January 2003 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

RE: M_Boats: Mast and thru deck wiring?
by Randy Graves 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

Hi Doug, Our boats are similar in age, mine is hull #407 and mine came with a factory electrical system. I have a background as an Elec. Tech. and wanted to throw in by 2 cents worth. I personally would secure the cables to the lights & antenna by attaching a strain relief near each device. The weight of the wire/cables in the mast I believe would cause a vulnerability over time. What I am calling a strain relief is a plastic loop that looks like the letter "P" when viewed from the side. The wire runs through the opening and a screw through the leg. The idea is to put the strain relief around the wire and cause a "pinch" friction fit by securing the strain relief with the screw to the mast or similiar I would also secure/seal the ends where you make the connections, especially with the coax, so as to minimize moisture seeping up the braided shield (causes corrision). To seal up the ends of cable/coax I think good quality electrical tape will do the trick, be sure and stretch it tight. Also, if you put a bit of a goose-neck bend in the cable/coax between the strain relief and lamp/antenna it gives you some working room and sheds water away from the connections. On the inside of our boat the wires run along the inside cabin and are encased in what I call spy-wrap (a plastic wire dressing material that winds around wires. We also used strain relief's to attache the cable/spy-wrap bundle along the inside of the cabin ceiling, using the spare threads of existing deck hardware bolts. The only part of our factory electrical system that is less than satisfactory is the 4-prong deck connector. It is rubber and has cracked and deterioted over time (15 years). It has a several inch pig-tail so that only the wires penetrate the top of the cabin. Several inches of wire then lead to the 4-wire electrical connector. I believe this is the way to go and not to try and do a through-deck connector for the wires to the lights. Our coax mounts as you describe using a through-deck coax connector and works fine. Our battery mounts under the V-berth and is a group 24 enclosed in a plastic battery box. We also have a switch/fuse panel located about shin height of your right leg as you sit on the porta-potty <grin> Hope this helps, sounds like a great winter project. Randy Graves M-15 #407 -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kelch [mailto:doug_kelch@yahoo.com] Sent: Sun 1/19/2003 8:40 AM To: Montgomery Cc: Subject: M_Boats: Mast and thru deck wiring? I am about to install a electrical system in my M15. This includes a masthead tricolor and a masthead antenna. I have two questions about the external wiring and two about internal wiring. External: 1 - with a combined coax and 3 wire cable and 2 wire cable is there a need for strain relief at the top of the mast or is the distribution over the three fixtures (masthead, steaming light and antenna) enough? If needed, how do you do it? 2a - Thru deck wiring - I bought a thru deck fitting for the coax and after the connectors are on both ends there is 15/16" left for the deck thickness. Is this sufficient for an M15. If not what do you recommend? 2b - What do you recommend or use for the mast wiring thru deck. All of the fittings in the catalogs look ok for 35 footers. I am mentally down to using a trailer wiring harness thru a compression fitting from West Marine. Any Ideas? Internal wiring: 1 - what do you use to route and attach the wiring to the ceiling and walls? 2 - the battery specs say a gel cell battery can be "operated" in any position. Does this mean you can install it laying on it's side safely? Thanks Doug Kelch M15 #310 "Seas the Day" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Mast and thru deck wiring?
by Doug Kelch 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

I am about to install a electrical system in my M15. This includes a masthead tricolor and a masthead antenna. I have two questions about the external wiring and two about internal wiring. External: 1 - with a combined coax and 3 wire cable and 2 wire cable is there a need for strain relief at the top of the mast or is the distribution over the three fixtures (masthead, steaming light and antenna) enough? If needed, how do you do it? 2a - Thru deck wiring - I bought a thru deck fitting for the coax and after the connectors are on both ends there is 15/16" left for the deck thickness. Is this sufficient for an M15. If not what do you recommend? 2b - What do you recommend or use for the mast wiring thru deck. All of the fittings in the catalogs look ok for 35 footers. I am mentally down to using a trailer wiring harness thru a compression fitting from West Marine. Any Ideas? Internal wiring: 1 - what do you use to route and attach the wiring to the ceiling and walls? 2 - the battery specs say a gel cell battery can be "operated" in any position. Does this mean you can install it laying on it's side safely? Thanks Doug Kelch M15 #310 "Seas the Day" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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RE: M_Boats: Knockdown Modifications M17#305
by Thomas Howe 18 Jan '03

