April 2009 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Re: [Utah-astronomy] UFO BLOG
by Joe Bauman 18 Apr '09

18 Apr '09

Thank you, Patrick! I'll contact Dan Pope and see if he will let me quote from his note in my follow-up. I am certain that lightning is the explanation now. Best wishes, Joe --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Patrick Wiggins <paw(a)wirelessbeehive.com> wrote: From: Patrick Wiggins <paw(a)wirelessbeehive.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] UFO BLOG To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 11:35 PM On 16 Apr 2009, at 18:41, Joe Bauman wrote: > Fun with my infamous, and undoctored "UFO" pic: > > http://www.deseretnews.com/blogs/1,5322,10000034,00.html?bD=20090416 > > -- Thanks, Joe I forwarded the URL to KSL meteorologist Dan Pope. Here are his thoughts, reposted with Dan's permission. patrick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Patrick, Thanks for sharing this with me. I found it to be very, very interesting. I think I know Joe Bauman...either from reading his articles or I have talked with him personally before. I find his article to be quite accurately interesting. The object appears to me to be a cloud...possibly "blow off" from a distant thunderstorm. Remember that thunder usually doesn't travel more than 10 miles...maybe 15 miles under perfect conditions...so Joe wouldn't have necessarily heard thunder. In fact, I doubt he heard any thunder because this object is many, many miles from his location near Moab. If it is more the "blow off" or the "mushroom" part of a thunderstorm, the parent thunderstorm would probably have been over the Book Cliffs or maybe Wasatch Plateau. The cloud itself probably did not contain any of the lightning, because it was distant from the parent thunderstorm (I think anyway, but give me latitude for error). Also, we know that lightning not only hits the ground, but it flashes within the cloud and also goes cloud to cloud; but it also rises many miles up into the atmosphere in what has been dubbed "Sprites". The Shuttle astronauts took pictures of this type lightning, and it has been heavily studied since they first saw it from space. I quote from an interesting article from Psysorg.org: Sprites are one of the most common of a number of so-called mesospheric transient luminous events (TLEs) driven by lightning. Other such lightning-related phenomena include blue jets, elves and terrestrial gamma ray flashes. You can read the entire article here: http://www.physorg.com/news10961.html One of the things we know about these TLE's and Sprites is that they last for only 200 or 300 milliseconds, so the eye can't really see them very well. They are best viewed from 100 to 300 miles away, which might explain why the photograph in question has light emanating onto rather than within the object. I suspect that this was going on during the photo taking by Joe on the night of September 15, 2001. Thunderstorms are still very probable during the middle of September. It is possible to retrieve the lightning data from that night through an organization in Tuscon, Arizona that gathers the lightning strike data and distributes it to other companies for a fee. One would probably have to pay a subscription fee to see the lightning data from that particular night; to see if in fact there were lightning strikes during the time of the photographs. That might explain if lighting was present at the time, but there would be no way of measuring Sprites or other TLE's, because we only get lightning strike data from the cloud to ground strikes...not from cloud to cloud or cloud to air lightning. Sprites and TLE's would be much different than the usual lightning we see anyway. Just my observation from more of a Meteorological sense. Still, a very interesting article and picture! Best, Dan _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] PLB's?
by stormcrow60＠xmission.com 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Hi Patrick, Sorry I cannot help you with any personal recommendations for PLB's, but I am curious as to why satellites no longer monitor aircraft emergency signals. Is this only for private aircraft or commercial aircaft too? Is this not an essential part of air traffic control/monitoring? Do you know why they have stopped this monitoring? Just curious. Have a good day. Jon

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UFO BLOG
by Joe Bauman 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Fun with my infamous, and undoctored "UFO" pic: http://www.deseretnews.com/blogs/1,5322,10000034,00.html?bD=20090416 -- Thanks, Joe

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] member loaner scope vs school subsidy
by Wayne Sumner 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

