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RE: [Utah-astronomy] Planetarium
by Dale Hooper 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

This is certainly not meant as an affront to Patrick - but I thought the planetarium began to decline after (I believe it was) an overreaching county official terminated director Dr. Mark Littman (Lippman?). I used to LOVE watching him explain things on the Fireman Frank show. Dr Littman was one of my early heroes. Now all the kids get are sports stars and rappers. -----Original Message----- I always thought the Planetarium could/would benefit more from our association than SLAS would, but due to our love of astronomy and interest in sharing it, that was fine. However, I'm curious. Why has the Hansen/Clark Planetarium shown so little interest in or given so little support of SLAS? At least that's been true for the 16 years or so I've been a member. I know that wasn't always the case, as Chuck has pointed out. To illustrate the point: No effort by the Planetarium folks to accommodate SLAS's meeting needs in the new Clark Planetarium, except an invitation to meet in the star theater if we would pay the typical rental rate. Even when we invited the Planetarium to co-host Ken Croswell's visit and lecture, they wanted us to pay them to do it! I noticed at November's meeting that the Planetarium representatives began by saying something about how they would like to see some cooperation between the two of us. However, they never really discussed it or mentioned the issue again. Kim _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: Geeks
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

After reading most list responses today, I think maybe Rolly could be right after all. Some of you have a knack for making mountains out of molehills, tempests in teapots. He's not even a serious journalist, it's a musings column! It's like getting indignant at being mentioned on a Jay Leno "Headlines" segment. Only someone with serious self-esteem issues would actually feel slighted at something like this. Please tell me you were all joking. I'd like to keep my opinions of all of you up where they belong. If you don't like what you see in the mirror, it's not the mirror's fault. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com

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Re: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Geeks, what geeks
by astrodeb＠charter.net 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

I was riding horses when I got involved in astronomy in '95 and hanging around Rich's barn. Does that make me a cowgirl geek? My point is most of us have other interests besides astronomy. I think if Paul took a closer look at us he would find that most of us are pretty normal people. Debbie > > From: Ann House <annchouse(a)gmail.com> > Date: 2005/01/31 Mon AM 11:20:29 MST > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Geeks, what geeks > > Paul Rolly happens to be my brother-in-law. I have given him plenty of > stories, but not this one. At least I now know what he thinks of me. > > -A > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com >

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Re: Geeks
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

I'm sure Mr. Rolly really meant "Greeks", as in the great thinkers, philosophers, the model for our university fraternity system, inventors of democracy and the scientific method, classical architecture, the people we named lunar craters after... The classic definition of "geek" was a person who committed bizzare acts at a sideshow or carnival, such as biting the head off of a live chicken. I've never seen anyone in the club bite the head off of a live chicken. (Just hearsay rumors...but never witnessed it personally, and it was probably KFC anyway.) The fact that this term is now used to denote people who are intellectually inclined should tell you something about the mindset of the average person, or writer of "musings" type columns. Consider the source. Guy, put that thing away, he's not worth doing the time! ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Geeks, what geeks
by Ann House 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

Paul Rolly happens to be my brother-in-law. I have given him plenty of stories, but not this one. At least I now know what he thinks of me. -A

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Fwd: Historical question
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

I'm on the digest currently, so if someone else has posted similar information, I apologize for the redundancy. This was sent to me privately by a list member, who can come forward if desired, for now I'm posting it anonymously (thanks!): > I've been away from my desk most of the day, but I > just sat down for a few minutes and read your > question and Guy's response. I think Guy is still > wrong. I am also using Sky Map Pro, v. 7, and I find > the following: > > Not knowing where the escapees were located at the > time, I entered Bern, Switzerland for the location > (1 hour ahead of UT) and the date as 14 October, > 1918. Jupiter is in Gemini and just rising above the > "ideal" horizon at 10:30 local time. However, the > Moon, in Aquarius, is still 20 degrees above the > horizon. The program gives the phase as 0.679. So, I > wonder if the Moon had set from their location and > they were able to see from the light of a rising > Jupiter, perhaps closer to 11:30 or midnight local > time? Saturn wouldn't have risen until about 2:00 > local time, but of course Jupiter was much higher by > then. This sounds much better to me, intuitively. Willis does write that the valley was oriented north-south, and the rivers were located at the bottom of gorges, so the eastern and western horizons were probably obstructed. If Saturn didn't rise until 2:00 am, it could not have been the planet in question. Some small towns passed that night were listed as: Dittishausen, Rotenbach, and Loffingen. We have scant information on the weather; perhaps the moon was obscured by clouds if not terrain. Willis states that the sun did shine during that day, apparently for most of the day as he writes of shadows moving while they were hiding in a pine thicket during daylight hours, and luxuriating in it's warmth. Of the night of the escape itself, (the night before the planet notation), he wrote: "A thin layer of clouds over the stars produced a dim, luminous light everywhere, and the way across country we had so carefully memorized on our walks was easy to follow." So it seems that Jupiter is now the best candidate. It would certainly throw more light on the countryside than Saturn. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Historical Puzzle
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