18 Jan '03

Thanks for sharing your insights, Cordell. Where do you sail #305? > [Original Message] > From: Cordell Pool <cordell(a)fluidyneengineering.com> > To: Montgomery_Boats@Mailman. Xmission. Com <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Date: 1/18/2003 12:55:37 PM > Subject: M_Boats: Knockdown Modifications M17#305 > > Thanks for sharing your experiences and modifications, I have always been > worried about a possible knockdown and what the result would be. Its great > to hear about other peoples experiences and discussion in this area, since I > have always worried about my first experience being my last. > > I have made some modifications to my boat to provide additional security in > case of a knockdown. I commonly sail in very windy and wavy conditions so > it wouldn't be a simple manner of a one-time self righting. Unless > something changed, further knockdowns would occur over and over. I don't > have any additional floatation, so if the boat were to ship too much water > in a knockdown(s) it would evetually sink. The boat as a whole would have > to be sealed sufficiently to provide bouyancy until conditions could be > remedied. The weak points I found were, the cabin door (hatch), cockpit > locker, and sink drain. Furthermore, I think that keeping the heavy gear > secure in the bottom of the boat will add a lot of self-righting stability. > > The standard two-piece 1/4 inch hatch covers did not look very secure, and > even if they could withstand the water force, they would still leak alot. I > have constructed a one-piece hatch cover out of 7/16 plywood which fits very > snuggly into the grove in the trim boards and under the lid. I think that > this hatch cover would withstand a fairly long-term exposure to waves and > cockpit water without leaking too much (it also provides better protection > against mosquitos). Whenever the wind picks up I make sure to always sail > with the the main hatch closed securely. > > For the large cockpit locker, I just riveted on standard hasps and they > don't seem to interfere with the normal sailing operations. I put a couple > on because the forces could be quite large on the locker lid in the event of > a knockdown. I also put a rubber weather strip around the inside edge of > the locker, that when the locker is locked down provides a fairly > water-tight seal. > > The access boards under the berths were a little more difficult to put > latches on, since I wanted them to be flush below the cushions. I found > some hardware at the local Ace that worked alright. Again these need to be > very strong to withstand the forces during a knockdown. > > I haven't overcome the drain issue yet but I suppose a check valve would > work. > > I agree with the comment I read about reefing early. The Montgomery seems > to sail very solidly with reefed sails, and suprising, doesn't lose too much > speed. I commonly sail with about a 70% jib and a fully (double) reefed > mainsail. With this arrangement and some pretty good winds I can average 6 > knots without too much instablity in the waves. Also a little weather helm > due to the small jib. > > Cordell Pool > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats --- Thomas Howe --- Real Estate questions? Here's Howe! --- Your Link To Homes In Lawrence, Kansas --- Reece and Nichols. ACRES Realtors --- 785-550-1169 --- Thomas(a)TEHowe.com --- http://www.ThomasHoweOnline.com O --------(\----------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

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Knockdown Modifications M17#305
by Cordell Pool 18 Jan '03

18 Jan '03

Thanks for sharing your experiences and modifications, I have always been worried about a possible knockdown and what the result would be. Its great to hear about other peoples experiences and discussion in this area, since I have always worried about my first experience being my last. I have made some modifications to my boat to provide additional security in case of a knockdown. I commonly sail in very windy and wavy conditions so it wouldn't be a simple manner of a one-time self righting. Unless something changed, further knockdowns would occur over and over. I don't have any additional floatation, so if the boat were to ship too much water in a knockdown(s) it would evetually sink. The boat as a whole would have to be sealed sufficiently to provide bouyancy until conditions could be remedied. The weak points I found were, the cabin door (hatch), cockpit locker, and sink drain. Furthermore, I think that keeping the heavy gear secure in the bottom of the boat will add a lot of self-righting stability. The standard two-piece 1/4 inch hatch covers did not look very secure, and even if they could withstand the water force, they would still leak alot. I have constructed a one-piece hatch cover out of 7/16 plywood which fits very snuggly into the grove in the trim boards and under the lid. I think that this hatch cover would withstand a fairly long-term exposure to waves and cockpit water without leaking too much (it also provides better protection against mosquitos). Whenever the wind picks up I make sure to always sail with the the main hatch closed securely. For the large cockpit locker, I just riveted on standard hasps and they don't seem to interfere with the normal sailing operations. I put a couple on because the forces could be quite large on the locker lid in the event of a knockdown. I also put a rubber weather strip around the inside edge of the locker, that when the locker is locked down provides a fairly water-tight seal. The access boards under the berths were a little more difficult to put latches on, since I wanted them to be flush below the cushions. I found some hardware at the local Ace that worked alright. Again these need to be very strong to withstand the forces during a knockdown. I haven't overcome the drain issue yet but I suppose a check valve would work. I agree with the comment I read about reefing early. The Montgomery seems to sail very solidly with reefed sails, and suprising, doesn't lose too much speed. I commonly sail with about a 70% jib and a fully (double) reefed mainsail. With this arrangement and some pretty good winds I can average 6 knots without too much instablity in the waves. Also a little weather helm due to the small jib. Cordell Pool

