January 2009 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome
by Canopus56 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Jim Gibson wrote: > I felt somewhat like you expressed about central peaks. When I read the comment > about central peaks requiring a certain force I looked around on the moon > and was surprised how many small creators didn’t have central peaks. > There are also a lot of big creators with out central peaks either. > So, I am still not satisfied that I know enough. (In reply to Jim and other miscellaneous topics in this thread:) There is pattern to the size and morphology of lunar craters - and to craters on all the other rocky planets. It begins with small bowl shaped craters, then central peaks form, then the central peaks disappear and a single outer ring of peaks develops. Finally, with big basins like Mare Orientale, multiple ring peaks form at distances from the center of the impact at a ratio of 1 to the square root of 2. This is a link to a wikispace page that I put together a few months ago that shows on one side, an animated main lunar crater sequence. On the other is high-motion photography of a water droplet from a YouTube source. http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/MainLunarSequence The morphology sequence of lunar crater formation is listed in the text paragraph beneath the two animations. Formation of a crater central peak is gravity dependent. The Moon has one-sixth the gravity field of the Earth. On the Moon, central peaks begin to be expressed when a crater reaches about 17 to 20 km in diameter. The Earth has a higher gravity field, so central peaks begin to become expressed at around 6km. What you see at Upheaval is the eroded remanents of an about 8km dia crater that formed 170 million years ago. The original crater was one or two kilometers deep. Most of what remains is the bottom 1/5 of the impact crater. It is not a clear matter. You may be seeing either (a) the floor of the original crater or (b) the petrified impact shock waves in the rock just beneath the floor of the original crater. Craters are scaled dependent on the gravity field of the planet they form on. That just makes Upheaval more cool. It's like looking at a dissection of what is at or underneath all those 17-25km craters that you have looked at on the Moon. See Fig. 4 in Huntoon (2000), Utah Geo. Assoc. Pub. 28:619-628 for a diagram showing what the original crater looked like. url: http://www.utahgeology.org/pub28_pdf_files/UpheavalDome.pdf. See Pike 1979 re: gravity dependent of effects on crater morphology that is seen on all solar system planets from Mercury, Earth, the Moon and Mars. Pike, R.J. 1979. Simple to complex craters: transition on the Moon. LPI Sci. Conf. VII:700-702. url: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976LPI.....7..700P Here's picture of a 4km impact basin at the village of Steinheim, Germany. It's only a few million years old and is still filled in. It's probably similar to what Upheaval looked like 170 million years ago. http://www.astro.hr/vsa97/eng/html/ries_crater.html Another possible "what it originally looked like 170 million years ago" analogy is the 2.5 km Roter Kamm Crater in Nambia. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/slidesets/craters/slide_14.html Shoemaker didn't find multiplanar PDFs at Upheaval. In the 1980s he found "shatter cones" a.k.a shock cones, a feature that can created by either volcanic explosions or meteorites, although shatter cones are more typically associated with meteor impact sites. There are two pictures of fully formed shatter cones from a Canadian meteor impact site at this url: Shatter cones from Carswell Sudbury impact structures in Canada Right Carswell impact structure, Canada. url: http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/essay.html#ident A picture of the specific shatter cone that Shoemaker found - actually the broken bottom half of a shatter cone - can be seen as Fig. 18 in Kriens, Shoemaker and Herkenhoff (1999). (You'll have to go to university library with access rights to the journal to access it.) Kriens, Shoemaker and Herkenhoff. 1999. Geology of the Upheaval Dome impact structure, southeast Utah J. of Geophys. Res. 104:(18)18867-18887 url: http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/1999/1998JE000587.shtml There's a nice scientific historical arc to the Upheaval story. Shoemaker first became famous as the co-author of a paper in the late 50s or early 60s that examined the technique for confirming impact craters by their shock wave characteristics. One of the studies sites in his early paper was the possible binary asteriod impact at Nördlingen Ries (24km) and Steinheim (4km), in Bavaria, Germany. As a result of Shoemaker's work, the German's created an institute that stores core samples taken from all around the Nördlingen Ries area. Kenkmann, who did find the multiplanar PDF crystals at Upheaval, is a Humboldt Univ. of Berlin mineralology professor who also happens to be a chair at - I think I translated this nearly right - the Center for Meteor Impact Studies at Nördlingen - a joint project of the Humboldt Univ. of Berlin and the City of Nordlingen. ZERIN (Zentrum für Rieskrater- und Impaktforschung Nördlingen) http://www.museum.hu-berlin.de/min/zerin/zerin.html Shoemaker characterizes Nordlingen Ries and Steinheim as a meteor impact sites. German boy grows up to become a minerology professer. Forty years later he flys back to Utah to return the favor. Or at least that's how I read the sequence of events. -:) Clear Skies - Kurt

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] The Meteor
by Canopus56 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Thanks, Joe. - Kurt

