July 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: Haino and Racism
by Bill Ashline 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

>From: Tosh <tosh3(a)earthlink.net> >Subject: Haino and culture > >On one level it's fascinating to see culture >quickly moving from one aspect to another - but then it's >heartbreaking to see on one trip a few Starbucks in Tokyo - and then >a year later I go to the main cross walk in Shibuya and see a huge >Starbucks in front of my face. Plus Starbucks every few blocks from >the other one. All within a year. > >What I am worried about is the disappearence of the small unique >(ultra-cool) Japanese coffee shops - being replaced by Starbucks. >Yuck! Over here in Seoul, I cheered when Starbucks opened in 1998. It would be the first occasion for me to get a decent (and large) cup of espresso in three years. Though I normally avoid Starbucks when visiting the states, I've been a frequent customer here. But now that Koreans have become more of a coffee society and no longer see coffee as only an evening snack after dinner, I'm actually seeing people buy coffee in the morning as takeout. Truly astounding if you had seen the place in 1995. Of course, being a peddler of the imperial language and enjoying the benefits of the new imperialism, I see the emergence of Starbucks as a welcome example of the global neo-imperialism of American-brand economics. There are many other examples that are far more problematic. > >I also had the chance to actually read the interview with Haino >yesterday - and by no means was he making a racist statement. I am >not that familar with his music, but for sure he has the coolest >hairstyle than anyone right now! He's an interesting character, and though I'm still waiting for my copy of the Wire to arrive, I sincerely doubt that his comments were "racist." There's a bit of xenophobia in north Asia to be sure--not just in Japan. Some of this xenophobia has historical roots that cannot be casually dismissed. Nevertheless, Haino is barking up against a sea of change. There's nothing he or anyone else can do about the flow of culture--good and bad. To think of going back to a prior state of things is simply nostalgia, nothing more. >-- >From: "Remco Takken" <r.takken(a)planet.nl> > > All of these countries that complain about being dominated by "American >culture" (which is actually a mass fusion and trasnmutation of many >cultures) are at the same time, obsessed and almost fetishize our culture >(at least the youth do in these countries). This is especially true of the >Japanese. This is certainly true and certainly true in Korea as well. But let's not be naive about what produces the fetishization. You don't fetishize things you don't receive. American culture is exported and marketed. American movies are popular because Hollywood can mass produce the spectacle again and again. Very few other countries have the capital to spend several hundred million dollars to produce blockbusters. The blockbusters are seductive since they are both exotic and spectacular. They are also carnivorous. The US has been pressuring Korea for years to end its screen quota system which is a protectionist scheme to prevent the local movie industry from being squashed by Hollywood. More recently, Koreans have been making blockbusters of their own, replicating all too many Hollywood tropes. It's called survival, and it's not simply a case of fetishizing the exotic. But yes there is a dialectic in place here between production and consumption, and people are ready and wiling to consume even the worst crap all because it is foreign. Like Spinoza said, people embrace their enslavement as if it were their freedom. > >Do not kid yourself. The imperialism of culture is a direct result over >imperialism in terms of (political) power. People join the ones they think >they can't beat. It happened in Europe after 1945, 'we' were americanized >through vast Marshall help, and then Rock n Roll and popular Anglosaxon >culture in general. Perhaps the East is following now, however I can't see >any motive as strong as the one the europeans had after WW II. > >In that light, the growth of the islam can be looked upon as >countercultural, opposed to 'westernized' Europe and the recent >americanizng >of the far east. That's part of it. Certainly, the growth of Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction to aspects of globalization and the loss of power. In the case of Europe, the Marshall plan was perhaps an aspect of Fordism. The US needed a public well-off enough in Europe to buy its products. That and a lot of things like a shared history and culture motivated the "gift." These days, the US uses agents like the IMF to operate as a battering ram to open up other cultures, as it did quite well in Korea in 1998. In Japan, post-war Americanization wasn't innocent either. Now would actually be a good time for another Marshall plan--for Africa. The adjoining cultural imperialism that would and has already taken place would be a welcome price for getting the continent out of poverty and disease. It won't happen though. Africans simply aren't "white" enough. >understand itself. Personally, I refuse to abide by or subscribe to ANY >culture and only take what I like from them all and that's usually found in >each culture's arts- music, painting, etc. The rest- custom, taboo, >religion- FUCK IT! Moremovies is right. But it's a sign of his privilege. Some people simply aren't privileged enough to say no. And it's part of your own customs and religion that allows you to even say the words "fuck it" to what you don't like. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Re: GOD
by nors5379 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

<<hi darryl, only banned if you lead a chant in a publically funded space meant to indoctrinate youth... steve k, n.p. the fugs>> hehehe i better watch my mouth then. i work in a state funded building, and play loud obxious music making me the weird new guy. its a simple life... someone mentioned that they try and not let someone elses views get in the way of what they enjoy or intend to enjoy. i often feel guilty bringing friends to free jazz shows because theres always that slight chance its going to be so bizarre that they're just going to be antsy and not appreciate the music. on the otherhand when someone tells me a cd is subpar i usually go in thinking its a subpar cd and rarely give it the attention it really needs. i try my best to give every cd/show/musician a fair chance before the harsh or negative views come out. -darryl.

