--- "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote:

Sorry to hear about your uncle, Eugene, and thank you for your service to us all.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

Tod Roger that Tod, and good wishes to all, Eugene

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'twas the night before Christmas when I read with great glee Tod's wonderful winter tale of the vane building three When all of the sudden a memory I had of the ultimate self steering created by Dad Through years of great patience with testing and care he created a steering that worked pretty fair Season after season he perfected his creation he even took naps as it did the navigation Through low and high tide on all points of sail through reefs rocks and shoals it never did fail You may now be wondering what system could this be 'twas the great love of sailing my dad shared with me Now I can hardly wait until March Eleven when my wife and I receive our first bundle from Heaven Through years of great patience through good times and bad I'll create a self steering like the one made by dad Merry Christmas! Bob Campbell Montgomery 17 #615 "Alina" Lodi, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: M_Boats: On Donner, On Blitzen 'twas the night before Christmas and all through the list not a poster was posting not that anyone missed For Howard was out in his shop sawing wood and it's assumed Doug Kelch was doing the same But Tod was still drawing; hadn't lifted a plane. All three were devising and scheming a vane. At least two were consulting with Mr. Murray himself that maker of windvanes with designs on the shelf. One was planning on keeping it simple vane only he sought, no oar making ripple The second was aiming for middling ground a tab on the rudder was perfectly sound But the last one's candle was burning dim giving Rube Goldberg a fight oh so grim with gears and levers and bearings and such It all was becoming a little too much. Tod _______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

I like it, HT!

Hey, Todd ... nice pictures! I like your crew!! :) Conbert and Todd: I've been following the thread on locker lid hasps. Mine are held closed by lanyards and jam cleats from within the cabin area ... not the most convenient in a blow. My question is: on the lid, where you put the unhinged part of the hasp, do you have enough clearance on the inside edge of the lid for a nut, or does it scrape on the rim of the locker? I could probably go out and look at my boat, but it's blowing a gale out there :( -Peter- =============================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.312 / Virus Database: 173 - Release Date: 12/31/01

Have they chosen an area yet? I would love to see them. Where are you picking up the info? I almost started bidding on the M17 on Ebay but I escaped the 2 ft itus so far. Doug --- "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote:

There are 8 BCC's on the Chesapeake and they are talking about a rendezvous in early June.....We may meet up!

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David, I'd be interested, but only have time for one such trip per year. The CBR-02 has to come first. I really need to retire so I can go on all the trips! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of David Rossi Sent: February 05, 2002 2:01 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Rendezvous in NC? Anyone interested in an Outer Banks (NC) rendezvous this year? The sailing is wonderful and Cape Lookout is beautiful. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Tod, I have the Tiller Tender you mentioned. It is beautifully crafted of stainless and bronze and works on an offset cam to lock the line. The website is www.voyagerwindvanes.com. The part is not cheap, but I used one on my ComPac 19 for nearly 10 of her 11 years and recently acquired one to install on my ComPac SunCat. Russ Browne P.J. Puddlejumper SunCat #16 Sailing the prairie lakes in Nebraska --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

Tod, there is no info on the website relating to the Tiller Tender, but they will respond quickly to an e-mail inquiry. The unit runs about $35US, postage paid. I like your idea about using a lower hatchboard with holders for radio,gps, maybe binocs, etc., but wonder if you couldn't do it with the lower of 2 boards, rather than creating 3. If you positioned the holders far enough from the lower edge, you could reverse the hatchboard when not sailing. Of course, the bevel on the lower edge of the top board and the upper edge of the bottom board would have to be more like a "V" shape than a simple 45-degree bevel to shed water. Russ Browne P.J. Puddlejumper SunCat #16 Sailing the prairie lakes in Nebraska --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

