February 2005 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

best days run
by dik lang 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

In looking forward to the San Juan rendezvous this summer I was wondering what other M-17 s have put under their keel in a day. How far can one expect to go in aday? any thoughts? Dik Lang M-17 Sweet Pea

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Solar, self-steering, and M-boats
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Bud, If I might interject a few points(OK, more than a few) regarding the solar panels and the Autohelm (aka 'Tiller Pilots'). I have both a Tiller Pilot and solar panel on my Flicka, and a small panel on my M15. In addition, I have (as a builder of passive solar homes) installed several large stand-alone and grid-intertie PV (photovoltaic) systems. I posted a piece on the use of smaller panels on M-Boats last year (which, I might add, brought on some grumbling). Here are a few derived points from that posting that might prove helpful to your question: 1) Calculate your total battery capacity at no more than 50% discharge. Even the best batteries will be very short lived if you repeatedly discharge them deeper than 50%. The best batteries for really deep discharge are Gel Cells, but you MUST limit the charging voltage according to manufacturer's specs (usually less than 14.1 volts), or you will ruin them in short order. AGM batteries will also tolerate relatively deep discharges, and some are more tolerant to higher (14.6v) charging voltages. Both Gel and AGM batteries have extremely low self-discharge rates, and can be left for long periods without consequence. (addendum: I now use AGM batteries exclusively, and regulate the charge voltage if panel output is high enough to warrant doing so). 2) Not all so-called 'Deep Cycle' batteries are. Most sold under this appellation (especially at car parts stores and discount chain stores) are merely slightly better car-type batteries. If you are serious about real capacity and longevity, buy one of the better brands that truly have different plate thickness and composition suited to long, deep discharges. I have found that the cheaper batteries are a false economy when compared to a properly maintained and charged true deep cycle or industrial battery. (addendum: again, I suggest AGM over Gel or Lead Acid--also, I do not favor traditional motorcycle batteries, as they are not intended for deep cycle use). 3) Most panels that are/would be appropriate for use on an M-15 are low-output units primarily designed to maintain batteries, or at best, replace small discharges. 4) Your ability to support/sustain an Autohelm/Tiller Pilot by solar panel will depend on several factors as follow: a) The make, model, and average continuos draw of the Tiller-Pilot (Raymarine ST-1000 is 0.5-1.5 amps--use 1.0 amps for calculations). b) The intended durations of use (how many hours per day/week will you actually have unit ON, not standby). c) Durations between access to AC or other non-solar charging. e) The size and type of battery banks. f) The size and type of solar panel(s). g) Solar radiation gain by region h) Panel/system efficiency loss. Let's do a sample analysis. I will use the Unisolar USF-11 (I have on both my M15 and my Flicka--fits perfectly on the sliding hatch of the M15) coupled to two West Marine AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) PWC batteries (these are basically small AGM batteries that are close in size to the motorcycle batteries you mentioned. First, let's look at the potential of your battery bank. Each of these batteries is rated at 18 AH (amp. hours). Two of these have a total rating of 36 AH, but that is the rating for 100% discharge. Because we want these batteries to last a while, we will only discharge them a maximum of 50%. That leaves us with a total two-bank capacity of 18 AH. If you want to hold one battery in reserve for lighting, electronics, etc., you would need to adjust this