July 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: off-topic (some zorn content)
by Arthur Gadney 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Hello. >>I pretty much agree with whoever it was who said that this discussion has >>ventured too far off topic, so I will only make this one comment. > >Hmmm...this discussion has ventured way off-topic but I'm pretty interested >in what people here have to say. I think one of the strengths of the >zornlist is the community aspect of it and you can't always just limit it >to strictly Zorn or even strictly music. I agree, but it seemed like the community might have had enough... If so, I think people should certainly speak up. >As for Zorn and why we don't talk much about him...personally, I'm just >kind of bored with most of his stuff. Well, it'skind of ironic, but he releases so many CDs that it's hard to keep being excited. Especially since mnmay of the recebt ones are fairly similar, and not all of them exactly amazing. And of course the fact, that he never tours. Most of the people on this list almost never have a chance to see him play. Bye, Very interesting subject line, btw ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

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cecil t. packaging?
by Acousticlv＠aol.com 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

hi gang, i just got an email from north country saying they will wait for corrected pressings of the new cecil taylor 10 cd box before they sell em. the price theyre asking on reserve still seems steep, 185 before sh&tax. does anyone know what the packaging is like? yrs steve koenig n.p. sly and the family stone: stand! n.r. perry robinson- the traveller

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off-topic (some zorn content)
by D Dvb 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

>I pretty much agree with whoever it was who said that this discussion has >ventured too far off topic, so I will only make this one comment. Hmmm...this discussion has ventured way off-topic but I'm pretty interested in what people here have to say. I think one of the strengths of the zornlist is the community aspect of it and you can't always just limit it to strictly Zorn or even strictly music. As for Zorn and why we don't talk much about him...personally, I'm just kind of bored with most of his stuff. I didn't like the Gift and Taboo & Exile is ok but not gripping. Actually, the only project of his I really love is Masada. Naked City is alright but repeated listens to me reveal a pastiche of styles that don't quite transcend the genres he blends (actually, he doesn't so much blend as ram genres together). Actually, a lot of his stuff strikes me as that...Zorn's attempt at electronic music or his attempt at exotica or his attempt at chamber music, etc. I agree with Miles when he says that you gotta get it in your blood. Some of the older listers will probably point to his older catalog (Spy Vs. Spy, News for Lulu, Big Gundown) but I'm didn't hop on until Masada and some of those older releases didn't have that impact on me. --davy np Gush "Live in Tampere" nr Graham Lock "Chasing the Vibration" _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

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Re: french mcDonalds
by Nvinokur＠aol.com 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

In a message dated 7/10/02 4:05:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vmeersschaert(a)wanadoo.be writes: << France and Belgium >> mussels and beer

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french mcDonalds
by SonataPathetique＠aol.com 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Whenever I goto France, the giant M from McDonalds seems like a gateway to paradise, especially when in the more rural areas. I never eat McD's in America but in Europe, it seems like the best food in the world. In Paris, it is the cheapest food you can find (or at least that I can find) and in the rest of the country it is the best tasting (I am only comparing McD's with the places I can afford to eat). Evil corp or not, when I am starving, theres no time for politics. Seth

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Le McDonalds
by MorMovies＠aol.com 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

I think the Belgians invented French Fries?!

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Re: Starbucks, Zorn, etc.
by Zachary Steiner 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

>> Along those lines, several European nations still have active fascist (!) par ties who place in elections, something that never happens in the U.S.. No matter how much anyone might dislike George Bush, the guy's no fascist, and the closest this country has come to providing one in recent years (Pat Buchanan, David Duke) have gotten laughed off of the polls. The US supports fascist (well not always called fascist, but they do behave as such) regimes...remember Chile? Maybe not Bush, but Ashcroft has some serious fascist leanings. I think he pushed it beyond ultra-rightwing into the realm of fascism. >> Times food critic, with all the small hole in the wall restaurants and coffee shops he tried, many run by recent Italian arrivals who barely spoke English, he said one of the few decent cups of espresso he had was at (ta-dah!) Starbucks. I love Italian espresso and the espresso of many indie coffee houses...I nearly vomit when I have Starbucks's! It tastes acidic enough that you feel as if your stomach lining is being eaten away. Their coffee is not much better. I don't drink there because of politics; I don't drink there because their coffee is putrid. Zach