Thanks for sticking with me, Tod: Sure don't mean to be deliberately obtuse! I knew that what I was visualizing could not be correct, and having seen several different sheet-to-tiller setups, and heard several testimonies now (thanks largely to you) I have faith that the thing works. It does seem counter-intuitive to me, still. But I can't wait to try it out! Thanks again! Steve McClellan Chicago Area 1981 M-15 #152 ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 7:13 Subject: Re: Fw: M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering Steve, That is a toughie to visualize about sheet-to-tiller. After all, firsthand experience shows us that in the extremes the sheet load goes slack heading up to the point of luffing and goes high when the wind is hitting the sail squarely instead of flowing along the sail. However, between those extemes, when the sail is acting like a foil, something different is going on. With "good" air flow, the lift the sail creates is proportional to the angle it hits the wind but proportional to the SQUARE of the speed with which it hits the wind. Heading up changes the apparent wind in both speed and direction. Since change in speed affects the lift more than angle, it is the controlling factor, so the answer is yes, the pull on the sheet does increase when you head up....until the sail luffs. And, conversely, the pull decreases when you bear off...until the air flow across the sail separates and the sail "stalls". Sheet-to-tiller isn't like a helmsman who sometimes tires and has a time lag. It responds as the boat is changing heading and so always stays on top of the game (unless there is a big wind shift or something). Hope this helps, Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Sounds like a plan . . . Does anyone want to go into the Montgomery parts-supply business? ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: M_Boats: Centerboard In case anyone is planning on that route, I work with CAD daily and we have the software to convert the drawing to code for a burning machine. (gas or plasma plate cutting) We have the burning machine too, but as Howard noted, getting it burned out locally would save a lot of freight. I can donate my time supplying the code if you (whomever) wanted to go that route and supply me with a tracing of the original board. Grinding the edges would be a quite a bit of work, too. (no, we don't have a CNC milling machine... :-)) Some smaller shops may still be using an electric eye burning machine and I could probably provide the full size tracing for that. (in fact before sending out any code I'd want to mail a full-size plot of what I generate in CAD for the owner to overlay on their old board to check for errors. Tod

Tod, I enjoyed the tale. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Are you ready for Spring? Russ Browne P.J. Puddlejumper SunCat #16 Sailing the prairie lakes in Nebraska --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!

My apologies to Cap'n Pauley, but it seems like the bent nail technique is awfully intrusive and maybe should be reserved for hard cases where substantial moisture penetration has already occurred. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 3:13 PM Subject: M_Boats: Teak Bedding Thanks for the Q-tip tip, Bob....I had put some tape on the underside, filled the hole, then pulled the tape catching the drips. Your way sounds a lot easier. I thought about the bent nail technique and figured it would get ugly if I tried it. Tod

--- "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote:

John.....Did it have electronic skip protection? That's a must-have.

Jerry...Thanks for the clue.....I'll just shift my forestay down to the lower hole (With the bowsprit it fit in the upper hole but now that I've taken that off I was about maxed out on the turnbuckle....this'll put me where I want to be)

There's nothing quite like the gleam of varnished wood.

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There are definitely better boats in light airs, but, per my response to Bones, I think you'd be amazed at the performance of the stubby, beamy, heavy Flicka: Her inexplicably nimble performance is just one of those mysterious features that some of the best hull designs have, including those drawn by Lyle. Bruce Bingham is a magician! ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:37 PM Subject: M_Boats: f l i c k a 2 0 vs M23 Years ago there was a Flicka at the Sandusky in-the-water boat show. It certainly is a neat boat but I have heard several times that it's strong suites are not light air or beating and that would be my main concern if I were in the market for that sort of boat. One good thing about them is that there are enough of them around that the price is often very reasonable. For better performance, I'd put my money on the Falmouth Cutter and for even better performance (except maybe in a *major* blow?) the M 23. Light air performance is one of my Thistle's strongest points: it'll still be moving long after nearly every other boat on the water has given up and fired up the iron jib. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Steve's two cents worth. Buy decent strippers, too. You don't want to cut any strands of the conductor. I also recommend that you buy wire and connectors that are specifically for a marine environment. Otherwise you can have corrosion issues that can be interesting to figure out. In a former life, I was an aircraft electrician, and made my share of mistakes. John makes some very good points. Regards, Steve Post Script: If you use a tool one time, it has paid for itself.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fleming" <jfleming1231@earthlink.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: montgomery_boats digest, Vol 1 #142 - 5 msgs

Tod,

I may be able to help also. I overhauled my electrical system on my Monty. Did a few things wrong, most of it mostly right, learned along the way.