Jim wrote: > Astronomy has added some extra weight to my > backpack. I love to take my 15X70 Galileo binos now. > After lugging those buggers ten miles they are > going to get used. Just imagine back-packing the 25x100mm! Man, you do it right. Next time, when it's warm again, count me in! I still have my one-man pup tent! Time to go backpack shopping...I don't have a fly-rod, but I do have a collapsing bait-casting setup with miniature reel. Jim, you've got me "mind-fishing" at Twin Lakes right now, waiting for darkness with my big binos... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Historical Puzzle/3D images
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

Thanks to all who replied on the Historical Puzzle question, I'm going to keep trying to refine location and time and perhaps establish a local horizon for the time of the sighting, then we'll run it all again. If anyone would like the entire text of Willis' escape, let me know off-list and I'll have it all ready in the next couple of weeks. It's for the WWI air-war list I run. Patrick, you don't need images shot simultaneously, just let some time pass between exposures. The earth's orbital motion as well as lunar orbital motion ensures that your second exposure is from a location thousands of miles from the first. I've done this for a couple of lunar eclipses, but with the moon it's hard to get a lot of stars recorded without over-exposing the lunar surface into just a bright blob. I echo Joe's comments on Hale-Bopp. Many of my shots display a startling 3D effect. And BTW, they are indistinguishable from simultaneous shots taken at different geographical locations. Reverse them left-for-right and it looks like the stars are in front of the comet! You don't need Photoshop. Any imaging program that allows precise re-sizing of images will work just fine. You can rotate them to register by cutting one out with scissors if your program won't let you rotate one digitally. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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Chuck's historical question
by Kim Hyatt 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

Well, I certainly wasn't trying to be secretive. Yes, I'm the "anonymous source" for Chuck's later information. It was late enough last night when I saw Chuck's email that I simply responded to him directly. No offense intended towards anyone, especially not you, Guy. I just got different results. I've found with Sky Map Pro that I have to be very careful when I use a time and/or location other than the default. It's easy for me to forget to click on "OK" when I make a change, so I double- and triple-check, as I did last night. From Bern, Switzerland, I got the following: Information about Moon for 14 Oct 1918 10:30:00 PM (Julian day number 2421881.39583) Local Information Apparent topocentric coordinates for the epoch of date: Right ascension: 20h 49m 51.06s Declination: -13° 58' 11.5" Constellation: Aquarius Altitude: 19° 20' 40" Azimuth: 221° 27' 6" Rise: 14h 40m 36s Transit: 19h 45m 47s Geocentric Information Apparent geocentric coordinates for the epoch of date: Right ascension: 20h 51m 36.823s Declination: -13° 9' 31.01" True distance: 374979.6 Km Horizontal parallax: 3508.59" Physical Information Magnitude: -10.8 Phase: 0.679 Phase angle: 69.0° Elongation: 110.9° Diameter: 1923.51" Light time: 0h 0m 1.3s Information about Jupiter for 14 Oct 1918 10:30:00 PM (Julian day number 2421881.39583) Local Information Apparent topocentric coordinates for the epoch of date: Right ascension: 7h 5m 54.32s Declination: +22° 27' 11.4" Constellation: Gemini Altitude: 1° 39' 36" Azimuth: 57° 39' 58" Rise: 22h 16m 43s Transit: 6h 8m 14s Set: 13h 56m 7s Geocentric Information Apparent geocentric coordinates for the epoch of date: Right ascension: 7h 5m 54.236s Declination: +22° 27' 12.76" True distance: 4.9587437 AU (742 million km) Horizontal parallax: 1.77" Heliocentric Information Ecliptic coordinates for the epoch of date: Ecliptic longitude: 94° 5' 7.0" Ecliptic latitude: -0° 7' 32.4" Radius vector: 5.1513854 AU (771 million km) Physical Information Magnitude: -2.3 Phase: 0.991 Phase angle: 11.1° Elongation: 95.5° Equatorial diameter: 39.70" Polar diameter: 37.13" Light time: 0h 41m 14.4s I just saw Jim's latest post. I, too, wondered if even the light of Jupiter was bright enough to really aid in seeing anything. The Moon would not have set below the ideal horizon until nearly 1:00 AM on the 15th. We've all observed how bright the sky can be if a bright Moon is just below our local horizon in the mountains. Perhaps the moonlight is really what aided the escapees, even though it may have been below their local horizon, and so they attributed the greater visibility to "some planet or other." Thoughts? I would be interested to know if anyone with a different program gets significantly different results. Please check the time (14 Oct, 1918 AD/CE, 22:30 local time, or 21:30 UT) and location (Bern, Switzerland, lat. 46:57:0, long. 7:25:48). I hope my Sky Map Pro is reliable, as it's the only program I've got for such stuff, and I've used it to research other historical questions. Kim

