November 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: No Subject
by Crowmeat Bob 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

well, you're right -- it's not up to me to determine how incendiary something is. But it's not a given that a fistfight would be more influential than a change in academic perception. How physically safe you are doesn't necessarily enter into the equation. >The most culturally revolutionary thing about Beethoven is much more >practical -- that he was the first major composer to make a living in the >private sector. Just from listening to Ludwig van's later stuff, I'd say he had a lot more sheerly musical relevance than you're suggesting. Seems like making a living in the private sector was just a necessary move, given the changing economic and social climate for musicians. But the musical and the economic are inextricably related on many levels, so I can see how right you are here. >From: skip Heller <velaires(a)earthlink.net> >To: Crowmeat Bob <crowmeat(a)hotmail.com>,<zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: No Subject >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:41:31 -0800 > >The Godhead of white civilized culture is, of course, Eminem or Bach. >It's >so hard to keep them straight. > >As for Beethoven's position in any culture, that's probably only of >interest >within the academe, which means -- at it's most incendiary -- Braxton is >stirring up a tempest in a teacup. Who would make an asserion about >Beethoven like that unless he specifically wanted to tick off a bunch of >guys who teach composition? What are those guys gonna do? Start a >fistfight? >Not likely. You're safer questioning one of their figureheads than you are >by saying something similar about Malcom X in earshot of Chuck D. > >The most culturally revolutionary thing about Beethoven is much more >practical -- that he was the first major composer to make a living in the >private sector. No matter what color you are, it's still hard for a >composer to make a living writing challenging stuff, unless he's around >some >of Hollywood's most deranged film producers (which happens just often >enough >for it not to be ruled out). > >sh > > >I find it brilliant because it goes straight for the godhead of > > white civilized culture and, instead of taking the angle that Beethoven >only > > made structural additions to a phallocentric, heirarchical tradition, it > > undermines his very identity and position in that culture. Cultural >purists > > who vehemently deny Beethoven was 'of Moorish descent' only reveal their >own > > racism in attempting to preserve the whiteness of their cultural giants >from > > the dark forces of historical revisionism. Or is it a case of 'reverse > > revisionism'? > > who gives a fuck really if he was black or white or somewhere on the >gray > > scale, ultimately, aside from the Purists? > > I just think it's brilliant because it 'puts a black-gloved fist up the >diz > > of all conservative musical architects', to paraphrase someone claiming >to > > be Thomas Pynchon. > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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RE: Zorn as a player?
by Crowmeat Bob 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

I really dig the Krauss trio record I've got on tape -- 'Good kitty' with Chris Speed. Also this fine Andrea Parkins record with Wollesen. His tone really knocked me out for a while. And Roscoe Mitchell is classic. More recently, I've gotten into Frank Gratkowski. He's got more of the European flavor with his Webern and post-serial influences. He knows how to blend vast regions of extended technique with complex melodic playing in ways that make perfect sense. And from listening to NRG, Brotzmann and Vandermark ensembles, Mars Williams really sticks out, as both player and composer. Neither of those guys are solely alto sax, though. But that Zorn motherfucker. At his prime, he was as revolutionary as anyone on the alto saxophone, maybe even Eric Dolphy or Charlie Parker. 'Classic Guide to Strategy' is a whole new standard of saxophonic technique. Sure, he got a lot of tricks from Evan Parker. But he picked up things from every-which-a-way and made a new system of articulation for the instrument's capacities. If you can't handle his high-pitched squeals, get out of the kitchen. That's like saying "I like Sonic Youth, but I wish they'd stop doing all that abstract noise shit." I'm sort of surprised when I see Zorn say in interviews that he's not really a saxophonist. That's just obviously untrue. However, I do believe him when he says he doesn't have the technique he had in the early 80s. That stuff is outta sight. But it's all a matter of perspective -- technique is individual. (Braxton also brilliantly asserted that Captain Beefheart was a bad motherfucker on horn.) If you like hearing somebody cut like mad over speed bop changes, Zorn might not be your best bet. But even in that context, he sounds cooler than most cats. --bob >From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner(a)butler.edu> >To: "'Toby Dodds'" <toby(a)dodds.org>, <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: RE: Zorn as a player? >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:18:35 -0500 > > >> I think Briggan Krauss would have to be considered > >He has one of my favorite sounds of any alto player. He has that big, >dirty sound you almost only find on tenor. I love his work with Sex >Mob, but I've heard not so favorable reviews of his work as a leader. >Any opinions? > >Zach > > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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RE: Zorn as a player?
by john schuller 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