Better than the "12 Volt Bible", I recommend Nigel Calder's big fat hardbound book on boat maintenance. (I forgot the title, and my house and bookshelves are in an uproar while the house is being remodeled.) His section on electrical work is complete and thorough, consistent with the current ABYC standards.

Several quick tips. 1. Plan it out in detail. Think about it a lot, make lots of drawings, look at all the catalogs to find and decide on all the electrical parts you will need. Have a complete wiring plan before you start, both physical and electrical. 2. Fuse everything. A short can burn your boat to the waterline. 3. Buy the very expensive wire crimpers.

Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd"

"htmills@bright.net" wrote:

...

Dan & Tom and any other offended parties,

...

Dan, I may well be able to use your help with BuscaBrisas' electrical system. I bought a book, "The 12 Volt Bible" in preparation for overhauling it since I know next to nothing about things electrical.

All

...

I know is that the existing system, which has been added to over the years, could be cleaned up and refined. I think I'd also like to install some LEDs in the cabin and bought some a while back for experimenting. When I get to it (after all the other things on my to-do list) I'll give a holler.

Thanks,

Tod

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Tod, Last year i put 3 LED's in the cabin of my M17 -- they work great and draw next to nothing -- i used orange. I put one at the top of the mast post support on the forward side. The other two, i put on the vertical surface formed by the forward end of the shelves molded into the liner. That way, they reflect off the v-berth wall illuminating the area where you would be, say, reading in bed while anchored in a secluded cove off of lopez island in the san juans. the location also has the advantage that its *really* easy to get the wiring routed down to the panel. Loyd

I think I'd also like to install some LEDs in the cabin and bought some a while back for experimenting. When I get to it (after all the other things on my to-do list) I'll give a holler.

Thanks,

Tod

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Peter, they were (or were very similar to) the hella oval amber ones, hella part#96255 -- see page 616 in w. marine 2001 catalog, or better yet, try this link http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201... between the 3 of them, they only draw 180 ma, so they'd draw less and 1 amp over 5 hours which essentially means if you have a battery on board at all, you could run them more than you'd ever need to. I also got one of those solar panels (again from west marine) at the boat show recently -- the ones that just clip onto your battery -- i think it generates 300 ma in bright sun. Seems to do an excellant job although i haven't cruised with it yet. loyd pjacobs@islandnet.com wrote:

Loyd: Could you give us some details as to what lED's you used?

-Peter- M17 "Enfin"

...

Tod, Last year i put 3 LED's in the cabin of my M17 -- they work great and draw next to nothing -- i used orange. I put one at the top of the mast post support on the forward side. The other two, i put on the vertical surface formed by the forward end of the shelves molded into the liner. That way, they reflect off the v-berth wall illuminating the area where you would be, say, reading in bed while anchored in a secluded cove off of lopez island in the san juans. the location also has the advantage that its *really* easy to get the wiring routed down to the panel.

Loyd

...

I think I'd also like to install some LEDs in the cabin and bought some a while back for experimenting. When I get to it (after all the other things on my to-do list) I'll give a holler.

