March 2002 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Montgomery 23 update and some improvements
by Bob 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

The 23 deck mold is completely done. Were getting ready to lay up the first deck in the new mold. (still waxing) Now were almost done with the interior modifications. In the past 2 weeks, Jerry Montgomery has also finished up a sail plan drawing that shows the cutter rig, bowsprit and boomkin detail. We plan on being able to roll-up a 125% genny if desired and this will enhance windward ability. Tom Wilkinson (who has a new model 17) dropped by to visit Jerry and myself a few days ago and he saw the profile/sailplan drawing of the new 23. He liked it, so we have printed up a couple of dozen to mail out (free) to anyone interested. Just email me direct with your name and address and Jerry and I will send you a Montgomery 23 profile drawing that has the sailplan. Improvements: After looking at some older boats I noticed that some of them have little chip marks on the bottom edge of the hull/deck flange. This is normal for an exposed edge like this. However on recent boats we built we are installing a little upside down 'U' and attaching it with 5200. This will protect the edge from chipping and those of you that already have this on your recently purchased Montgomery have indictated you really like this improvement. (The material is a vinyl made especially for boats) Bob Campbell (who may be a new father by now) was visiting the boatshop recently and he really liked this idea. It keeps the boat looking fresh and in any case the molding can be removed. We think its a good improvement. Fair winds Bob

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Re: M_Boats: New member [s]
by Mark Pavuk 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

This is not male bashing. It is incorrect grammar bashing from a former teacher. I just can't help it! Cherri ---------- From: Sandyal55(a)aol.com To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New member [s] Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 8:01 PM In a message dated 03/19/2002 8:57:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, mcpavuk(a)worldnet.att.net writes: He is still wrong if his grammar is incorrect :) Cherri Now Cherri; No male bashing here please. Sandy ( Is Sandy a man or a woman? hmmm)

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Re: M_Boats: f l i c k a 2 0 vs M23
by stevemc35＠attbi.com 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

Thanks Scott for that excellent rundown on Flickas, etc. I've always been a bit enamoured of the Flicka, but have never had the chance to check one out at close range. I wasn't familiar with the Falmouth Cutter at all so I checked out the web site, http://www.samlmorse.com/FC/ Man, what a beautiful boat! Oh well, for right now I have barely enough room to keep the boat I have--maybe some day! -- Steve McClellan 1981 M15 #152 stevemc35(a)attbi.com

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Re: M_Boats: f l i c k a 2 0 vs M23
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

In a message dated 3/19/02 7:30:11 PM, htmills(a)bright.net writes: << Years ago there was a Flicka at the Sandusky in-the-water boat show. It certainly is a neat boat but I have heard several times that it's strong suites are not light air or beating and that would be my main concern if I were in the market for that sort of boat.>> I have spent considerable time sailing on a friend's Flicka this past year, and I have to say that the urban lore regarding light air performance and pointing ability is at least somewhat exaggerated. As with most displacement/full keel boats I have sailed, you need to carry sufficient canvas for the conditions. As with Westsail 32's, the Flicka does not like to be undercanvased, and will protest by wallowing. A 100% working jib in 5 knots of wind is not going to cut it. Most Flicka sailors have a good size genoa and/or a drifter. While the Flicka does not point as well as many lightweight fin keelers, I was pleasantly surprised on what we could do with right sails and trim. The one place the Flicka suffers a bit is in trying to punch into steep chop while on a beat or close reach. Reports that Flickas will not tack or are generally dogs are gross exaggerations. Like any full keel boat, you need to have some way on before tacking, and you don't want to pull the jib across prematurely. <<One good thing about them is that there are enough of them around that the price is often very reasonable.>> There are indeed quite a few out there. I have, however, only seen a couple of boats that I would consider bargains in my16 years of looking. It is true that there are some Flickas out there for very little money, but they are generally boats with problems (poorly done owner-finished boats, bad blister problems and/or hydrolysis, deck rot, etc.). In general, you can expect to pay anywhere between $15,000 - $23,000 for older Flickas with outboards, plastic ports, aluminum toe rails, etc. Outboard boats with bronze ports, teak toe rail, and enclosed head push prices can bring as much as $28,000. Diesel versions (usually a Yanmar YSM 8 in older boats, and Yanmar 1GM in later) are rarely found under $20,000, and they go for up to $40,000 and beyond for later boats (at least one 1996 I know of went for more than $50,000. NADA valuations tend to be hopelessly low--especially for the earlier boats. BUC valuations tend to be more realistic--especially with the later boats. I would guess that I have looked at about 30-40 Flickas over the last 10 years. Almost every boat that was kept in the water year-round had some kind of blisters. If you are lucky, they are small and superficial gel coat blisters. If you are unlucky (like one owner of a 1985 I know of) you end up removing 30% or more of the hull and rebuilding it because the outer laminate layers are 100% hydrolyzed. Granted, boats with this condition are more the exception than the rule, but Pacific Seacraft did have some serious problems with resins--especially during the mid 1980's. They changed to a vinylester resin sometime during or after 1988. I have yet to see a 1989 or later Flicka with any blisters. Anyone considering a Flicka is advised to perform a thorough hull moisture test. <<For better performance, I'd put my money on the Falmouth Cutter and for even better performance (except maybe in a *major* blow?) the M 23.>> There is no doubt that the Falmouth is a faster and higher pointing boat than the Flicka. If you compare sa/d ratios, however, the Falmouth is still one very heavy boat. I would attribute some of the performance increase to the longer waterline, but I would say more important is the very fine entry typical of Lyle's designs. The M23 also carries its beam well aft. While I have not sailed one, I suspect that they are fast and weatherly. The trade off with such a fine entry is that there seems to be very little space forward. This was particularly true of the one M23 I have seen. Falmouth Cutters don't come cheap. Right now, I only know of two on the market. Both are asking around $45,000. They are somewhat hard to find given that there are only 35 or so out there (there may be a few more by now, as Sam Morse CO. is still making them). Last time I checked, a new boat was something over $100,000. I love the Falmouth, but for that kind of money, I would certainly look at the used Nor'Sea 27's. (they are, after all, nearly the same length over all, and displace nearly the same). One thing I am not fond of on the Falmouth is the widow-maker bowsprit. I know Larry Pardey would scoff, but I personally don't feel comfortable out on a 4" x 4" beam in even the best of conditions. <<Light air performance is one of my Thistle's strongest points: it'll still be moving long after nearly every other boat on the water has given up and fired up the iron jib.>> Accommodations are a bit limited though! :) Scott Grometer, M15 #478 'bebe' _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >>