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Lemon Juice at B3/Nick Drake
by Mikail Faunus 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

I've spoken of Lemon Juice previously and hope you've had the opportunity to hear them play. They might have a regular gig at B3 (Avenue B and 3rd street) on Monday nights. I implore you to attend this coming Monday if you're in the market for raucous, intelligent, free-jazz. On a different note, are any of you familiar with Nick Drake. I recently acquired "Five Leaves Left" on a friend's recommendation. He's exceedingly depressing yet I can't stop listening, something to do with his captivating lyrics and cathartic guitar lines. I'm interested to hear your perspective of this artist and recommendations for other works. Shalom, Mikail __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com

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Re: Keiji Haino's racism
by Alan Kayser 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

Frankso wrote: "On the subject of Haino's supposed racism, you would be surprised to find out just how many people outside of the USA feel that their culture has been invaded by the USA - just ask a random selection of (French) people in the streets of Paris, and you'll get opinions like this from more than 50% of them." This may be even more true in Asia, ie Japan and China. The changes in those two countries are monumental. My wife , who is from Shenyang in north China, and I last traveled there in 1999. The invasion of Western (American) "pop" culture is very real. My previous trip in 1993 was only a preview of what was to come. There is nothing more shocking than entering shops in remote areas of China, well off the tourist route, and coming face to face with a larger than lifesize Michael Jordan poster. One need not go far to locate a McD or Mickey Mouse. KFCs are everywhere, as are Pizza Hut, Jeeps, Ralph Lauren. Imperialism, code named "Joint Ventures," is spreading rapidly through films, TV, you name it. Walk across the street from the Beijing train station, not an easy task BTW, and you'll find a Starbuck's. Shanghai, always the most Western of Chinese cities, might now be mistaken for Manhattan. So, though I have not read the quoted article, I do understand the fear of disappearing traditions. Think about the immediate reaction, at least as it was translated by American broadcasting networks, of Aghans upon the downfall of the Taliban. They were now "free" to cut their hair Western style, watch TV, listen to music, go the movies. In other words, become consumers. The real invasion does not come via air strikes, tanks, etc. It comes in little packages with smiley faces and a request for "one large fries, please." Alan E Kayser _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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Re: Keiji Haino's racism
by A 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

In answer to the original question, I very rarely let someone's ideology get in my way to enjoying his/her art. Separation between human and artist, etc. Case in point: Burzum and some more contemporary NS black metal acts. Burzum's earlier material was actually very beautiful, quite hypnotic. Such a shame that such great music was created by a worthless fuck. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? InformaciÃ³n de Estados Unidos y AmÃ©rica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. VisÃtanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com

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Fwd: i dont get... Blue Cecil Gtr Audio &c
by Efrén del Valle 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

Hi, > Re: Kind of Blue: so many have told me I must listen > and love, I have chosen > to > do neither. I confess, yesterday I heard one track > from KOB on a compilation. > I immediately fell asleep (which is different from > going to bed- some acclaim > this > disc as superb background for rutting). I'm glad to see that I'm not the only heretic here that dares to go against the untouchable "Kind of Blue". I've never been able to find the substance that makes that record an essential. I've also fallen asleep everytime I've tried to capture the essence. Add "Bitches Brew" into that category. I'm not questioning the importance of both records in the jazz world, though. (an importance they don't have for me)- > Steve Koenig > n.r. new air conditioner manual C'mon, Steve, you've been reading that manual for three days! It can't be that difficult! :-) Best, EfrÃ©n del Valle n.p: Sonic Youth "Murray Street" - can't stop playing this. _______________________________________________________________ Copa del Mundo de la FIFA 2002 El Ãºnico lugar de Internet con vÃdeos de los 64 partidos. Â¡ApÃºntante ya! en http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/fc/es/

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Re: Things I just don't get
by Fastian＠aol.com 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

In a message dated 7/3/02 1:28:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dan.given(a)ualberta.ca writes: << > Ken Vandermark: I used to try to like Vandermark, bought a few of his early recordings and then gave up after the first Vandermark 5 album. Then a couple of years ago a friend gave me the newest, at the time, V5 disc (Burn the Incline, I think) and the DKV Wels/Chicago set. I kinda liked them, which inspired me to recently fork over the cash for the new DKV (Trigonometry). I shelved it without ever listening to the second disc. Hopefully I'm over the idea that I like Vandermark for good this time. Dan >> Wow! I've been waiting a couple of months for someone to talk about avant jazz created within the last 10 years and it finally winds up under the category of things we don't get. I appreciate your views but in this case I think differently. Vandermark for me would be in my top 3 favorites, along with Tim Berne and Michael Moore. His compositions and improv work for me is about as good as it gets. He also surrounds himself with others who also play at a very high level. The only cds he released that I found disappointing were the "No Such Thing" cd with Karayorgis and McBride or "Like Rays" w/ Joe Morris And Poppel. I think Vandermark and Morris both work better in a band setting than in Duos or ad hoc groupings. "Deep Telling"( DKV and Morris} I thought was brilliant and engaging. I would highly recommend the School Days band, NRG Ensemble, Vandermark 5, DKV, or just about anything else. Cheers, John Threadgould