Thanks,

Tod

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Thanks for the website, Tod! Love the high-school team idea. :-) My Monty's former owner replaced her boards with ash: I agree that the contrast is beautiful. The former owner's workmanship was pretty good and I like the result. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:47 PM Subject: M_Boats: boat cradle, water levels, hatchboards, & rudders Hmmmm......just had an interesting thought: 750# / 12people = about 63 each. Pretty manageable. Plus a few extras to wheel away the trailer and a few extras to scoot the cradle under. High school wrestling or football team oughta do it no problem. Heck, you hear about kids moving cars around. REALLY Quick and easy. Everybody has to bring their own pair of heavy gloves so the gunwale doesn't dig into palms. :-) ***************** Craig, here's historical water levels and predicted levels published by the army corps of engineers: http://www.lre.usace.army.mil/levels/bltnhmpg.html ***************** By golly, these ash hatchboards just might look pretty good. Because my cuts across the joints weren't perfect (hand-cut) I added an oak strip along the edge. The oak strip also stiffens the boards and also contrasts nicely with the very light ash. Had to stop the strip just shy of the ends to clear the companionway trim. I'm sealing up the first one tonight (and sealing side two of the rudder). ***************** Someone on the Potter message board had an interesting idea for tiller/rudder attachment that allows them to leave the tiller attached to the rudder for trailering: the tiller folds back 270* so that it's parallel to the trailing edge of the rudder. That would be pretty nice, I think. Another thing that would be nice would be a heavy lined canvas bag to store the rudder in to protect it from parking lot stones and other dings. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Thanks, Tod, I assume you have attachments on both sides of the mast? Also, looking at the pics, I didn't see evidence of a shackle on the clew cringle. It appears the pole attaches directly to the clew cringle. Is that right? Nice pics by the way -- thanks again! Dan M-17 316B "htmills@bright.net" wrote:

Dan,

Here are a couple of photos showing the whisker pole on BuscaBrisas.

The first one is flying a 109%: http://msog.org/trippics/tod_lakehuron_01/Image3.jpg

and the second one is flying a 155%: http://msog.org/trippics/tod_lakehuron_01/Image13.jpg

The sails are Kern's.

Notice that with the 109 the whisker pole is angled up quite a bit but with the 155 it's nearly horizontal. If I were mounting the whisker pole for the first time I'd raise the attachment on the mast up to maybe a couple of inches below the gooseneck.

Tod

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Thank you to all of you folks who expressed interest in the 7'-11" dinghy. I went from having zero interest to having more buyers than I had boats. The lucky new owner is John Edwards, who I'm sure will enjoy the boat in years to come. Also, thanks for all the good ideas and comments, like maybe "actually sailing the boat", that's one I never thought of. Steve Gray

I like it, Tod, I like it! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: "Sailing" Magazine Well, Craig, what adventure should we take so we have something to right about for the magazine? A trip in our Montgomerys from Duluth to the St. Lawrence? Maybe John will right up some of his big adventure, eh? Tod

I think you're right: It'll go forward far enough to allow you to remove the hatch-boards. I'm thinking the adjustable motor-mount would be worth retrofitting. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:43 PM Subject: M_Boats: adjustable motor mount, mast crutch It was already on the boat, Craig.......it's all I've ever known. Yes, good points that you and Connie have brought up about elevation.....it would be good if we recorded the minimum clearance between the transom and the mast with the mast pinned and the hatch forward or aft. I can't recall if my hatch will slide forward all the way or not.....I'm thinking it'll go a few inches, enough to get the hatchboards out. Tod

Thanks, Tod. I definitely need to get a Bruce this spring. I like the skein chocks. --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: Anchoring BuscaBrisas (17) came equipped with an 11# Bruce and a slightly lighter Danforth, both w/ some 1/4" chain (about 10-15' I think) and 3/8" nylon rode. I've been using the Bruce mainly because it has no moving parts to flop unexpectedly. I keep it in a milk crate under the cockpit (accessed from the cabin) and the Danforth in the port (deep) locker. Launch from the cockpit and walk the rode forward like it seems most of us do. On my vacation last year I retrieved some by first hoisting the main, sheeting it in, then going forward and leisurely weighing anchor while Busca self-tacked *very* slowly to weather. That was in light air so I didn't have to contend w/ heel and the anchorage was sort of narrow At anchor in Snug Harbour: http://msog.org/trippics/tod_lakehuron_01/pic_7.jpg She has twin cleats on the foredeck w/ skene chocks; same at the stern although the stern chocks seem to be pretty unecessary since there is a clear lead from the cleats. foredeck: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowcalm.jpg I also have a small folding grapnel w/ no chain but it's holding power is very limited. It's short rode lives on an electrical cord spool. Also aboard are some long lengths of 1/4" line for tying to the shore. They are on a spool too. Doug Kelch first alerted me to the concept of anchoring by the stern. It's great for ventilation. We always used to use a windscoop on my sister's S2 but so far there has been no need for it on BuscaBrisas despite some sweltering weather. I made some mosquito netting last year with lead weights sewn into the border and it works but would have been better if it had a cloth ribbon border with the weights better secured. They tend to bunch up and a cloth border would've muffled the smack of lead weights when draping the netting. Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"