YES! Roscoe Mitchell is a for real motherfucker all the way! I was at that show...it fucking blew my mind...and Roscoe was nothing but nice to his audience, never yelled at us once. Briggan Krauss is a serious bad ass as well... Skerik is innovative. I never seem to get "second hand information" music out of him. But hands down the best shows I have seen recently are by the "Sun City Girls". They didn't yell at the crowd either. >From: "Toby Dodds" <toby(a)dodds.org> >To: <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: RE: Zorn as a player? >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:12:28 -0800 > >I think Briggan Krauss would have to be considered... Though I hate to >throw jabs, I've never been a big fan of the squeel that Zorn tends to drop >in his solos - hurts my ears.. Now Roscoe Mitchell, he's 100% the real >deal. Has anyone mentioned how great the Art Ensemble w/Fred Anderson show >was in Seattle a few weeks back? He and Fred Anderson were unbelievable >together. >Best, >Toby > > >--__--__-- > > >Message: 10 >From: "Downard, Peter" <pdownard(a)tor.fasken.com> >To: 'skip Heller' <velaires(a)earthlink.net>, >"'zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com'" <zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com> >Subject: RE: Zorn as a player? >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:20:12 -0500 > > >Frankly, on the basis of the Masada studio and live sessions and the News >for Lulu trios, I can't think of a better alto player in recent years. Can >anybody else? > >Peter Downard > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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RE: Zorn as a player?
by Toby Dodds 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

I think Briggan Krauss would have to be considered... Though I hate to throw jabs, I've never been a big fan of the squeel that Zorn tends to drop in his solos - hurts my ears.. Now Roscoe Mitchell, he's 100% the real deal. Has anyone mentioned how great the Art Ensemble w/Fred Anderson show was in Seattle a few weeks back? He and Fred Anderson were unbelievable together. Best, Toby --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Downard, Peter" <pdownard(a)tor.fasken.com> To: 'skip Heller' <velaires(a)earthlink.net>, "'zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com'" <zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com> Subject: RE: Zorn as a player? Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:20:12 -0500 Frankly, on the basis of the Masada studio and live sessions and the News for Lulu trios, I can't think of a better alto player in recent years. Can anybody else? Peter Downard

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RE: Zorn as a player?
by Downard, Peter 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Frankly, on the basis of the Masada studio and live sessions and the News for Lulu trios, I can't think of a better alto player in recent years. Can anybody else? Peter Downard

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Re: Zorn as a player?
by Samerivertwice＠aol.com 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

See, now that's how *I* feel, but I've seen more than a few snide remarks around here about his playing. And I always scratch my head and wonder why. His playing with Masada, Naked City, as a sideman and with his own one-off projects consistently blows me away. He is so versatile yet so singularly grounded that I always know it's Zorn on sax. The recent Tonic Live disc's track with Emergency shows Zorn to be downright funky. Chances are Zorn will be remembered for his compositions, but I hope history gives his playing a nod as well. Tom In a message dated 11/19/02 3:08:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, velaires(a)earthlink.net writes: > Personally, I think he's way above average. Just on SPILLANE you can hear > how proficient he is at any tempo, has a great tone (and a beautiful sound > on clarinet, which we can hear him play in the ungodly hard for clarinet > key > of D flat), stays in tune throughout, obviously reads obscenely well. He's > a guy that can play in a bunch of different genres -- and appropriately to > each -- and remain recognizable. It would be follish to dismiss his > flat-out ability to play the saxophone. > > skip h > > > > ______________________________________________________ Discs I'm listening to at work: Down To The Promised Land -- Five Years of Bloodshot Records Finger -- Finger demos David Krakauer -- The Twelve Tribes Rollins Band -- End of Silence Demos U2 -- Best of 1990-2000 & B-sides