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re:jeez
by Acousticlv＠aol.com 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

In a message dated 7/4/02 4:35:24 PM, zorn-list-request(a)mailman.xmission.com writes: << thank god (is this word allowed? or is the congress going to ban me from saying that...) >> hi darryl, only banned if you lead a chant in a publically funded space meant to indoctrinate youth... steve k, n.p. the fugs

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i dont get... Blue Cecil Gtr Audio &c
by Acousticlv＠aol.com 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

To: zorn <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> CC: Chris Selvig <selvig(a)sonic.net> Subject: Re: Things I just don't get ya, that's what i meant. they describe it a lot better than i can in their liner notes. the sound is similar to the stuff from Mapleshade. mark Hi Everyone.. Hoo boy... one of my private wormcans. To me, nearly all CIMPs sound disiccated and colorless, which is the inverse of the realistic vibrancy I find from Mapleshade. (I'm talking sound, not music.) I'm intrigued that Mark finds them similar. I won't start up a thead about audio systems.. :) To Remco and others: Re: Joe Morris: what i love about his work is not the sound of his instrument, but the notes he plays. I always feel he's not working on creating color but creating the right note. I like very few guitarists, Noel Akchote being one of them. Eisenbeil I've found excellent live, though his CDs leave me uninvolved. Re: Chadbourne... it's a matter of enjoying his persona or notm more than his (considerable) musical ability. there's so much out there, though, that you should always listen before buying. his solo dobro is one vast bore, his recent doug sahm tribute is fab if you love texmex music and here is his playing with real country musicians, and... see him live. Re: Cassandra W's voice: it moves me greatly, but irritates others. so it goes. Re: Cobra. As with all the game pieces, as well as other "aleatoric" pieces by cage, stockhausen and others, it's the players interaction more often than the piece which makes it work or not. Ive loved some cobras, been bored by others, and having seen one live at ps 122, i was more fascinated by the visual interplay than i cared for the music, but it was a great experience nonetheless. Re: Bad Poetry, Dear Skip, since I'm not a musician but a poet, I can only agree with you, with the rare exception. The Iojema (sp?) Thomas performance at the Vision festival (I'm going to listen to the CD this week) was strong on both. As for the why they do it, it's like the old joke about dogs: "because they can." I have a similar q: Why do so many jazzers have their bad singer friends sing badly on their otherwise fine discs rendering them unlistenable bad jazz discs? I must tread carefully here, as I have recorded with great musicians, but they have improvised about my own most wonderful :) work, rather than my spitting my spew on their amazing work. Re: Cecil's Poetry: Dear Chris. I actually do like Cecil's poetry but also have criticism of it. He has repetitive riffs, many phrases are pompously banal, but you wouldn't know it if you didnt get the obscure references in the first place, a problem inherent in his work. Re: Kind of Blue: so many have told me I must listen and love, I have chosen to do neither. I confess, yesterday I heard one track from KOB on a compilation. I immediately fell asleep (which is different from going to bed- some acclaim this disc as superb background for rutting). Re: Keiji Haino: I only read yr excerpt, not the full article, but what was there is quite true about how dietary changes have changed the physiques... but of many worldwide, not only Japanese. I'm curious to read the whole piece for context. Re: Steely Dan. A big bore. Some friends find in "Aja" a hiden gay lovve story, but to me, its a bore. I won't lose Rickey's #, tho (Thanks, Tom Robinson) Love to aLL Steve Koenig n.p. Anthony Braxton/Scott Rosenberg Duo n.r. new air conditioner manual

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Artist sued over silence
by Samerivertwice＠aol.com 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

from http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=307449 Big noises at odds over the sound of silence By David Lister Media and Culture Editor 21 June 2002 'The Sound of Silence' may have prompted engaging harmonies from Simon and Garfunkel but a more literal appreciation of the absence of noise has prompted one of the more curious copyright disputes of modern times. Mike Batt, the man behind the Wombles and Vanessa Mae, has put a silent 60-second track on the album of his latest classical chart-topping protÃ©gÃ©s, the Planets. This has enraged representatives of the avant-garde, experimentalist composer John Cage, who died in 1992. The silence on his group's album clearly sounds uncannily like 4'33", the silence composed by Cage in his prime. Batt said last night: "I've received a letter on behalf of John Cage's music publishers. I was in hysterics when I read their letter. "As my mother said when I told her, 'which part of the silence are they claiming you nicked?'. They say they are claiming copyright on a piece of mine called 'One Minute's Silence' on the Planets' album, which I credit Batt/Cage just for a laugh. But my silence is original silence, not a quotation from his silence."

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