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RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Why the hostility?
by Seth Jarvis 04 Feb '05

04 Feb '05

I'll offer this response once in this forum, and then I recommend that any additional comments anyone would care to exchange should probably go off-list through private emails to avoid cluttering up what should be a forum for astronomy-related messages. Quoting Chuck Hards: "Many of us are old enough to remember when Hansen opened it's doors, and that it was a much more freindly and open environment than Clark, or the final phases of Hansen." How so? Customer service drives this place. If we're being less friendly now than in years gone by (I was on the Hansen Planetarium staff under both Mark Littmann and Von Del Chamberlain), I'd like to know about it so I can correct the problem. "I certainly felt that any tax dollars of mine going into the old institution were much better spent." I don't see how you can make that claim. We have four times the public attendance, more and better exhibits, and three times the number of school kids seeing educational programs than we had at Hansen and nobody's taxes have gone up to pay for it. "Any county rules that on the surface seem to forbid an association between an astronomical society and the planetarium can be undone, they are just words on paper and not physical barriers." Words on paper are the basis of our government. The "Short Rule" was a 1999 decision by the Utah Supreme Court. Public employees may not give public assets (use of this building is considered a public asset) to private persons or organizations without fair market compensation and approval by elected representatives. SLAS is not being unfairly discriminated against. The rules apply to _all_ private groups wishing to use the planetarium. It's your tax dollars that are protected by this policy. "For the planetarium to now shrug it's shoulders, point to questionable polices and rental fees, and grin sheepishly seems like a cop-out to many of us." I'm never sheepish, and I'm certainly not grinning. You and others have criticized the planetarium for being unfair to SLAS, and I'm explaining to you that the county policy, and the Utah laws on which it is based, is far from "questionable." It is strict and unambiguous. "Remember that we are not "tin-foil hat" types standing around looking at the night sky hoping for UFOs to land." Who ever said you were? The accomplishments of amateur astronomers are well known and respected by the planetarium staff. "It's pretty much up to you, sir, to change the environment at this point." I hope I've made it clear that it is most certainly _not_ up to me. If SLAS doesn't want to associate with the planetarium, that's SLAS's decision to make. The Clark Planetarium has at no time, nor ever will, act in any arbitrary manner to diminish our interest in cooperating with SLAS to promote astronomy education in our community. Best regards, Seth Jarvis, Director Clark Planetarium

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Olive Branches
by Seth Jarvis 04 Feb '05

04 Feb '05

>One of the groups has to be the bigger person and go >first with a small step or gesture. All Clark can do >is say no. Thank you for that. Yes, we'd love an opportunity to share information about the planetarium with visitors to SPOC. However, if your event for the Big Scope (which is impressive!)is tonight, that's not enough notice for us to pull together a table, literature and a volunteer to man it. When would be the next opportunity? We'd also like to give information about SLAS and other area astronomy clubs to everyone who buys a telescope from us. Last year we sold close to 200 telescopes, mostly 6, 8 & 10" Dobsonians, to first-time telescope owners. We also host "try before you buy" programs here at the planetarium on clear weekend evenings for telescope sales, but by doing it from downtown we are obviously limited in what we can show people. Nonetheless, even from downtown a view of the Moon or Saturn from a decent telescope is sufficiently impressive to seal a person's interest in owning a telescope. We are always eager to help people make smart telescope-buying choices. BTW, we DO have star parties - just not as regularly as SLAS does. Our Mars-Party last September (the August date was clouded-out) in West Jordan drew over a thousand people. We had a dozen telescopes, each with long lines of waiting viewers. Our AstroVan outreach program hosts star parties at schools frequently. So... I'd like to propose that we provide information about local astronomy clubs to our telescope customers. I'm hearing a SLAS member express interest in having us distribute information about the planetarium at SLAS star parties. We also have staff members (myself included) who own some fairly nice telescopes and we'd love a chance to set them up and participate in the star party. It may be that this is the extent of our organizations' connection for a while, but it seems to me to be a logical and straightforward way for us to be mutually supportive towards our common goal of encouraging public appreciation for astronomy. If an officer of SLAS would like to consider this and get back to me about it, I'd appreciate it. Best Regards, Seth Jarvis

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Re: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Tonights star party...
by astrodeb＠charter.net 04 Feb '05