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Re: Starbucks, Zorn, etc.
by Fritz Feger 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Josh, you write you'd lean toward cultural exchange over nationalism. And then: >but c'mon: be reasonable and realistic. >This country's basic principles of free speech alone set it apart from every >other country in the world, and for that I think the world is better off, no >matter how many coffee shops might disappear. I'm German and I agree with a lot of what you say. Germany, in an attempt to overcome the national trauma of the Third Reich, is possibly one of the most "Americanized" countries in Europe. Plus I personally am a great admirer of much which emerged from America and arrived over here, not only musically. But the way you put your last paragraph contains a great deal of that kind of American self-consciousness which drives crazy even those who embrace American culture and products. You cannot expect from Europe which experienced the first democracy over thousand years before what now is considered America even existed, which had revolutions and democratic constitutions earlier than America, which had the enlightenment and so on, to applaud your generous offer. I know more than one American in Europe who says she or he doesn't want to go home after the 11th September. You know why? Because there, so they tell me, they feel uncomfortable with telling their opinion, e.g. about treating arabic prisoner bad etc. Maybe there's a difference between Texas or the countryside in general and NYC, but c'mon: be realistic, Texas is a part of the US, even the biggest ;-). You cannot but understand that members of other democratic societies are frustrated by the American No to the Kyoto Protocol or, even worse, the boycott of the International Court. The reason for the American rejection is IMO that lots of Americans, to the dismay of others who claim the same properties, identify America with freedom and democracy. Why would anyone bother to be Americanized if the American way is by definition good? The American is good and the rest of the world is either bad, like the whole Islamic world apart from those who supply America with oil, or marginal, like Europe. The American refutation to commit itself to an international jurisdiction like the one America inventend and imposed on Germany in the Nuremberg Processes is seen as an arrogance of power, as a grotesque failure to abstract from the "American" point of view. I hope this has helped a bit to illuminate the bad feelings which are sometimes evoked by the American hegemony. Though I don't know Japan so much, I'd imagine that the reasons are somewhat similar over there. One further remark considering the Starbucks-McDonalds-thing (is this the McWorld-issue I quote?): What I personally dislike about those two, or rather about the whole chain idea which is a very American idea, is the loss of diversity aspect. Maybe I like to have a Cheeseburger and a McRib with such a big bucket of Coke once in a while. But I'm irritated by the fact that in areas of lower something people begin to eat the same stuff all over the world and every day, and that I find me exposed to the same boring stuff in every f*#~ing city all over the world. All the best; Fritz. ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.de ##############################################

