July 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: re : mcdonalds
by Dgasque＠aol.com 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jzitt(a)metatronpress.com writes: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:48:38 +0200 > "> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >" <mail(a)chromasoom.be> wrote: > > > How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture... > > How odd, you really seem to have no clue as to American culture. There > are actually a wide variety of American food cultures and regional > cooking styles. A moment of actual research and thought might avoid > foolish comments such as that. He definitely needs to visit South Carolina. Our "meat 'n three" resturants and our barbeque buffets are cuisines untouched by anyone else. -- =dg=

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Benoit Viguier
by Tim Blechmann 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

sorry for using this group for this: Benoit Viguier, if you recieve this message, please contact me privately. if anyone has his email address, please let me know. thanks for your time... Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.net ICQ: 96771783 http://www.nyds-exp-discogs.tk -- The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!" Jack Kerouac

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Re: mcdonald's
by thesubtlebody 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

S.Smith wrote: > I've been quietly sitting here on my hands for days > now, quietly wishing that > a small handful of smug, sanctimonious individuals > would just fucking TRY to > remember once in a while that George W. Bush is not > synonymous with "America" > and imperialism/colonialism is not synonymous with > "America" and McDonald's is > not synonymous with "America." But that is what we're working with/against now---those modes of commerce/politics are basically what dominant in the way power works in our country. Aside from the rhetorical excesses of the inevitable bilious minority, it's worth noting that for at least those of us who are Americans, we are in a better position to criticize the shortcomings of our own culture than someone else's, and it needs to be done. There are more people spraining shoulders congrtulating themselves on living in this wealthy unstoppable juggernaut of a nation. Dubya IS synonymous with America to billions of people, and---quite unfortunately---American citizens are responsible to one degree or another for what happens while he presides over our government (the same applies in a less iconic way to our legislative bodies in general). There's nothing smug about pointing out that America does whatever it wants to (this driven home by two hardly-critical political scientists on NPR just yesterday evening), due to its peerless economic and military strength; and what our military, corporate, and political institutions does comes home to roost for normal people, powerless individuals, working people. Questions of tone notwithstanding, how is it "smug" to question what's happening? Because I don't see that happening on TV, and I don't hear it happening on the radio, and public discourse is a wasteland for anything resembling humility or autocritical dialogue. > But to the next person who wants to flog "us" with > 'Fast Food Nation' (a > brutally fascinating book, BTW), Please. Myself and one other listmember mentioned the book, and not in a sanctimonious fashion. Our mentioning it might, however, qualify as a public service. It's an amazing, essential, terribly polemical read. I still eat flesh without losing sleep, but FAST FOOD NATION is a powerful reminder of how diets are molded for profit on a massive level, with serious impacts that will roost on our grandkids' heads. After reading that book, the "uncritical acceptance" (paraphrasing Patrice) of McD's by European youth starts to take on the patina of masochism exploited, or novelty used as fulcrum...kind of like trading everything for trinkets and beads because of one's own "naive" sense of value. Some of the things America invents, or perfects, also yield disastrous consequences here first; America would beat the world to the "finish line", at which...the abyss. So here some of us come running, back toward the world, saying, "Turn back! There's NOTHING THERE!" >...please try to > remind yourself that wherever > you are, chances are good that someone near you > chose to apply for that > McDonald's franchise instead of opening a quaint > little local eatery, capice? Oh, I'm reminded wherever I go, as are many of my friends in Europe, China, and elsewhere. Many people think this fact, this choice, is a crying shame, and that the cards are increasingly stacked against the "new", unfranchised restaurants from the get-go. >...and yet I > still say that this > seemingly shallow little mongrel un-culture has a > lot more going for it than > most lapsed empires of the world care to admit. I am not a big fan of the American philosopher Richard Rorty's work, but it is interesting, and more significantly, Rorty seems to position American ideas prominently among both analytic (Anglo-American) and continental European thought, shaping a bold and socially conscious new political philosophy. He's one of many who trace lineages of brilliance, improvisation, and contribution back through America's history, and he does so without appearing to feed the fires of jingoism. I don't think we need to be apologists for the non-choice and no-future being peddled by fast food culture, in order to assert that America is a remarkable country with great achievements. -----s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com

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offtopic /american food culture
by Acousticlv＠aol.com 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

In a message dated 7/11/02 7:30:57 AM, zorn-list-request(a)mailman.xmission.com writes: << Eating mcd in France, because u can't find any better/cheaper? How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture... JaWe >> dear J i agree, of course, that its doubtful one cant find quick or good food cheaper than mcD's. (im was shocked when one person wrote when he's hungry hes hungry-- buy a load of bread... sheesh!) but the thing that always shocks me is how expensive mcD is in nyc, especially in contrast to small restaurants, especially ethnic ones. for the same five dollars, good chinese or indian food always. but we DO have american food culture, not the least of which is southern ("soul food") or cajun/new orleans style. much else if you look. just not in the chain restaurants. yrs steve koenig n.p. piney brown ^ eddie mack- hoot & holler saturday night- delmark/apollo

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Fwd: Re: American Culture (was McDonalds)
by Efrén del Valle 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

> Let's order up a round of Big Macs, put on 'Country > Music in the World of > Islam,' and discuss the meaning of the term > 'postmodern.' It's certainly one of the most stupid adjectives, together with "after-punk" and "minimalism". But we need some guides... Best, EfrÃ©n _______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Nueva versiÃ³n: Webcam, voz, y mucho mÃ¡s Â¡Gratis! DescÃ¡rgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es

