is the word. ---------------------------------

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USA vs. Europe
by Efrén del Valle 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

HI, O.K, after checking some of my dictionaries (which I should've done before) I found many reasons to admit English-speakers are in possession of the truth here! :-) >From the Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary: RADICAL: "pertaining to the root or origin; fundamental" "change from accepted or traditional forms" "forming a basis or foundation" but ALSO!!!! "person who holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles; extremist" "favoring drastic political, economic, or social reforms" "irrational" So we have a term that is controversial in itself and contains opposite connotations, which makes me go back to the same questions over and over again and bother you with an issue that you must have gotten bored of a while ago. Sorry! Best, EfrÃ©n del Valle n.p: Vienna Art Orchestra "The Minimalism of Erik Satie" ___________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sorteos Consulta si tu nÃºmero ha sido premiado en Yahoo! Sorteos http://loteria.yahoo.es

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Re: Radical Jewish Culture
by Herb Levy 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

Fritz Feger <mail(a)fritzfeger.de> wrote: >Thank you all for the illuminating discussion on this! I must say that it >leaves a slightly incoherent taste about the whole RJC thing. I second the >argument that, if you label something like that, it would be naive to >believe that it isn't read politically. Sorry if this seems redundant. Looking at the aggregate of the 70 or so discs released in the RJC series of Tzadik, I think it's at least equally naive to ONLY read the term politically. Many of the works presented as RJC have no possible overt political content, so theorizing that the term is being used strictly in its political sense is absurd. If the range of what has been presented under the rubric of RJC is incoherent based on your understanding of the phrase, the fault really may be with how you're interpreting the phrase. If you try to reconcile your theory with the actual practice you're supposedly analyzing, you'll find a lot of practice that this particular theory fails to take into account. As Wittgenstein wrote, Look to the use. -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb(a)eskimo.com

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Zorn CD covers
by Tosh 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

Her. It's her face. No, I am pretty sure it's a male. The image came from a Georges Bataille book : Tears of Eros. I think the photograph was taken in 1910 or 1909 (not sure about the date). Someone gave that photograph to Bataille, and it was the image that took him on his ecstasy=death=sexual trip. Right now there is a good biography that just came out on Bataille. It's on Verso. -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com

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RE: The English language -- a long, painful extrusion
by Perfect Sound Forever 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

>From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner(a)butler.edu> >Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:13:40 -0500 > >One contributing factor to the decline of written English is all this >wonderful technology we have. The phone started the trend; we no longer >have to write letters. Television and cinema continued the trend reducing >the amount reading. The Internet is the nasty culprit >currently. Email--what seemed like a return to written >communication--turned out to amplify the laziness of spoken language. >Very few people pay attention to punctuation, capitalization, or >spelling, let alone more advanced grammatical concerns in their emails. >Most charge through the writing of an email and shoot it off as quickly >as possible. Is it really too difficult to use spell check? The Net is a great scapegoat. Religious nuts and newscasters love to say that it's destroying the youth of today, etc.. I don't believe that letters that were written with pens/pencils/typewriters were necessarily more thoughtful. It's actually easier to re-type and correct a letter on a computer (I find, at least). It always has to do with who's the author. As you point out, there's plenty of people on this list who have intelligent things to say. >The current American educational system, of which I am a part, is also >to blame. There's no question that it's a huge problem! Best, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine with warped perspectives perfect-sound(a)furious.com http://www.perfectsoundforever.com

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Re: Zorn CD covers (was Re: Radical Jewish Culture)
by Crowmeat Bob 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

it could be just too easy to read christian iconography into any old image, particularly involving martyrdom, because it seems to have formed a monopoly on the idea. Or mother and child, or armageddon, what-have-you. It's a system of religious capture that includes many aspects of previous religions, and in some modern forms, even adopts new ones to retain its control or continue its spread. but I doubt Zorn was trying to develop a specifically christian rhetoric of images in his choice of album covers. Some thoughts on the Jewishness of the radicle-izing root-pullers: When Zorn started on his Jewish identity trip, I was a little disappointed in him, not because of an anti-semitism on my part, but because I had already perceived his music as existing far beyond any such limited formulation of cultural identity. The beauty of his music for me was at least in part due to the fact that it held no particular culture above any other; it recognized the sphere of influence as being immanent and without hierarchy. But that doesn't mean I dislike the music or refuse to allow that it catalyzes radical becomings. And I'm really not too concerned with what the category explicitly ordains. I'll listen to it like any other music. We should all recognize that categories are at best a method of convenience for organizing music and hardly absolute. I think I would take issue with the use of the word 'purity' as well. I'd interrupt anybody using it to describe any music I hold dear. It should be a word reserved for chemistry, and even then only in relative terms. (e.g. "This acid is a hell of a lot more pure than that last batch. Let's do it tomorrow night, too.") --atomwrec >From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt(a)metatronpress.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: Zorn CD covers (was Re: Radical Jewish Culture) >Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:17:22 -0800 > >On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:10:33 -0600 >"Sanchez" <lupcato(a)flash.net> wrote: > > > > I find amusing the idea that the covers of albums by an artist who > > > is unmistakeably Jewish "can only bring to mind" Christian > > > iconography. > > > > > Sure, what with them not having any iconography in common... > >Hmm, this seems to conflict with the message to which I was responding, >in which you mapped the images to the crucifixion, John the Baptist, and >Madonna and Child. I think I can be correct in saying that these cannot >conceivably be considered Jewish images, no? > >-- >| jzitt(a)josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | >| GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | >| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | >| Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: Radical Jewish Culture (lengthy)
by Fritz Feger 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