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San Rafael Swell
by rcfry＠comcast.net 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Jim, Said, I was just down at Café Rio and one of the workers had to break me out of my trance. I was watching the Salt Domes forming on the frying tortillas. I could see the Mexican crustal plate moved eastward pushing hard on the Gringo plate. Moving inward to the interior of the swell I could see the incline get progressively closer to the guacamole section. Then there was lettuce an salsa in the side section. Man that was awesome. Jim, You need to watch for the post-tectonic eruptive phase. This is usually marked by internal rumbling and subtile harmonic tremors, followed by intense anxiety. The effects can usually be put in check with an application of Peptobismol. Rodger

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology
by zaurak＠digis.net 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Chuck, I guess God did not understand that. Or that the Sun was a star, the Bible seems to reflect human understanding of the time. Erik --- chuck.hards(a)gmail.com wrote: From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:19:03 -0700 Well, except near New Moon, and during eclipses... The rest of the time, that lesser light is a pain the @$$! On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Jim Gibson <jimgibson00(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Erik, > I like that quote too. When I first learned that the moon goes north when > the sun goes south and thus no one is completely left in the dark, I thought > of that quote. > > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome
by zaurak＠digis.net 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Kim, as I recall you are right about Shoemaker being the first. --- kimharch(a)cut.net wrote: From: "Kim" <kimharch(a)cut.net> To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:15:10 -0700 I've missed some of this thread, and my memory may be faulty, but I thought that microscopic shocked quartz was first documented at Upheaval Dome by Gene Shoemaker, perhaps 20 years or so ago. I don't recall now where I learned that. Anyone else? Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of zaurak(a)digis.net Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:05 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome Canyonlands certainly has no shortage of unique features not seen anywhere else. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1921 - Release Date: 1/28/2009 6:37 AM _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Moon occults Pleaides 2-3-2008 beg 6pm MST
by Canopus56 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

As the Sun sets on February 3 around 6pm, the 1st quarter Moon just begin occulting the Pleadies with several bright star near grazes. The best visual time begins just before 6pm when the Moon will start occulting mag 4.3 Taygeta. By 6:23pm, Tau 19 and 22 will be occulted. The altitude is good at +70 degs. Around 7:15pm, the occulted bright Pleaidean stars will start egressing from behind the Moon with the Moon still at a good high altitude. The event ends a few minutes before 8pm. - Kurt

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology
by zaurak＠digis.net 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