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Re: Starbucks, Zorn, etc.
by Arthur Gadney 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Hello, I pretty much agree with whoever it was who said that this discussion has ventured too far off topic, so I will only make this one comment. Imperialism or what you want to call whatever is creating strong anti-American feelings in all over the world goes a fair bit beyond opening new MacDonald restuarants: Global Interventions since 1945: China 45-51, France 47, Marshall Islands 46-58, Italy 47-70s, Greece 47-49, Philippines 45-53, Korea 45-53, Albania 49-53, Eastern Europe 48-56, Germany 50s, Iran 53, Guatemala 53-90s, Costa Rica 50s, 70-71, Middle East 56-58, Indonesia 57-58, Haiti 59, Western Europe 50s-60s, British Guiana 53-64, Iraq 58-63, Soviet Union 40s-60s, Vietnam 45-73, Cambodia 55-73, Laos 57-73, Thailand 65-73, Ecuador 60-63, Congo-Zaire 77-78, France-Algeria 60s, Brazil 61-63, Peru 65, Dominican Republic 63-65, Cuba 59-, Indonesia 65, Ghana 66, Uruguay 69-72, Chile 64-73, Greece 67-74, South Africa 60s-80s, Bolivia 64-75, Australia 72-75, Iraq 72-75, Portugal 74-76, East Timor 75-99, Angola 75-80s, Jamaica 76, Honduras 80s, Nicaragua 78-90s, Philippines 70s, Seychelles 79-81, South Yemen 79-84, South Korea 80, Chad 81-82, Grenada 79-83, Suriname 82-84, Libya 81-89, Fiji 87, Panama 89, Afghanistan 79-92, El Salvador 80-92, Haiti 87-94, Bulgaria 90-91, Albania 91-92, Somalia 93, Iraq 90s, Peru 90s, Mexico 90s, Colombia 90s, Yugoslavia 95-99. The interventions took the form of bombings in 25 cases: China 45-46, Korea/China 50-53, Guatemala 54, Indonesia 58, Cuba 60-61, Guatemala 60, Vietnam 61-73, Congo 64, Peru 65, Laos 64-73, Cambodia 69-70, Guatemala 67-69, Grenada 83, Lebanon-Syria 83-84, Libya 86, El Salvador 80s, Nicaragua 80s, Iran 87, Panama 89, Iraq 91-, Kuwait 91, Somalia 93, Sudan 98, Afghanistan 98, Yugoslavia 99. Assassinations, attempted or successful, of leaders including heads of state, were tried in 35 cases, and assistance in torture in 11 countries (Greece, Iran, Germany, Vietnam, Bolivia, Uruguay, Brazil, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Panama). Very vehement are the actions against leaders who once worked with the USA because they had an enemy in common: Pol Pot, Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, Mohammed Aidid and Osama bin Laden. Countries where USA "perverted elections", ie interfering with a democratic process: Italy 48-70s, Lebanon 50s, Indonesia 55, Vietnam 55, Guayana 53-64, Japan 58-70s, Nepal 59, Laos 60, Brazil 62, Dominican Republic 62, Guatemala 63, Bolivia 66, Chile 64-70, Portugal 74-5, Australia 74-5, Jamaica 76, Panama 84, 89, Nicaragua 84,90, Haiti 87-88, Bulgaria 91-92, Russia 96, Mongolia 96, Bosnia 98. >You know, I'm never surprised yet somehow I still find it somewhat shocking >that America attracts so much scorn and disdain for policies and practices >that nearly every country is to blame for. Just curious: Which policies are you talking about which "nearly every country is to blame for" but which you think are only credited to USA? >I mean, there are a lot of >problems in the world, and some of the biggest ones are hardly America's >fault. A pretty strange argument, I must say. >The American cultural presence in Europe and Japan could possibly >stem from the fact that, left to their own nationalistic tendencies and >combined with America's own then-isolationists policies in the first >half >of >the 20th century, Germany and Japan tried to take over the frickin >world, Please remember that USA supported both Japan and Germany a fair share of the way. >South America and >Africa are rife with governments so corrupt that entire continents >sometimes >seem on the verge of collapse. Which, of course, USA has always been a solid suporter of. The most horrible example comming to my mind is probably Mobutu in Congo whom George Bush, the oldest one, called "Our greatest friend in Africa" even though he was a cruel dictator who robbed the country of billions of dollars. And there is the cases where you are absolutely right, USA is not responsible for creating the problems like in Rwanda which lead to almost one million massacred in 1994, but were directly responsible for stopping solutions which could have prevented it. And so on the list goes. It's interesting how often people brush of critism of USA by saying "Hey, Starbuck/Blockbuster/MacDonalds/etc are not so bad! If you don't like it, it's your free choice not to support them". >This country's basic principles of free speech alone set it apart from >every >other country in the world, You must be joking... I'm sorry, but I think you are living in an absolute fantasy world. Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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Starbucks
by Tosh 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Besides hating the decor of Starbucks, I also hate their coffee drinks. Too bitter tasting and too much ice in their coffee shakes. Besides that they also have no character and their uniforms look silly! Also I hate the fact that they open right up next to independent coffee shops. Which comes to mind my favorite coffee shop in Japan experiences. My wife and I went in this coffee shop by chance that looked like someone's living room. An old man was reading the paper, he saw us and only told us that the only thing on the menu was coffee. So we ordered coffee - which tasted like instant coffee. So the coffee was horrible, but the surroundings were fantastic. It sort of reminded me of the interior of the big rooms in the film 'Performance.' Another great experience at a coffee shop was in Shinjuku Tokyo. I was told that this place served the most expensive coffees in Tokyo. I ordered a $6 cup of coffee. With that cup of coffee which was brewed only for one - I also had two waiters serving me. One held out the chair for me to sit and get up. The other made sure I had a supply of fresh napkins. If I used one, he would replace it with another right away. The experience was quite surreal and very amusing. Also the decor of the coffee shops in Tokyo from the 50's/60's are really cool. Low tables and chairs. Very clean straight edge and no frills design. So yes, one has the choice, but the choices are getting smaller instead of bigger. There are more chains now than individual coffee shops. My guess is that most people prefer the chain, but as someone of the minority I feel great sadness when I see a Starbucks. What this has to do with John Zorn, I don't know! Except I think his music and aesthetic is from these 'odd' coffee shops rather than the local (always consistantly local) Starbucks. -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com

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