November 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: why isn't it stealing?
by Craig Rath 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

At 03:15 PM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: >If I make someone a comp CD and it has a Stickmen song on it, and I do this >with the intent that it will create a Stickmen consumer out of someone who >has no other practical means of encountering the Stickmen, and I take no >money for this (and in fact have paid both for the Stickmen LP in the first >place long before it was ever reissued and for the CDR), how have I wronged >you? I see one difference in position here - Steve is talking about copying a whole CD, Skip is talking about one tune on a compilation CD. These are two very different matters and should not be considered comparable at all. I happen to agree with Skip on the compilation issue. While it's still technically illegitimate copying, it's considerably more acceptable than duplicating an entire CD. Craig M. Rath H: fripp(a)attbi.com W: rathc(a)questarweb.com

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by Peter Gannushkin 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Hello Steve, Saturday, November 30, 2002, you wrote: Cac> Please tell me why, if someone copies and keeps one of our releases, thereby Cac> depriving me of the sale of that release and our artist for the payment of Cac> the sale of that release, why this *isn't* theft? Pretty simple. Lets say I'm making hamburgers and selling them. You bought one, tasted it and then made copies of it, invited friends and you ate them. Did you steal something from me? No. Did I get less money because you didn't buy hamburgers from me, but copied them instead? Yes. Was it theft? Of course not. Now, tell me, what is the difference? NP: Guillermo GREGORIO Trio "Red Cube(d)" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin(a)shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/

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Re: Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc.
by Adam Marrus 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

A few of my friends and I also have this conversation periodically. My views on the issue are as follows. Burning unauthorized audio IS technically stealing. An artist puts out a CD. That is his job, what he does for a living. I do however recognize that the issue is not black and white. I therefor try to factor in several variables in making a moral decision for myself: While burning unautorized material is wrong in that it is stealing, it is up to me as a consumer to create my own moral basis upon which i can base all my decisions. While i've yet toi formulate firm guideline i seem to feel (morally) comfortable with the decisions i make. I realize that i am not entitled to own the Bob Marley box set cause i didn't buy it. I own all the albums tho, have for years. So in that way i justify my burnt copy to myself. I sleep ok at night. Really the problem boils down to availability. If CDS were priced better and artists had easier access to consumers (or vice versa in my case) stealing would be less of an issue. As for buying used cds whereby the artist does not profit, that is a product of the industry. It so happens that the product really doesn't depreciate over time like many other items. A $10 used cd vs. a $20 new one is generally the same thing. I scour used cd stores almost daily. There are no fewer than 5 used cd stores on one street between my home and work (a 12 minute walk). I realize the artist is not profiting from my purchase, but i have little choice. Many of the items i find used i CANNOT find OR afford new. And it does happen that i discover artists "used" and end up buying other titles "new". On the whole i support many artists with a great deal of my income. Those artists who don't see any of my money from used CD sales are being graced with the honour of being heard. I (like everyone else) have my financial limitations. Until music is FREE, i will continue to buy CDs used, and new ones when i can't wait for that used copy to pop up. Many Cds i believe i'll never see used, so those i buy those new aswell. Sorry about the length but i thought i'd just add a couple cents on a subject that interests me. C ya, Adam _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: CD burning/smash the RIAA!
by William Crump 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

>From: Peter Gannushkin <shkin(a)shkin.com> > > AM> Burning unauthorized audio IS stealing. > > I think burning a CD technically is NOT stealing at all. Stealing is > taking somebody's else property away, so this person doesn't have it > anymore. Well, it is stealing. It's stealing the artist's royalty that otherwise would have been paid if the burned-copy-recipient had bought a legit copy instead. However, I still burn unauthorized copies, because as I think has been established, getting the music out to people who wouldn't hear it otherwise ultimately constitutes a GREATER GOOD that trumps the small royalty theft. I go all the way back to 1982 and getting a couple of homemade compilation cassettes of punk gems ("Lose Your Job" and "Lose Your Friends," in a punk trilogy that will probably never be completed [in true punk fashion] by "Lose Your Self-Respect") that led me to buy gobs of legit releases by the Huskers, Minutemen, Clash, Buzzcocks, Pistols, Meat Puppets, etc etc. Still, I try not to kid myself -- the greater good started then and starts now with a small theft. V/A compilations definitely have more good karma than burning whole albums for friends; burning OP albums has more good karma than burning in-print albums; burning albums from major labels is better karma than whole albums from indie labels, which I don't like to do anymore if they're in print. The same friend who made those tapes 20 years back gleefully downloads everything he can via various peer-to-peer methods, because his contention is that the music industry as it currently exists is evil, with labels stealing from artists, and the sooner we crush the existing recording industry and cut the corporations out of the loop, the sooner the artists can deal directly with their public. In this vision of the future, studio recordings would exist only as free tastes to be freely disseminated, which would encourage the artists and their audiences to get up offa their couch and conduct the REAL business of music -- live performance, with as much of the gate going to the artist as possible. It's not a fully-formed theory, and even if it were I'm not sure I would agree with all of it (I have a hard time with artists doing studio work entirely "on spec," as it were), but it brings up some interesting and legit points, so I thought I'd toss it out here. William Crump