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RE: M_Boats: Cockpit locker closure
by Thomas Howe 18 Jan '03

18 Jan '03

I have set up an arrangement with Osprey that holds the locker closed, with nothing showing from the outside. I have a padeye riveted to the inside of the locker hatch, and one set at a diagonal directly below it on the inner wall of the locker. There is also a clam cleat just opposite the aft end of the sink, on the inside of the cockkpit's side. I run a 1/4 inch line from the locker top through the padeye in the locker, then to the clam cleat. I merely tug the line tight, and put it into the clam and it's secure. Howard can perhaps describe this system, but it's easy, unobtrusive and inexpensive. TH > [Original Message] > From: Smith, Tom <Tom.Smith(a)itron.com> > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Date: 1/16/2003 6:52:56 PM > Subject: RE: M_Boats: self righting > > The M15 cb is really very lightweight. I doubt its deployment would = > have helped Murray. And it is possible the board being down would help = > but probably more so in the case of large seas, as in my understanding, = > it's getting the boat up off horizontal on a steep swell that causes it = > to more easily trip. =20 > > I'm with you on the hasp deal, and I've considered them but just = > neglected to do anything about the situation. Any recommendations of = > great, unobtrusive, locker hasps? t=20 > > Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle > Sandpoint, Idaho > M15-345, Chukar > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Honshells [mailto:chonshell@ia4u.net] > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 4:44 PM > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: self righting > > > > Practically every boat review I've read says boats (of all sizes) should > have hasps on their cockpit lockers, a feature many manufacturers don't > offer (easy enough for buyers to add their own). After reading Murray's > post, I'm considering them more seriously. > > Would a centerboard retracted into its trunk inhibit righting? The = > result > is less surface to brace against to right the boat, but the Montys' = > ballast > is slung low, either way. > > Another question: I have been told that when conditions get dicey, I'm = > less > likely to suffer a knock-down if the board is up. The theory is that, > without the board's resistance, the boat will "skitter" sideways in a = > gust, > rather than going over. What's the consensus? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <s.mcclellan(a)attbi.com> > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 10:38 AM > Subject: self righting > > Murray--I agree with Rich that the details of your experience with the = > M-15 > knock-down would be of interest to all of us. > > Whatever details you can provide about the events leading up to it could > help us to avoid losing all the stuff in our cockpit lockers as well. > > One other question: did you notice-- did the centerboard swing back up = > into > the slot when she went over? It seems likely given your description of > her position in the water, and if so, then it is very possible that this > contributed to the lack of self-righting, and it would behoove M15 = > owners to > seriously consider some kind of down-position locking mechanism for the > centerboard. > > Also, what kind of positive floatation does she carry. This was a big > discussion in this group last winter. I personally have NO added = > floatation > in my > M15, but I know a lot of people do, and I am definitely planning to add = > some > sooner or later. (Maybe a lot sooner, now that I've heard your story.) > > Thanks for sharing! > > -- > > Steve McClellan~~M15~#152~~Chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > This message was scanned for viruses. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats --- Thomas Howe --- Real Estate questions? Here's Howe! --- Your Link To Homes In Lawrence, Kansas --- Reece and Nichols. ACRES Realtors --- 785-550-1169 --- Thomas(a)TEHowe.com --- http://www.ThomasHoweOnline.com O --------(\----------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

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Self Righting
by murray 18 Jan '03

18 Jan '03

This Fall my M15 was "knocked down" buy a very heavy gust of wind. The mast was horizontal in the water, the jib and mainsail were floating in the water and the outboard was also horizontal. All the gear stored in the cockpit lockers under the seats were tipped out into the water, and what didn't float, went to the bottom. Believe me it did not right itself. Only when one of the two of us stood on the keel, did the boat easily righted itself. Then came the struggle to get back into the boat. To my surprise, no water had poured through the companionway. It was bone dry in the cabin. The boat apparently had enough buoyancy and the hatch was high enough above the water line to keep the water out. Murray.