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A Historical Puzzle
by Chuck Hards 31 Jan '05

31 Jan '05

I find myself in need of aid from someone with a planetarium program that can reveal planet locations on the sky, going back to at least 1918. There is a bit of preamble necessary to frame the question, please bear with me. The backstory, taken from "The Lafayette Flying Corps" by James Norman Hall & Charles Bernard Nordhoff, copyright 1920. Quotes are from the book, otherwise it's my commentary: "(Note: Harold Willis, of the Escadrille Lafayette, was shot down in combat behind the German lines on August 18, 1917. After several unsuccessful attempts at escape, he finally succeeded in crossing the German frontier into Switzerland by swimming the Rhine. Four simultaneous attempts were made to break out of the prison at Villengen by four groups of American aviators and Lieutenant Isaacs, of the U.S. Navy. The lights of the camp were short-circuited, whereupon each of the four groups followed prearranged plans for getting outside the camp. Willis was provided with a wooden gun and a prison-tailored uniform somewhat resembling that of the guards. His plan was to rush out of the camp with the German sentinals when the alarm was sounded. He made the cross-country journey to the border with Lieutenant Isaacs.)" Willis and Isaacs found each other in the darkness a little while after the escape. They hid during daylight hours and only traveled by night, to avoid detection. In the narrative, Willis wrote: "Every one who has wandered about much at night knows how difficult it is to judge heights, depths, and angles of slopes by starlight." Obviously there was not moon, I'm guessing that the escape was planned during moonless times intentionally. They did not use their tiny pocket flashlight while moving, lest it betray their position to any pursuit. Willis wrote that at times they checked their course against the north star, so obviously he knew the constellations at least in a rudimentary fashion. He goes on, writing about their second night: "The bridge spanned another roaring stream - quite as impossible to wade as the one of the previous night. Some planet or other which had just arisen gave us light enough to see that the place was deserted, so we slipped over." My question is, what planet could he be referring to? His escape is recorded as being on October 13, 1918, the planet reference would be the night of October 14th. He makes another reference that places the planet sighting before midnight, could have been as early as 10:30. He and Isaacs were at the time traversing the Black Forest, with mountainous horizons, so the "planet" could have been as high as 20 or even 30-degrees before it "rose", when reading the description of the bridge and stream in a canyon-bottom, but this is not certain. Checking my planisphere, there is a possibility that Willis confused Sirius with a planet, but I would think that he would know the Dog Star; too, it is a bit below the ecliptic and seems like it may have been too low in altitude at the time. Possible candidates are Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars near opposition. If none were in the area then it would have to have been Sirius. I'm also curious as to the phase of the moon at that time. Anybody care to set the "WayBack" machine for October 14, 1918, and see what shakes out? Thanks in advance, please post your results! C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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