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Re: John Cage on video and CD
by Ricardo Jorge 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

---You can find spoken words Arto Lnsay & Naked City interpretations on the tribute "cage/uncaged" > >Does anybody know where I can locate a copy of the John Cage documentary >"Revenge of the Dead Indians" (1993) by Henning Lohner? It sounds very >interesting, and Zorn also appears in it, btw. > >And what about Cage CDs where he reads or talks. Is there any CDs released >with Cage interviews on, or maybe where he reads some of his many famous >anecdotes and small stories? I'd love to hear something like that. > >Cheers! > > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br

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Re: Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc.
by john schuller 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

>From: Peter Gannushkin <shkin(a)shkin.com> >Reply-To: Peter Gannushkin <shkin(a)shkin.com> >To: Fritz Feger <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc. >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:27:33 +0100 > >Copyright laws are weird already and should be changed to be softer >not harder. Why on earth somebody who writes or plays music, writes >texts or acts in a movie should be paid by the number of sold copies >or tickets? Nobody else except these categories of people are paid >that way and that's why nobody else can become a billionaire just >because he happened to have pretty face or managed to compose popular >tune. Actually, other people are paid this way and it is by manufacturing. Cars, Hamburgers and Cd's are all sold the same way. Zoo admission, Plane Tickets, and Concert tickets are all sold the same way. Depending on how many things or seats are available versus how many are in demand will decide how many are sold. Lets say I'm cleaning some path in the park, should I charge >every person who passes this path some money? They already are payinb money. Taxes. Even other sort of >artists like sculptors or painters or architects are not paid that >way. When the sculpture is sold, it is sold, that's it, no more money. It is all how they chose to sell their piece. I have known painters to release so-called "Limited Edition" prints of their painting in quantities of thousands. When I make a limited edition cd of 20 copies. That is all that there is, all that will be sold and all the money that will be made (or in my case, lost). >People two hundred years ago didn't know anything about copyright so >why should we use this thing? Can you imagine that somebody will start >to claim their rights for Odyssey or even Bible? Damn, hopefully someone will get rights to the Bible, so I know who to sue!!! _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: CD burning/smash the RIAA!
by Peter Gannushkin 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Hello William, Saturday, November 30, 2002, you wrote: >> I think burning a CD technically is NOT stealing at all. Stealing is >> taking somebody's else property away, so this person doesn't have it >> anymore. WC> Well, it is stealing. It's stealing the artist's royalty that WC> otherwise would have been paid if the burned-copy-recipient had WC> bought a legit copy instead. Still, technically it is not. The artist's royalty probably is underpaid, but there is no stealing. NP: Charlie Christian "Genius Of Electric Guitar" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin(a)shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/

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John Cage on video and CD
by Arthur Gadney 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Hi, Does anybody know where I can locate a copy of the John Cage documentary "Revenge of the Dead Indians" (1993) by Henning Lohner? It sounds very interesting, and Zorn also appears in it, btw. And what about Cage CDs where he reads or talks. Is there any CDs released with Cage interviews on, or maybe where he reads some of his many famous anecdotes and small stories? I'd love to hear something like that. Cheers! _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Robert Quine
by Arthur Gadney 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Hi! Anybody know what happened to Bob Quine? A few years ago he was on every other Zorn album, but not anymore. Too bad, since I loved his warm twangy sound! Did he ever do any good outside his Zorn collaboration? Cheers, _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc.
by Pierre Toussaint 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Most of my burned cds are cds I would probably never have bought anyway (mostly for financial resons I guess, but not always). I try to never copy independant releases. I do it once in a while and I think this can be good because the artists will then be known and as some of you said, then people might go see the shows, buy the new releases, etc. As for used cds, many of them I've paid ridiculously low prices. There's a lot of these I've paid 10$ or less and I would have never paid 20$ for those. If I don't listen to a cd and I sell it to a used store, I say to myself the same thing as burned cds. Someone might see the shows, buy the new cd's, etc. I sometimes download major record company releases. Most of the time it is by curiosity. I like to listen to new releases by bands I've onced liked but don't like that much anymore (I'm thinking of the red hot chili peppers for example). All in all, if I don't plan to buy the cd, who cares. At least, I've listen to the damn thing. And I have absolutely have no remorse to rip a Beatles cd. Half of them are dead, and the other half has got enough money. I prefer to give my money to independants. Also, what about those music clubs? The artists don't get the same thing as when we buy the cds in a store. Finally, there is also an ecological rational behind buying and selling used cd's. They just pick up dust at home. So why not help someone take pleasure in listening to it. It is also a way to help the misfortunate to listen to music they can't get their hands on. I don't know, but I don't feel bad in all of this. If we are not to consider music in the same way as a big mac or a gap t-shirt, we must then accept to promote it in ways wich do not follow the rules of the market. It is sad for some, but I think the ones who are paying the price are not the independants but the major record labels. Is it me or this list is less and less of a Zorn list? (But hey, I'm playing the game to) Do people still buy Zorn cd's out there? I have seen so little comments on his latest filmworks releases for example. Does anyone know if the guy is selling less and less cds? In this case, I think it would have more to do with the high quantity of releases than because we copy is cds. No?

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