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M15 Anchor Systems
by Steve Foster 18 Jan '03

18 Jan '03

If anyone has any input about anchors for the M15 I would appreciate some input. I plan initially to just bay crusie, mostly 20-35 feet of water. Mostly sand and grassy bottoms, not much rock. Basically a lunch hook. Also would like a 'overnight' anchor for same conditions. Thanks, enjoy the feedback. Steve M15 #612 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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Re: M_Boats: Cockpit locker closure
by Larry Yake 17 Jan '03

17 Jan '03

I use the same system on Tullamore. It is detailed in The Best of Sail Magazines Things That Work book. Mostly just to lock up at the dock, also. As for the boat sailing on without her captain if he falls out, hopefully the boat is trimmed with a little weather helm so she'll round up and stop. Larry Y. M17, #200 On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:50:29 -0600 Howard Audsley <haudsley(a)tranquility.net> writes: This is the same system Thomas setup on the former Osprey (later Blue Feather Grace, and now Audasea), before his current Osprey. It works just as he describes it and doesnÂt require an additional lock. Normally, I just use it to secure the hatch at the dock and when the boat was left on the storage lot, but it would make sense to use it in rough weather. From now on, I will. One would also want to have the forward hatch closed and locked too. In MurrayÂs situation, I can only imagine how exciting it would have been had the boat gone over far enough to toss them both out, but not far enough so that she couldnÂt right herself and she sailed on without them. One can almost see the need for a harness and a sturdy clip point if you were going to venture out far enough you couldnÂt swim to shore if rough weather caught you. Funny how we fret about this stuff now, when over the last two years, IÂve spent much more time sitting or motoring on glass calm water than fighting too much wind. But the motto of the Boy Scout is Âbe preparedÂ. Howard M17, #278 Audasea On 1/17/03 11:37 AM, "Thomas Howe" <thomashowe(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > I have set up an arrangement with Osprey that holds the locker closed, with > nothing showing from the outside. I have a padeye riveted to the inside of > the locker hatch, and one set at a diagonal directly below it on the inner > wall of the locker. There is also a clam cleat just opposite the aft end of > the sink, on the inside of the cockkpit's side. I run a 1/4 inch line from > the locker top through the padeye in the locker, then to the clam cleat. I > merely tug the line tight, and put it into the clam and it's secure. Howard > can perhaps describe this system, but it's easy, unobtrusive and > inexpensive. TH > >

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M 15 Knock Down
by murray 17 Jan '03

17 Jan '03

P.S. I have not added any additional flotation than what was provided by the manufacturer prior to or after the knock down. Murray.

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M 15 Knock Down
by murray 17 Jan '03

17 Jan '03

Hi All, Here is the information on the "knock down" I experienced in my M15 on August 26, 2002 (not Fall as I stated). 1. My hull number is 241. 2. I was close hauled on a port beat. 3. Two of us were on board. My crew of 1 was about 300+/- lb.. He said " I will go forward and prepare to lower the jib." While he was standing on the forward deck, the gust of wind hit, causing the boat to lurch over on a port heel. He lost his balance and grabbed the bow pulpit, but he was not able to hold himself onboard. I was sitting on the starboard stern rail with my hand on the tiller extension. The boat tipped over so rapidly on its port side, that it threw us both in the water. The seat locker on the starboard side of the cockpit suddenly opened, dumping its contents in the water which now had risen over the port gunwale and the port seat locker door flipped open and rested against the port gunwale. I believe the knock down without recovery was primarily caused by the weight and momentum of the crew falling on the on the forward deck which was caused by the sudden lurch to port, while he was grabbing the bow pulpit and teak rail on the port gunwale.. 4. While swimming in the water, I released the sheets, and my crew swam to the keel which was out of the water. The center board had retracted into the pocket keel, so he grabbed the keel and lifted himself out of the water. This caused the boat to right itself. I would definitely install hatches on the seat lockers and place all tools etc. in a waterproof floatable vinyl bag. I hope you find my experience instructive. If nothing else, I have learned that all crew must stay put until we are about to come about, then they may proceed forward to lower the jib. Murray.

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