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Zorn as a player?
by Samerivertwice＠aol.com 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

In a message dated 11/19/02 2:47:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, mr.dave(a)attbi.com writes: > Skerik is a sax player? Put Zorn and Skerik on a bandstand together, and my > > money is on Zorn all the way. Although I haven't seen Skerik criticize > anyone > in an audience, I have witnessed him several times saying some pretty awful > > things from the bandstand about fellow musicians. I believe he thinks it's > > funny, but I'm not amused. > > Dave > > No one's ever come out and said it -- not that I've seen anyway -- but my feeling is people on this list have mixed feelings about Zorn's proficiency as a sax player. While I'm hardly an expert on technique or innovations, I happen to think Zorn is an exceptionally good player with a unique style. Do others feel the same? Why or why not? I'd love it if someone could articulate Zorn's style in more technical terms so I can better understand and appreciate his playing approach. Thanks, Tom NP: Johnny Cash -- American IV (American)

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Re: No Subject
by john schuller 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

In most cases I would agree with you. But you obviously have not heard "Purple Onion" yet. I was not a fan of Primus and I find this to be a nice departure from the "PRIMUS" sound. An amazing album I think. With a REAL sax player that doesn't yell at his audience!!! John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com >From: Efrén del Valle To: zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: No >Subject Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:16:57 +0100 (CET) > >HI, > > > "Purple Onion" is not a primus album. I know this is nitpicky, but it >just > sounds as if your commenting on the album without hearing it when >you > attribute it to Primus. > > >It's not difficult to mistake a Claypool album for something else coming >from him -that is Primus, Sausage or his solo projects- basically because >he's been doing the same record over and over again. The perfect example of >"repeating oneself". For me, a bad crossover of Zappa/Residents influences. >Perhaps it was worth a listen until "Sailing the Seas of Cheese". Other >than that... > > > >...was Beethoven black, as Anthony Braxton brilliantly asserts? > >I don't see the brilliance in that assertion, personally. > >I also thought Braxton was smarter!! > >Best, > >Efrén del Valle n.p: Lou Reed: "Berlin" > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! >Messenger Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis! Descárgalo ya >desde http://messenger.yahoo.es > >_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription >Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

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Wels report?
by Vincent Kargatis 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Any Wels (Music Unlimited) festival reports coming in? Love to read some - woulda gone if it hadn't been the wife's bday weekend... -- Vincent Kargatis np: David Bowie - "Moonage Daydream" (Ziggy Stardust)

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Re: No Subject
by Steve Smith 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:16:57 +0100 (CET) =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv(a)yahoo.es> wrote: > >...was Beethoven black, as Anthony Braxton > brilliantly asserts? > > I don't see the brilliance in that assertion, > personally. > > I also thought Braxton was smarter!! It's not Braxton's theory. And it was widely promulgated and perpetuated amongst certain factions of the classical music and African studies worlds not so long ago. Recent theory and scholarship continues to suggest that Beethoven was of a decidedly ruddy complexion, but that there is no genuine indication that Beethoven was in fact black... which didn't stop an announcer on L.A.'s KUSC-FM to rather notoriously refer to him once as a "noted Moorish composer." Steve Smith ssmith36(a)sprynet.com NP - Michael Torke, 'An American Abroad' - RSNO/Alsop (Naxos)

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