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Re: Fwd: American Culture (was McDonalds)
by Zachary Steiner 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

>> Sorry but if I'm not wrong, computing was born in the old U.S.S.R under the name of "Informatika". And it was recently proved that Mr. Bell actually developed a communication model that had been invented (and rejected by manufacturers) many years before his acclaimed discovery... and the actual inventor was European! << I think the distinction between invention and innovation is the taking it to the masses, making it an indepensible part of culture. Even farther, something that changes cultures. Whereas these inventions were developed elsewhere, it was through the efforts of Americans that made these items such central items to culture. Could you imagine walking across town to a friend's house to ask him a simple question? Most people would just call him up. The automobile is another example; the landscape of the US (and I imagine to a lesser extent other parts of the world) changed drastically because of the car. It's almost impossible to have a job now in the US with out a car, unless you live in certain cities. There is something to say for being a good businessperson, it's almost as important as invention. Americans do seem to be good at selling things, even that which probably doesn't need to be sold. I don't by any means begrudge these people credit for these inventions (they probably deserve more), but I do believe that distribution of these inventions is a very important part of the equation, else the only telephone would be in the inventor's attic. Zach

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Fwd: American Culture (was McDonalds)
by Efrén del Valle 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

Hi, > > It could be argued that Americans have no culture > what so ever. America > has only existed in a global age. There was no time > for its culture to > evolve in isolation (despite the desire of many > conservatives). From > the beginning American culture has been affected by > other cultures in > the world, both indirectly and directly > (immigrants). Totally agreeable. Then comes the discussion whether the collision or mixture of cultures is enriching or makes the borders vanish to an excessive extent, making the recipient culture lose its actual idiosincracy. Or even more, if that clash or mixture is the real idiosincracy of those cultures. Could be, and the US and Japan would be good examples, IMHO. I do > think that there are > some uniquely American culture inventions (not all > of them good and in > no particular order) such as television, fast food, > jazz, film (I will > concede non-Americans have done and do film just as > well if not better > than Americans), telephone, computers, various other > technical Sorry but if I'm not wrong, computing was born in the old U.S.S.R under the name of "Informatika". And it was recently proved that Mr. Bell actually developed a communication model that had been invented (and rejected by manufacturers) many years before his acclaimed discovery... and the actual inventor was European! > > In the above comment about Naked City, substitute > cultures for styles > and you have a pretty accurate description of > American culture. So, I > guess Zorn is a truly an American artist, Although many try to accuse him of practicing a pastiche that could be regarded as postmodernism. I don't sense his music as postmodern either. Best, EfrÃ©n del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Nueva versiÃ³n: Webcam, voz, y mucho mÃ¡s Â¡Gratis! DescÃ¡rgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es

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Re: French Macdonalds
by Bill Ashline 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

>From MorMovies(a)aol.com Very true, my friend in Barcelona. Who on this list is forced by some imperial corporate storm troopers to eat at McDonalds? I live in New York City and rarely ever go to McDonalds. I have a choice of a seemingly infinite choice of small ethnic restaurants. The U.S. imperalist argument gets so over-simplified and ludicrous. Long live freedom of choice and death to all LIES that reside within every culture (and in my opinion, EVERY culture is 99.9% bullshit!< Let's see if I get this straight, if every culture is 99.9% bullshit, and this statement is part of a culture that produced it, which it would have to be in order to be uttered in the first place, then there is a 0.1% chance that this statement is true. And if it is the case that this statement is not true, which would be the case 999 times out of a thousand, it would mean that the statement that every culture is 99.9% bullshit is itself bullshit. And if that's the case, then I think we've hit the liar's paradox, which at this point, is becoming music to my ears. ------------------------------------- His face is turned towards the past. Where we preceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the angel can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. --Walter Benjamin on the Angel of History _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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imperialism
by giuliana ferraris 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

I was in Bosnia two years ago visiting friends and they hate America and do you know why? Bombs, soldiers wandering around showing contempt and a disgusting sense of superiority (I have seen it with my eyes). I am not aginst America or Americans, but I am against American AND European imperialism. And no, culture (and the cross-contamination of cultures) is not 99% bullshit, the omologation that Bush, Blair and their friends in the "civilised world" want to impose is BULLSHIT. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Re: Starbucks, Zorn, etc.
by Arthur Gadney 10 Jul '02

10 Jul '02

Hello. >You cannot but understand that members of other democratic societies are >frustrated by the American No to the Kyoto Protocol or, Not so much that they said no (since not everybody agrees with the Kyoto Protokol), but more the way they did it. They pretty much just walked out. That's not the way you deal with something which has taken years and years to prepare. You present an alternative. The problem is that USA acts agressive, arrogant, often selfishly and as hypocrites in international affairs. >The American refutation to commit itself to an international jurisdiction >like the one America inventend and imposed on Germany in the Nuremberg >Processes is seen as an arrogance of power, as a grotesque failure to >abstract from the "American" point of view. Very well put. >I hope this has helped a bit to illuminate the bad feelings which are >sometimes evoked by the American hegemony. Though I don't know Japan so >much, I'd imagine that the reasons are somewhat similar over there. Yes, certainly, however far stronger. For many reasons, not the least being that USA still have something like 50000 troops in Japan. Cheers. PS: I have never tasted a Starbucks coffe, but locally I have a great little coffe shop where I can get many special "homemade" flavours and they will prepare it while you wait and all that. It's run by a very nice american guy, btw. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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