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Re: M_Boats: f l i c k a 2 0 vs M23
by Michael L Bowden 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

Dear Harvey, Cal, Bob, Jerry, Larry, Richard, and listers, Being a proud, happy M17 sailer for 5 seasons I too had become infected with "two foot itus". I looked at dozens of sailboats to gain knowledge about what is available in the real world, what is desirable to me, and what is the end cost. The list of many was narrowed to the list of a few. Visiting the Strictly Sail Show in Chicago with Theo last winter confirmed that most all new production boats had nothing to offer that I was looking for. My list was narrowed to the Flicka, a Cape Dory 25D or 26, or finding a rare M23. Well, I had sailed Theo's M23 on several occasions, and loved many aspects of her. I finally got aboard a Flicka, and although a beautiful small boat with seagoing features, it was too small for my 6'3" lanky body. The cockpit is small and missing the high backrest coamings of the 17 and 23. I have not sailed a Flicka, but at 6000 lbs she must be sluggish in light air. We all like sailing a boat that has some performance. The CD25D is also a beautiful boat. I almost went for this one. Lovely lines, classic Alberg styling, bronze, Lots of room below, but a small diesel with difficult access. I understand this is a rather "stiff" sailer, I have sailed a close cousin, a Bristol 27 on San Francisco Bay. Lo and behold, I had a chance to purchase Sadhana, Larry Barkhuff's M23, formerly Richard Lane's. Upon viewing her, I knew she was the one for me. I think one of the most important buying decisions in choosing a sailboat is where and under what conditions the boat is going to be used. I'm in Minnesoooota, there there are numerous large, beautiful and remote lakes to be expored. I wanted a boat my wife and I could comfortably weekend aboard. I wanted a keel-centerboarder for shallow bays. A heavy displacement full keel boat has it's place on Superior, or the coastlines. The majority of my sailing will be done on inland waters. I don't plan to trailer the M23 like an M17, but the ability to move it once a season without a travel-lift and flatbead semi is a huge plus. Anyway, I believe there is a boat out there for every purpose, and every taste. I'll be sticking with the lovely Lyle Hess Montgomerys. Later, Michael "Bones" Bowden M23 #75 M17 #92 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: M_Boats: Re: montgomery_boats digest, Vol 1 #142 - 5 msgs
by Rotortom2＠aol.com 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

I have to agree with Dan. The grammer (grammar) thing is getting old. I have learned a lot from this list, and have enjoyed the sailing stories, but enough is enough. I fly helicopters for a living and am attracted to helicopter stuff on the net. Go to http://www.justhelicopters.com/frontpage.html, then to the "forum", and see if you would like our site to degenerate to the point of that one! Love to all, Tom M-17 Wild Hare

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Introduction
by Harvey Wilson 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

There is a Flicka with outboard at my old dock, and a diesel version at another marina on Lake Lanier, Ga. As good looking as a Montgomery, IMO, and something that I'd love to upgrade to. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294

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Re: montgomery_boats digest, Vol 1 #142 - 5 msgs
by Bkmdanocaribbean＠aol.com 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

What has become of this fine group??We have been denigrated to a chat room. Lets get our act together and get back to basics. We all share a common interest in these fine boats, and lets keep it that way. I recently participated in the Heineken Regatta in St. Maarten and experienced first hand what camaraderie in sailing is all about on a world class level. I am a multi-licensed electrician in several states and countries and am willing to contribute to this group in any small way that I can assist. Dan Bolbrock M-17 #220 Montpetit

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RE: M_Boats: grammar and other stuff
by Morris, Giles 23 Mar '02

23 Mar '02

>It appears that any one of us could have trouble with grammar Ain't that the truth! It's fascinating (to me, at least) how the language has changed over time. And how parts of what we consider grammar have little reason for existing, while others are but remnants of the older versions of the language. Somebody mentioned yesterday, I think, that Lloyds want to stop referring to vessel as "she" -- which I suspect is one of the last vestiges of grammatical gender in English. Or a preposition being a bad thing to end a sentence with? Why? (Hint: There's no good reason). This language stuff is fun! Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 "Umiaq" Sundry small craft Mark

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Re: M_Boats: grammar and Chimpanzee update
by Conbert H Benneck 22 Mar '02

22 Mar '02

John, Thanks for your update on Chimpanzee's progress. On your first sail, may you splash gently; have fair winds; a warm sun and a most enjoyable experience. Now about that Tom Sawyer teak varnishing routine: Man you must be a smooth talker. A learning experience! I admire your approach. I never found anyone but myself who would varnish teak on my old boat, and finally after fighting it for years, decided that silver grey teak looked very nice indeed. That is until I finally decided to sell the boat, and then, I polished and cleaned; scrubbed and varnished, and left the new owner to start the long learning process all over again. Happy splashing - and don't forget a proper christening ceremony. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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