accordingly, but for purposes of our analysis, let's say that both batteries are dedicated to autopilot use. Second, let's look at the potential of your solar panel. The USF-11 is rated is rated for a *maximum* output of 0.62 amps. This is the output at optimal panel angle, maximum solar irradiance, and everything in perfect condition. We adjust this downward by a typical 25% (as stated in the Uni-Solar manual) for system efficiency loss (basically, it takes more than 0.62 amps of power from the panel to replace 0.62 amps of battery used--it's an oversimplification, but it works here) . This brings us to a best-case realized output of 0.465 AH. Third, let's assume that you live mid-country, and according to the solar irradiation charts by region, let's say you net about 18 AH/week (or about 2.5 AH/day--a typical solar day for such analysis is 5 hours). Again, this is an optimistic situation, but let's assume you sail when it is nice and sunny. >From this, we know that a 50% discharge of our two batteries (18 AH) would take a bit more than 7 days to replace under ideal conditions (18 AH/2.5 AH), and this with no additional draw during that charging duration. What does this equate to in terms of Tiller-Pilot usage? Well, we know that the ST-1000 draws an average of 1AH. We can calculate from there. If you used it intermittently, and then only for short periods (going to the head, preparing food, reefing, reading chart--you know, short breaks from the helm) then this system might be self-sustaining indefinitely. We can see that anything more than 2.5 hours of use in one day is getting you into a deficit situation, but maybe that's OK if you are at anchor the following (sunny) day, or you are only out for a few days. Cloudy day? Adjust total downward from 10-80% depending on cloud cover/sun angle. Changing to a higher output panel, more panels, or a larger battery bank would all increase potential maximum capacity, but we need to be careful here. A larger battery bank will result in more time until 50% depth of discharge, but remember that you have to replace those amps at the same 0.465 AH rate unless you also go to a larger panel. This might be the way to go if you don't anticipate being out for more than a few days at a time and keep usage appropriately low. You could then (and probably should) hook the batteries up to a GOOD AC charger when you get back anyway. The larger group U-1 AGM batteries have a 32 AH rating, and might prove better for your purposes if this is your pattern. Similarly, you can add more panels, or go with a high-output panel, but again, this is no guarantee of adequate capacity or recovery time if the conditions don't cooperate. So, in summary, you need to determine all of your variables prior to setting up a system. Change the above numbers to fit the specifications of the equipment you are considering, and the climate where you sail. Unfortunately, there are no small (less than 4hp) outboards with charging systems available for the M15. That would be an ideal augmentation to this solar system. My guess is that the way most M-sailors use their boats (daysailing, and the occasional overnight), the above sample system would work well. The usual disclaimer applies: 'Actual mileage may vary' Note: if you are thinking about electric trolling motors and solar panels, read my earlier post! Scott M15#478 PSC Flicka #392 In a message dated 2/9/05 1:42:32 PM, montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com writes: >Hi Connie, > >Thank you for you reply to my question re self steering. When I first >bought my M15 I wanted to put an Auto helm 1000 tiller auto pilot on it >with 2 motorcycle batteries with a switch to select one or the other battery >or both batteries at the same time. I thought I would keep the batteries >charged with a solar panel on the cabin top. When I was told it wouldn't >work I didn't look into it any further. I'm still not sure how large >of a solar panel I would have needed to charge the batteries.