04 Feb '05

I'd like to hook up my digital camera to the 32" scope. Think of the images that we could produce. Way to go guys! I'm going to have to drive north and take a peek sometime. Debbie > > From: diveboss(a)xmission.com > Date: 2005/02/04 Fri AM 10:22:51 MST > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Tonights star party... > > You know, with a scope of this quality, this close to home, I may have to > get that eye surgery i've been putting off... I lost my keen eyesight as a > youth doing things I was warned not to do lest I go blind, and now I am > paying the price. ;) > > I too meant to thank everyone as well for their contibutions including > Chuck. If it weren't for his contribution, we might have had to use a > ladies compact mirror to bend the light through the fixed eyepiece. And > that fixed eyepiece design is just one more superb aspect of this scope. > Good idea! > > Guy > > > > > Quoting Siegfried Jachmann <ziggy943(a)xmission.com>: > > > This is a milestone. > > > > Congrats to all that have participated and contributed. We have raised > > the > > bar. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com >

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Why the hostility?
by Canopus56 04 Feb '05

04 Feb '05

Congrats on the big scope. Siegfried replied: > We each have our own interests. In order for a > "working relationship" to work there needs to be a > mutually beneficial situation. We already have > a full plate of public service. At this time I see > no mutual benefit. Maybe any grand opening of Big Scope would present an opportunity to extend a hand out to Clark by asking that they send a representative and display table. One of the groups has to be the bigger person and go first with a small step or gesture. All Clark can do is say no. >> (Canopus56 wrote) >> I understood from the November meeting that SLAS had >> some kind of a liason or representative on the Clark >> board. Siegfried replied: > Not to my knowledge. Only one SLAS member that I am > aware of is on the Clark advisory board but not as a > representative of SLAS. Thanks, Siegfried. Would you post or send me, via private email, the contact info for that person? Regards, Canopus56 (Kurt Fisher, SLAS member) P.S. - Any ideas or proposals for the what the dedicated name of Big Scope will be? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com

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Re: Tonights star party
by Chuck Hards 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

Guy wrote: > Siegfried > and Chuck hogged the eyepiece at every chance. Moi? Hogged? At least I wasn't in a bikini, drinking beer. (That was last week.) Thank you, Siegfried, Bruce, and all others who contributed at all levels. It was most definitely worth it. What a great facility, what a great telescope! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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Why the hostility?
by Seth Jarvis 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

Hey! What's going on? What is it that we're supposed to have done that warrants the kind of hostility I'm reading about the planetarium? I saw the Rolly report in yesterday's paper, too. Rolly got his facts wrong. We had to discontinue giving SLAS free access to the planetarium long before we moved to Gateway. Part of the fallout of the Doug Short vs. Salt Lake County controversy in the late 90's was a decision by the Utah Supreme Court that is known as the "Short Rule." It forbids county agencies (such as the planetarium) from giving away goods or services to private groups (such as SLAS). We've had to discontinue allowing SLAS to use the planetarium for free in exactly the same way we've turned down other private groups who make similar requests. The only meeting space in the Clark Planetarium that can accommodate the membership of SLAS at its meetings is the Star Theater. Our one small classroom can only accommodate about 30 people comfortably. SLAS is welcome to meet in either space, but they'll have to pay the same rental rates for those spaces as anyone else. If I were SLAS, I'd object to paying those rental rates, too, but that doesn't mean the planetarium is being deliberately mean to SLAS. Yes, we are "more commercially oriented" now as the Clark Planetarium than we were as Hansen Planetarium, but that's because the only way our community gets to have a planetarium at all is for us to be entrepreneurial. Ask the County Council about their expectations for a financially self-sufficient planetarium if you doubt me. I'd love to see what areas of cooperation can be achieved with SLAS. We just have to work within the laws and county policies that govern the use of our facility. SLAS has goals and strategies for achieving it's goals that are, in general, the same as those of the planetarium. We both exist to encourage public awareness of the value of astronomy. I'd be more than happy to see how our respective organizations can be of service to each other. Seth Jarvis, Director Clark Planetarium sjarvis(a)slco.org

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Why the hostility?
by Canopus56 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