Herb, I'm sorry of being (co-)responsible for redundancies in your posting, and to contribute to talking issues to death. I did neither mean nor say that me or anyone else will read Zorn's use of the term "radical" ONLY politically, or that it has to be understood STRICTLY in its political sense. You are reading that into my remark that "it would be naive to believe that it isn't read politically". Why didn't you read it like: "by some and maybe among other readings"? That is how I meant it. (I'm tempted to quote Dave Douglas with his advanced interview technique, but I won't) My own (hypothetical) political reading of RJC's "radical", for example, resulted from my inability to figure out in which other e.g. musical or "cultural identity" or whatever sense it could be intended. In case that, as you "wrote earlier, the aesthetic radicality of any particular musical item is a matter of taste & prior knowledge more than anything else" (what one could well dispute, but I won't), then I can claim for me the right to find RJC music not overly radical, or at least less radical than certain non-RJC Zorn disks, can't I? To set that straight: I'm perfectly fine with Zorn calling a CD series RJC, and I'm aware that you cannot change such a label after a bunch of instances. I just had this unexplainable desire to learn what this is meant to tell me. Maybe I should rather be peacefully waiting until suddenly the, as you put it, "sort of self-defining" process occurs. >If you try to reconcile your theory with the actual practice you're >supposedly analyzing, you'll find a lot of practice that this particular >theory fails to take into account. >As Wittgenstein wrote, Look to the use. Are you trying to tell me that my use and understanding of "radical" is "theory", and yours is not only the same as Zorn's (inevitably so by the two of you being American?) but "actual practice", as if there were only one actual, i.e. right practice? If you like to rely on Wittgenstein on that matter, you'd better respect my "European" discourse (and Zorn, who has travelled Europe and sells I don't know how much of his records over here). But anyway I don't believe that there's so much of a difference in the use of the term in Europe and America as you imply: some Germans have a radical haircut too, and "radical animal rights activist" or "radical muslims" refers to the same kind of people/non-lingual practice on both sides of the Atlantic ocean. Just for the record. Even the latest Wittgenstein knows to tell adequate use from inadequate. To advocate an account where the meaning of a concept is determined by its use doesn't mean that I am free to use the word "radical" in some sense which I pick to my taste. On the contrary: a meaning theory of use demands that my use of "radical" is the same use as (one of the) uses other speakers fancy. You may not leave the game; there is no private language with Wittgenstein. If this is true, then you could simply teach us Europeans what the American Zorn means by "radical". Go ahead! >I also suspect that the definition of what Zorn includes in the series >may have drifted over the years: while he may have had some more strict >ideas early on, these ideas may have loosened, to the point where the >title is a quite effective marketing ploy which he'd be a fool to drop. That may well be the case. I don't mind. I'm simply curious what it was intended to transport some day. Fritz np: Naked City (still my all time favourite of Zorn's) ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.com ##############################################

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Re: The English language -- a long, painful extrusion
by Fritz Feger 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

William, the things you report from your wife's experience could also have happened in Germany, or rather happen over here every day. Seems to be a global development. (Or has it always been that way?) >If I were Dave Douglas, I'd be nervous and irritable at interviews too. If I >thought American interviewers were bad, I might be even more defensive and >precise when interviewed by someone for whom English is not their first >language. Most likely a foreign interviewer will work harder to be precise >than an American interviewer, but how can he know that going into the >interview? Just a proposal: let him complete his sentences, at least one sentence. I'd rather try to be more patient in correcting all those terrible, carreer-destroying misunderstandings and thereby avoid appearing rude to the interviewer with my paranoia which could, more paranoia!, annoy him and get him to misunderstand me on purpose! > > And to make my interviewer working harder after him saying not > > even a whole sentence: I beg your pardon. > >[...] Is the "I beg your pardon" part you begging >my pardon, or DD begging EdV's pardon, or EdV begging DD's pardon? Or >something else? (In this version, I provide the second point of perspective. >Which is better?) It was your pardon I was begging. I thought it to be an odd, 19th century-ish pedagogical method to try to make someone work harder by interrupting him after a couple of words. But I think I didn't get the whole point of your alternative responses, surely due to the language barrier. > > If DD had considered Efrén's > > English as dangerously weak (why should he?) there would have been many > > more polite / didactic / operational ways to tackle that. > >I agree. But in a world where John Zorn can get away with the rudeness he >gets away with, I found Dave Douglas' responses blunt, but not outright >rude. I think this is the ideal point to confess my deep admiration for Dave Douglas as a musician. And to confess my admiration for some outright rudenesses of Zorn I had the luck to witness. But nevertheless... Fritz ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.com ##############################################

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Really Eerie Music (R.E.M.)
by Kris Visser 08 Dec '02

08 Dec '02

Hey folks, I would like to hear some more really eerie music. Music that brings you nightmares, as worse as possible. Can anyone give me some recommends of really eerie music that I haven't heard yet. Especially in the classical field there's a lot of music that I haven't heard yet. But any recommend is much appreciated. These are some records which I really love and I think that are really eerie: Naked City - Grand Guignol Painkiller - Execution Ground Kronos Quartet - Black Angels Keiji Haino - Watasi Dake Bernard Herrmann - Psycho OST Goblin - Suspiria OST Please, anyone, let me know of some more really eerie nightmarish music out there. Music you should not play at night. Any record I have not mentioned. I need help! Thanks, Kris

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