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NS22
by bownez＠juno.com 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Bob, Well there's another fun fact for us Hess fans, I had never heard of the Nor'Sea 22. Thanks for your input! Bones ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!

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Falmouth Cutters
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Bones, 39 +/-, and at least two lost (one recently in a hurricane in Grenada). There are always a few for sale if you know where to look. Try the Falmouth Home Page: http://homepage.mac.com/rwsailor/Menu4.html (scroll down for boats for sale). I was in the market for a Falmouth prior to purchasing my Flicka. I looked at about seven total, and the variation in condition and finish was astounding. As Bob mentioned, a good many were done as kit boats. A few I looked at were disasters. A couple others were real gems--probably even better than factory. The earlier Heritage-built hulls I saw did not seem to be quite the caliber of the later Sam Morse boats. Several had the small BMW diesels (now defunct, and hard to get parts for). Like any boat, there are problem areas. Many were delivered (or home-finished with) mahogany bulwarks and topside trim. These seem to rot and require replacement and/or repairs more frequently than those finished with teak. To truly trailer-sail one of these (I think transport is a more appropriate term), you have to have/get the extended/tall tabernacle to raise and lower the mast without hitting either the tall house or the forward scuttle. As for their being so pricey--it is all relative. When I was still looking, $25-30k would get you a nice example. Now, it is very unusual to find a decent FC for less than $45k ($50k seems more typical). This may sound like a lot of money, but you do get what you pay for. The fact is that there are so few high quality *offshore* 'pocket cruisers' built today (of which I would certainly include the Nor'Sea 27, The PSC Dana, and the FC). In fact, add these to the fairly short list of such boats ever built (the Flicka, Frances and other small Morris boats, small Shannons, etc.), and you don't have to many examples to choose from. One only needs to look at the current new prices for these boats still in production to see what is driving the used market. I would even argue that when you compare a used Falmouth (or Nor'Sea) priced at/or around $45k to that current crop of boats that Cruising World optimistically calls 'Small Cruisers' {costing considerably more, and most of which I would not trust offshore for a moment), the whole pricing thing comes into perspective. I still love the Falmouth, and would still consider owning one someday. It is important to remember, however, that it is a 31' boat overall (with all the added costs that entails). It is moveable, but I think 'trailerable' is a stretch (at least trailerable as us M-boaters are used to thinking). In the final analysis, the Falmouth and Nor'Sea were my two top choices if continous/long offshore cruises were my priority. If you are serious about sailing one, there are several here on the San Francisco Bay. Contact Ron Walton via the web site above. Scott M15 #478 PSC Flicka #392 In a message dated 2/9/05 1:42:32 PM, montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com writes: >Is it true that only 39 Falmouth Cutters have been made? No wonder they >are so rare and so pricey. My Internet search found one for sale in England, >none in the US. Love to see one real time, or better yet, sail her. > >Bones

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Re: M_Boats: Self steering...Connie...
by chbenneck＠juno.com 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Hi Bud, Hope your flu is better! Surgical tubing is nice, but regular bungee cord works just as well. Go with what you can obtain in the easiest manner. Sheet to tiller steering works fine, provided you have wind. That's the catch! No wind; no steering with that system. See Letcher's book on the various sheet to tiller steering systems he tried and used on his trip from Hawaii to the US West Coast. It's the Bible on sheet to tiller steering methods. Connie

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Self steering...Connie...
by Bud 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Hi Connie, Thank you for you reply to my question re self steering. When I first bought my M15 I wanted to put an Auto helm 1000 tiller auto pilot on it with 2 motorcycle batteries with a switch to select one or the other battery or both batteries at the same time. I thought I would keep the batteries charged with a solar panel on the cabin top. When I was told it wouldn't work I didn't look into it any further. I'm still not sure how large of a solar panel I would have needed to charge the batteries. Jerry Montgomery suggest I use surgical tubing looped to the tiller which I had planned on doing but never did. I found a place that sold the surgical tubing in another city but was never able to get there when they were open. At that time I worked many hours and had little time to use the boat. Now my thinking is to use both a line and surgical tubing and also jib sheet to tiller. The farthest I've sailed in one day was 34 NM. Most of my sailing will port to port. I use a Garmin GPS 48. Nothing fancy but it gets the job done and is quite simple to use. Simple is what I need! Thanks again for your help. Sorry I didn't answer you sooner. I'm trying to get over the flu right now. Fair winds Bud M15 #500 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

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Re: M_Boats: Sam L Morse web page revamped
by bownez＠juno.com 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Is it true that only 39 Falmouth Cutters have been made? No wonder they are so rare and so pricey. My Internet search found one for sale in England, none in the US. Love to see one real time, or better yet, sail her. Bones ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!

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Does anyone have a layout for jib downhaul line
by nbundek 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

I want to add a jib downhaul on my M15. Does anyone have a layout for the line running aft? I don't want it interfering with the jib sheets. Norm M15 #172

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Self Steering...Tod
by Bud 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Tod, Thank you so much for your help with the self steering question. This is how I'll set my M15 up, sheet to tiller. Thanks again. Fair winds Bud M15 #500 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free!

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more photo's
by MC Carpenter 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

Hi Bill, are any of these photo's useful for purpose. http://home.earthlink.net/~southisland2/

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