Bob Grant wrote: > That begs the question of how does the Salt Lake > County Library evade that rule? They make their > rooms and auditoriums available to private parties > at no cost. The following are my personal, individual comments and do not reflect any comments or positions of SLAS. I feel the larger core issue is what the Clark director, Clark's board or trustee's and/or citizens's advisory board, view as the proper roll of local astronomy clubs in the facility. My impression is that Clark is a "scopeless" planetarium. SLAS (Patrick and Seigfried and others) has done an amazing job of building a scope facility with scopes, now up to 30" in diameter, at no cost to the taxpayers. Many SLAS members are dedicated amateurs who own advanced scopes. There is a natural fit between the resources of Clark and the SLAS, since the Clark is "scopeless" and SLAS has a cadre of informed amateurs with scopes. That natural fit of resources can further Clark's primary mission of public education, which is also a secondary objective, to my understanding of SLAS. For example, during the recent Mars opposition, the general public flocked to SPOC, not the planetarium. Government agencies (e.g. Natural History Museum, Red Butte Gardens, etc.) rarely turn away a willing and able cadre of experienced volunteers. It aids them in achieving their core mission without using taxpayer dollars. The key issue of this thread is not the narrower question of whether SLAS can meet at the planetarium. To my understanding, SLAS does not want to meet there because of the fee parking situation. The narrow meeting issue raised in the Tribune entertainment column is only symptomatic of the larger question. Clark is also a relatively young facility, that no doubt is still trying to crystalize organizational focus during the start-up phase of a new public service. Their delay in having an integrated program with recognized community groups is understandable. Both groups have changed in the last couple of years. Maybe it is time to visit the question of whether a more formal and coordinated working relationship is now in order. Again, I would like to stress that this email should not be taken as overly harsh criticism of Clark. Some intentions do not translate well through the imperfect media of email. Overall, everyone in the community, and myself personally, are proud of the facility. It's a good movie theater and a good movie productionn company that cranks out, now internationally recognized, computer generated graphics productions. I understood from the November meeting that SLAS had some kind of a liason or representative on the Clark board. If that is the case, perhaps a Clark report could be added to the agenda at the next meeting. Clark director Seth hopefully will give some indication here of what this division of the Salt Lake County Parks and Recreation Department's policies are with respect to working with local recognized community groups. That is what I am interested in having an answer to, as well as finding out who runs Clark, that is who is on the board(s). Respectfully, Canopus56 Salt Lake City, Utah __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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Today's NASA Briefing
by Patrick Wiggins 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

Two things of note out of today's briefing. 1) The briefer noted they have received 132 reports of found debris in CA, 130 in AZ and 9 in NM but that none had been confirmed. He made no mention of Utah. 2) The picture mentioned in the Aviation Week article was shown. Some of the media has been playing it up as being "hi resolution". Don't know that I'd call it hi-res but it does show the shape of the orbiter and maybe there's "something" with the left wing but the image is so pixcelated it's hard to say for sure. No doubt the picture will be all over the TV tonight.

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One last explanation, then an exit
by Chuck Hards 02 Feb '05

02 Feb '05

My friends: Please bear with me. This starts hard but ends soft. 1. I didn't write the Tribune article, and mentioned my opinion only. I hardly have to defend my memories and preferences of a bygone time, to anyone! I am not a representative of SLAS, or any other astro club, and can not, and will not, debate the issue on their behalf. For that reason I also cannot accept personal criticism due to past relationships between the parties and any published press articles. I do feel that Director Jarvis' latest reply seemed more defensive and accusatory than that expected from someone desiring to build concensus. I deeply regret his assumption that I am in a position to negotiate or otherwise get involved other than expressing a personal opinion, as many others have done, right here in this very forum. Some have agreed with me, on many issues, but are they ever challenged or attacked? Not very often. I'm not going to be the goat anymore. 2. Daniel, I have had a sick wife, my own health problems, and a work schedule that isn't a tidy 9-to-5, for the past 6 years and have personal priorities other than star-parties of late. I might ask you, where were you in 1972, 75, 78? I have done much public service in astronomy in this area, was a founding member of the first Hansen-planetarium-era club in this community. (and did quite a bit of hard work on the past, and current SPOC facility, too). If most of the recent members were not here when I was most active, that's not my fault either, and I again owe no apologies. I gave an explanation, but even that is not required. I've given far more to Utah astronomy than most club members over the years. There are many who have given more, to be sure, but my conscience is clear. I had hoped to bring some of the better club aspects from the past, to the present; I see now that is quite impossible. 3. I'm starting class next week and my posts will just about end completely; I am not unsubscribing but many digests will get deleted unread due to lack of time for many months. I do want to retain the resource however, if Cynthia will permit me to stay subscribed. I'm sure there will be much rejoicing. I will not question the status quo anymore. I belong to the past, the present is yours. This past winter I had an incredible experience that boosted me through my "mid-life crisis" and opened my eyes to many new things. I will no longer fight unimportant fights, my goals have changed dramatically, my health is excellent again, and for the first time in a long time, I am happy! Some of you have shared in those experiences, off list and personally with me. I thank you wholeheartedly and will see you again, and often, you know who you are. But part of the change for me means walking away from many "fights", the list lately has..."shifted columns on my spreadsheet of life", shall we say. Good bye, my friends and acquaintances. Those who wish are always welcome to contact me. My road leads elsewhere for now. Onward and upward! C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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Why the hostility?
by Canopus56 02 Feb '05