I have been keenly interested in this discussion of the SLAS telescope loaner program because I am both a long time purveyor of school star parties (I estimate I've personally done about 500 since 1981), and, since 2001, have been a high school teacher of math, physics, engineering, and astronomy. Many of you, I'm sure, recall the Iomega Astronomy Enrichment program that Brent Watson and I conducted in the 1990's. With $50,000 from Iomega, and additional other funding sources such as Eisenhower grants, we build and placed about 320 6 inch f-10 telescopes in schools scattered over most of Utah and nearby corners of Idaho and Wyoming. We conducted workshops for groups of carefully selected teachers to give them the rudements of amateur astronomy, a working knowledge of telescopes, and a beginning understanding of the night sky. We are still very proud of that effort, and I frequently encounter teachers who either are still using those telescopes or want information, help, and training on how to use telescopes they inherited from predecessors. Yes, a few ended up as "trophy" telescopes (you know what I mean... they end up as impressive conversation pieces or classroom decorations, but never see starlight), and a few have ended up in storage rooms with lost or damaged eyepieces and mirrors covered with mouse poop and urine (yes, we've actually seen that, too). The feedback I get, however, is that most of them are still actually in use, being checked out to students who take them home or used at school star parties. Towards the end of the 1990's, however, we found it harder and harder to recruit teachers to participate in our program. We came to the conclusion that the supply had pretty much met the demand. Teachers who wanted telescopes and were willing to put them to good use had them. Brent and I were both disappointed at the apparent lack of interest on the part of so many teachers. We realized that our goal of placing a telescope in every elementary school was not realistic. Having said all that, I have to agree with those who realize that the scope of SLAS's outreach programs has to be limited by the resources available (loaner telescopes and precious member time) to those willing to join their time and interests with those of SLAS. Don't feel bad about those limits. You are all such giving people, but like teachers, you will never really know how many lives you've touched or how many kids' interest in math, science, and astronomy you have kindled. I agree with Chuck that universities should be looking to promote more astronomy programs in high schools to feed their programs, but where do you think the kids who take classes like mine come from? They come families whose kids have attended your star parties and lectures, whether as students at their schools, as boy scouts at camps, or visitors to national parks. In response to my question, about two-thirds of my 24 astronomy students have attended the kinds of activities conducted by groups like SLAS or OAC. You are out there doing great work, and I thank you for it. Keep it up, but don't try to run faster than you are able. Sorry this has run on so long, but now for my conclusion: just keep doing what you are doing. The teachers who want star parties are, for the most part getting them, and mostly for free, too! Sincerely, Wayne A. Sumner Math/Physics/Astronomy/Engineering Boy's Tennis Coach Northridge High School Davis School District (801) 402-8610 >>> Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> 04/15/09 3:38 PM >>> I keep thinking of the U of U astronomy professors have talked about SLAS being a "feeder" of interested students into the program up there, when they should be looking to the area high-school science departments. A much, much bigger potential pool of candidates there. Obviously there is a disconnect somewhere. I'm not blaming the teachers, it's probably systemic in nature. Echoing Rodger and Roger, SLAS seems to be where the astronomically-inclined spend their "golden" years, not their formative ones. Well, myself excluded, lol. Bruce, Patrick, Mark; all the club "elders" need to be mentoring their eventual successors now. I'm doing this where I work. I hired a young kid and have been taking him through an apprenticeship, with the goal of him taking over for me when I retire. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO-2
by Joe Bauman 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Hey Stephen, I think you've answered my questions! Many thanks! The print in the larger view shows the whole frame, I'm sure. Also, it is possible I was so tired when I wrote the journal entry that I forgot that I had used my normal lens, and not the wide-angle that I mistakenly called a tele. The normal lens is 52 mm., which fits in with your estimate. The weather record is a wonderful item -- I am hoping I could quote you in the blog I'll put on line about Tuesday. I do feel you have figured it out. Very best wishes, Joe --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> wrote: From: Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO-2 To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 5:05 PM Had fun this morning looking at Joe's UFO photo. The 2 vertical stars to the right of and below Acamar are separated by about 3 degrees. The height of the UFO is thus about 3 degrees. Perusal of archived weather data for 15 Sept 2001 0700Z show rain on the W. Colorado/ E. Utah border about the latitude of Moab. Call the distance about 60 miles from The Wedge. That distance and angle give a height of 3.14 mi or 16600' agl, a reasonable height for a thunder head. Doubling the distance would double the height. Thunder cannot be heard for more than about 10 miles. A typical lightning rate is 3-5 per min. I count 15-20 dark 'dots' suggesting a 3 to 7 minute exposure time. Most of the 'dots' have vertical bars above them but not all. If the image is more or less full a 35 mm frame then the lens would appear to be about 50-60mm focal length from the coverage angle and frame size. If it was the 28m then the image must have been cropped. From the 'strobing' it would appear that the lighting was fairly regular and/or the storm didn't move much during the photo. Joe was on track by calling it thunder storm, I would agree that a T-storm is the most likely explanation. Steve _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO
by Joe Bauman 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Humm, Maybe it was a different lens! I'll look in my camera bag. Or maybe I used the normal lens. Sorry I can't remember now -- I just pulled that one out and thought it must be it. I'll look again. Thanks, Dan -- Joe --- On Fri, 4/17/09, daniel turner <outwest112(a)yahoo.com> wrote: From: daniel turner <outwest112(a)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 2:56 PM Joe: 28mm is not a telephoto lense. If you looked through the viewfinder of a SLR the maginfication would be 1/2 the size of the naked eye view. This says that the object you recorded had a large angular size or you wouldn't have picked up any detail at all The wavy striations says that you are looking through a lot of air between you and the object. This means this thing was of a size that would fit snuggly inside the Salt Lake valley. Way to big to go unnoticed by anyone else. I've been at a dark site just east of Park city and seen bright flashing lights. I noted the direction and the time and checked the weather satellite photos to see a thunder storm over Grand Junction was the cause. Another time the source was in Jackson Hole. You can see things for a long way off at a dark site like Wedge Overlook, but I would say this thing was way too big even for the mothership. DT --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 9:53 AM > Hi Steve, We can figure the direction > by looking at the star I indicated as it was at about 3 a.m. > Here's what I wrote in my journal about the lens: " > > The telephoto I borrowed from the paper was far too heavy > for the > telescope and I couldn't use it. Instead I used a small > tele I have, which has > f-stop openings to f/2." > > I still have the telephoto. It's a Nikon lens. Around the > front it says, "Nikkor 28 mm 1:2 339925." I'm sure it was > focused at infinity. -- hope that helps. Thanks for your > interest! -- Joe > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> > wrote: > > From: Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> > Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO > To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 8:14 AM > > Joe, > Image might be fun to analyze by doing some calculations. > Do you recall lens focal length and aperture? You were > probably focused at infinity. Aperture used for image (full > open or 1 stop down)? I presume the "overall view" is a more > or less full frame print from 35 mm format, any cropping > when you did the digital copy? You say the camera was > probably pointing SSE toward Moab. Any other info would be > helpful. > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Joe's UFO-2
by Stephen Peterson 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Had fun this morning looking at Joe's UFO photo. The 2 vertical stars to the right of and below Acamar are separated by about 3 degrees. The height of the UFO is thus about 3 degrees. Perusal of archived weather data for 15 Sept 2001 0700Z show rain on the W. Colorado/ E. Utah border about the latitude of Moab. Call the distance about 60 miles from The Wedge. That distance and angle give a height of 3.14 mi or 16600' agl, a reasonable height for a thunder head. Doubling the distance would double the height. Thunder cannot be heard for more than about 10 miles. A typical lightning rate is 3-5 per min. I count 15-20 dark 'dots' suggesting a 3 to 7 minute exposure time. Most of the 'dots' have vertical bars above them but not all. If the image is more or less full a 35 mm frame then the lens would appear to be about 50-60mm focal length from the coverage angle and frame size. If it was the 28m then the image must have been cropped. From the 'strobing' it would appear that the lighting was fairly regular and/or the storm didn't move much during the photo. Joe was on track by calling it thunder storm, I would agree that a T-storm is the most likely explanation. Steve