From the Book of Genesis: 16: God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. The two great lights the moon and the sun? Erik --- jimgibson00(a)yahoo.com wrote: From: Jim Gibson <jimgibson00(a)yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:11:19 -0800 (PST) Don, Interesting subject (to me anyway). Even though you quoted from what many consider to be a religious source I don’t think those particular passages were religious in themselves. You got me thinking though; I wonder how much cosmology there is in the Koran or other eastern religious writings because cosmology seems to have been a popular topic among many early religious writers and the people in general. I was in Seagull Book and Tape one day and found and English translation of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch; a book once thought to be included in the Old Testament. In Chapter 8:5 it tells us that the angle “Barkayal taught the observers of the stars” Now listen to this as we peer into some ancient's log book as he records his observations: 14:9 Behold, in that vision clouds and a mist invited me; agitated stars and flashes of lightning impelled and pressed me forwards, while winds in the vision assisted my flight, accelerating my progress. 17: 3 3. And I saw the places of the luminaries and the treasuries of the stars 18:4 4. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and all the stars to their setting. 33:33.And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, 79:1. And now, my son, I have shown thee everything, and the law of all the stars of the heaven is completed. 79:2. And he showed me all the laws of these for every day, and for every season of bearing rule, and for every year, and for its going forth, and for the order prescribed to it every month and every week: 79:3. And the waning of the moon which takes place in the sixth portal: for in this sixth portal her light is accomplished, and after that there is the beginning of the waning: 79:4. (And the waning) which takes place in the first portal in its season, till one hundred and seventy-seven days are accomplished: reckoned according to weeks, twenty-five (weeks) and two days. 79:5. She falls behind the sun and the order of the stars exactly five days in the course of one period, and when this place which thou seest has been traversed. 79:6. Such is the picture and sketch of every luminary which Uriel ... showed unto me. Imagine the clear skies and no light pollution then. Jim --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Don J. Colton <djcolton(a)piol.com> wrote: From: Don J. Colton <djcolton(a)piol.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 7:01 PM Whether your religious or not it interesting to note the following two verses - they sound like a meteorite. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev. 8:8 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Rev. 8:10 -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jim Gibson Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:50 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome Rich wrote: It's nothing that those on this board haven't thought about but, the chances of a cataclysmic collision occurring in our lifetime is a reality. It is a scary reality! I wonder, is the monitoring of near earth objects as comprehensive as it needs to be? Do we have automated monitors or are we depending on human observation? Patrick will probably give the definitive answer on this but, he is still asleep I think. Patrick led me to the Yahoo Minor Planetary and something or other Yahoo group. Those boys seem to feel things are pretty well under control. Quoting Alain Maury he states: “Apart from the very very very unlikely long period comet arriving from the Oort cloud and falling just on us, there are no more objects able to "end life as we know it" anywhere in the solar system which has not been detected. We are at the 70%, 80% level on the 1km diameter asteroids (or better phrased magnitude 18 and brighter asteroids), and a "global killer" is more like a 10km asteroid, and we all know them and none is anywhere near an impacting orbit.” He goes on to say: “Very quickly (let's say another 5 years of hard work), the only worry left will be in the 200m range, i.e. "state" destroyers, not "continent destroyers". So if these guys know what they are talking about then your statement “, the chances of a cataclysmic collision occurring in our lifetime” still may be true but should not be to the point of “scary” I think. For what it’s worth Jim Gibson --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Ilove2getSpam(a)gmail.com <ilove2getspam(a)gmail.com> wrote: From: Ilove2getSpam(a)gmail.com <ilove2getspam(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 10:28 AM It's nothing that those on this board haven't thought about but, the chances of a cataclysmic collision occurring in our lifetime is a reality. It is a scary reality! I wonder, is the monitoring of near earth objects as comprehensive as it needs to be? Do we have automated monitors or are we depending on human observation? Just think, this picture was most likely the result of a deflection not an impact... [image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Tunguska.png] *Tunguska Event - June 30, 1908* *June 30, 2008:* The year is 1908, and it's just after seven in the morning. A man is sitting on the front porch of a trading post at Vanavara in Siberia. Little does he know, in a few moments, he will be hurled from his chair and the heat will be so intense he will feel as though his shirt is on fire. That's how the Tunguska event felt *40 miles* from ground zero. Today, June 30, 2008, is the 100th anniversary of that ferocious impact near the Podkamennaya Tunguska River in remote Siberia--and after 100 years, scientists are still talking about it. -Rich On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:13 PM, <zaurak(a)digis.net> wrote: > Has the park service accepted the impact crater explanation? Do they still > talk about the "salt" theory? Anyway lets hope future impact craters happen > far from where we live. > > --- ilove2getspam(a)gmail.com wrote: > > From: "Ilove2getSpam(a)gmail.com" <ilove2getspam(a)gmail.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Upheaval Dome > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:30:01 -0500 > > Even still, the hypothesis was controversial. I'm still not sure if the > controversy has been truly eliminated. I'll leave that to the educated > folks > on this list to determine! > > -Rich > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Not to take away anything from Kurt's work, but the Observer's Handbook > has > > for years listed the most significant impact craters in North America and > > Upheaval Dome has been on there for a while. A table lists latitude, > > longitude, approximate age, surface expression, and visible geologic > > features. A simplified map shows approximate location. The governor and > > general public can be excused, but I'm surprised that it doesn't seem to > be > > more common knowledge among those in the hobby. > > > > >From comments I've read on the list lately, I get the impression that > few > > amateurs take advantage of the Observer's Handbook every year. > > > > Patrick, how many orders did you take for the 2009 edition? Have you > > noticed a downward trend over the years? > > _______________________________________________ > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com > > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology
by zaurak＠digis.net 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Jay, Definitely a lot of human history before the beginning of Christianity. I like the carton with a scientist at a blackboard with a bunch of formulas on a chalk board with it ending "then a miracle happens". Erik --- jayleads(a)gmail.com wrote: From: Jay Eads <jayleads(a)gmail.com> To: "Utah-Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:56:10 -0700 On a similar note I find it interesting how the flood myths or stories from Judean, Mesopotamian, African and Indian cultures led to discovering chevrons in Madagascar and Australia, which allowed them to triangulate the Burckle Crater off of Madagascar. If memory serves right they think this impact was around 5000 B.C., is around 18 miles in diameter and would explain the flood myths and destruction of so many lives at that time. On 2009-01-28 20:09, stormcrow60 wrote: > Very intersting reading. I will look into picking up that translated > book of Enoch. It sounds strangely like an ancounter with aliens... > such as that you would see recounted on some UFO programs. Not that I > believe in alien abduction stories... but the truth is out there. > Maybe the book of Enoch has all the answers... to all the questions > humanity has asked. Uh... no... I think not. But interesting just the > same. > > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology
by Jay Eads 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

On a similar note I find it interesting how the flood myths or stories from Judean, Mesopotamian, African and Indian cultures led to discovering chevrons in Madagascar and Australia, which allowed them to triangulate the Burckle Crater off of Madagascar. If memory serves right they think this impact was around 5000 B.C., is around 18 miles in diameter and would explain the flood myths and destruction of so many lives at that time. On 2009-01-28 20:09, stormcrow60 wrote: > Very intersting reading. I will look into picking up that translated > book of Enoch. It sounds strangely like an ancounter with aliens... > such as that you would see recounted on some UFO programs. Not that I > believe in alien abduction stories... but the truth is out there. > Maybe the book of Enoch has all the answers... to all the questions > humanity has asked. Uh... no... I think not. But interesting just the > same. > > > Jon > > >

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] More on Cosmology
by stormcrow60＠xmission.com 28 Jan '09

28 Jan '09

Very intersting reading. I will look into picking up that translated book of Enoch. It sounds strangely like an ancounter with aliens... such as that you would see recounted on some UFO programs. Not that I believe in alien abduction stories... but the truth is out there. Maybe the book of Enoch has all the answers... to all the questions humanity has asked. Uh... no... I think not. But interesting just the same. Jon

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