02 Feb '05

> What is it that we're supposed to have done that > warrants the kind of hostility I'm reading about > the planetarium? I do not speak for SLAS, but will pass on my personal comments and experiences. If there are some points I making out of ignorance, Seth, please correct and educate me. 1) Clark is no longer a planetarium - it is a movie theater. As you have mentioned, that is by design in order to make the facility more financially self-supporting. The facility does not seem to engage the types of activities normally associated with public astronomy education - outside of elementary school slide shows and public movies. To my knowledge, it has no significant telescopes. Sales of movie tickets to IMAX NASCAR movies do not count as public astronomy education. The help at the sales desk are, for the most part, movie ushers, and have no knowledge or experience regarding astronomy or telescopes. There is one young man who works on Saturdays or Sundays who is quite knowledgable. Otherwise my experiences in buying basic telescope parts at the sales counter are: a) sales clerk did not know what a "red-dot" finder is. b) sales clerk did not know what the focal length of a telescope or eyepiece was. c) sales clerk did not know what a white-light solar filter was. d) sales clerk, when asked about scopes for sale in the lobbying, stated "I don't really know anything about those." e) all questions beyond "my I take your credit card number" are referred by telephone to your marketing director, who gives marketing-type answers and who seems uneducated in telescopes or astronomy in general. There is no staff presence on the general public floor that appears to have any knowledge of amateur astronomy. How can Clark fulfill its mission if people that the public has the most contact with are unknowledgable about telescopes or the night sky? 2) Clark does not appear to involve the local astronomy community in its operations and oversight. One SLAS member at a recent meeting commented that they went to the planetarium to volunteer. They had a college-level science education and are an intermediate or expert-level observer. The theatre's answer, as related to me by that member, was that they were "unsuitable" for the mission of the planetarium. Such a response is consistent, if the mission of the planetarium is simply be a movie theater and not a planetarium. As mentioned in this newsgroup, when the planetarium surplused one of its significant scopes, SLAS was not informed or allowed to bid. 3) What do you, as the Clark director, Clark's board or trustee's and/or citizens's advisory board, view as the proper roll of local astronomy clubs in the facility? Is there any official policy statement, board minutes or planning documents along these lines? What would be Clark's preferences for participation by local astronomy clubs, if any? 4) There are some areas of planetarium operations that I would appreciate being educated on in follow-up to your facility's presentation at the Nov. 2004 SLAS meeting. I understand that you have a county appointed of trustees and/or an advisory board. a) Who are the trustees and/or advisory board members? b) What are their backgrounds and education, particularly in science or astronomy? c) Are any of the SLAS members on the board(s)? d) How can I obtain a copy of your last annual report? e) How can I, or another SLAS member, place their name in line to be appointed to the board(s), when current members' terms expire? Seth, please do not take the above as overly harsh criticism. Some expression does not translate well through the media of email. Overall, everyone in the community, and myself personally, are proud of the facility. Again, my comments are made as an individual, and are not made on the behalf of and do not relfect the views of SLAS. Please feel free to contact via this group email setting or by direct email. Since, many SLAS members follow this newsgroup, a public response here would be appreciated. Kurt A. Fisher Salt Lake City, Utah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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