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO
by daniel turner 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Joe: 28mm is not a telephoto lense. If you looked through the viewfinder of a SLR the maginfication would be 1/2 the size of the naked eye view. This says that the object you recorded had a large angular size or you wouldn't have picked up any detail at all The wavy striations says that you are looking through a lot of air between you and the object. This means this thing was of a size that would fit snuggly inside the Salt Lake valley. Way to big to go unnoticed by anyone else. I've been at a dark site just east of Park city and seen bright flashing lights. I noted the direction and the time and checked the weather satellite photos to see a thunder storm over Grand Junction was the cause. Another time the source was in Jackson Hole. You can see things for a long way off at a dark site like Wedge Overlook, but I would say this thing was way too big even for the mothership. DT --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 9:53 AM > Hi Steve, We can figure the direction > by looking at the star I indicated as it was at about 3 a.m. > Here's what I wrote in my journal about the lens: " > > The telephoto I borrowed from the paper was far too heavy > for the > telescope and I couldn't use it. Instead I used a small > tele I have, which has > f-stop openings to f/2." > > I still have the telephoto. It's a Nikon lens. Around the > front it says, "Nikkor 28 mm 1:2 339925." I'm sure it was > focused at infinity. -- hope that helps. Thanks for your > interest! -- Joe > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> > wrote: > > From: Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> > Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO > To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 8:14 AM > > Joe, > Image might be fun to analyze by doing some calculations. > Do you recall lens focal length and aperture? You were > probably focused at infinity. Aperture used for image (full > open or 1 stop down)? I presume the "overall view" is a more > or less full frame print from 35 mm format, any cropping > when you did the digital copy? You say the camera was > probably pointing SSE toward Moab. Any other info would be > helpful. > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >

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PLBs?
by Patrick Wiggins 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Since a number of the folks on this list spend time well off the beaten path I'm wondering if anyone here has bought one of the new PLBs (Personal Locator Device) for use in summoning help in case of an emergency. They are not cheap but now that the satellites have stopped monitoring the signals broadcast by aircraft Emergency Locator Transmitters (including the one in my plane) I'm looking for a hand held unit that does work with the satellites (406 mHz) as well as ground based search teams (121.5 mHz). Any opinions? patrick

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO
by Joe Bauman 17 Apr '09

17 Apr '09

Hi Steve, We can figure the direction by looking at the star I indicated as it was at about 3 a.m. Here's what I wrote in my journal about the lens: " The telephoto I borrowed from the paper was far too heavy for the telescope and I couldn't use it. Instead I used a small tele I have, which has f-stop openings to f/2." I still have the telephoto. It's a Nikon lens. Around the front it says, "Nikkor 28 mm 1:2 339925." I'm sure it was focused at infinity. -- hope that helps. Thanks for your interest! -- Joe --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> wrote: From: Stephen Peterson <summitek(a)mindspring.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Joe's UFO To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 8:14 AM Joe, Image might be fun to analyze by doing some calculations. Do you recall lens focal length and aperture? You were probably focused at infinity. Aperture used for image (full open or 1 stop down)? I presume the "overall view" is a more or less full frame print from 35 mm format, any cropping when you did the digital copy? You say the camera was probably pointing SSE toward Moab. Any other info would be helpful. Steve _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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