On 4/29/02 9:19 PM, "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> wrote:

p.s. A couple thoughts to nobody in particular . . . I wonder if the bow chocks would be easy to install on an older 17 with the aluminum toe-rail (like mine) . . . Perhaps raised on a piece of teak. Seems like the stern chocks would be something on which you'd always be accidentally catching something, including body parts (ouch).

Craig: I have the bow chocks, backing plates, and have the teak blocks..cut and drilled. Ready to install! The teak blocks ARE needed to raise the chocks above the rail, so they won't chafe the rode. On my fishing boat, I also used to run the anchor line through a carbine hook off the bow eye. That lowers the angle of pull and requires less scope, and the bow didn't seem to plow as deep into large waves. And she rested more head to the wind vs. wagging back and forth when on the hook. Howard

Could you tell me the details of jacking the boat up and getting it off the trailer. I need to do the same with my M17, want to paint the boat, & do some repair on the trailer, & I. have been reluctant to start. What type jack did you use, where did you place it, & how did you block the boat up? How do you get the trailer out from under the boat with the jack in place? Appreciate your input. Wayne M17 #204 ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: M_Boats: trailer refurb and a question on winch location. Well, wish me luck....Am in the process of a trailerectomy. Last time I jacked the boat up off the trailer; this time I'm jacking up the whole kit and caboodle, then blocking the boat and lowering the trailer. We'll see which is easier. 'Twould be nice to have slings and a hoist but alas I have none (next time around I hope to!). Just picked up the sandblaster. Bought some steel from work to replace the tongue tube and add keel rollers (will have 4 instead of 1) and keel guides. Thanks everyone for sending in their pictures of their guides (and Doug for adding them to the web page), it helped me see how I'd like to do them. Hopefully by this time tomorrow the trailer will have that stuff and a coat of primer on it. *******Question in this paragraph******Right now, there is a 2.5" x 2.5" square tube sticking up from the tongue tube. On top of that is a 3" or 4" (can't recall just what it is) channel with both legs facing down. The winch is mounted on top of that and there is a V-block at the aft end of the channel for the bow of the boat. The V-block contacts the bow a couple of inches below the bow eye. Does anyone have a better arrangement? Thanks much, Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Not by a long shot -- I am truly interested in any experiences in that area. I sailed the San Juan Islands last year and am returning again this July -- unfortunately a couple of weeks before John Edwards is there making the San Juans part of his perimeter trip. I find the area very educational. Frankly, I can't imagine taking an M-15 through Deception Pass -- 14 foot tides and 9 knot currents. I went through it an hour before slack water in a 32' Bucanneer and the currents, whirlpools and upwellings kept me busy and were eye-popping. Coming back across Rosario Strait in fog with 1/4 mile visibility, I encountered wildly varying currents and foghorns that I KNEW were just astern. I can only imagine what crossing the Strait of Georgia might be like in an M-15. You bet, I would want to know as much about those experiences as Scott can write. Dan "htmills@bright.net" wrote:

Am I the only one who would greatly enjoy reading about some of Scott's travels in the PNW?

Tod

P.S......The Pardey's actually used a lapstrake Montgomery dinghy at one point in time....don't know if they still are. Pic of it in their first book.

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Ok, Tod. But I still can't visualize how the T connects to the tiller. If you bolt to the top of the main tiller, the extension will be pointing skyward! The shaft next to the "T" is what I would call stiffly flexible, but it isn't going to bend 90 to lie parallel with the existing tiller. What am I missing? Do you know of a U-joint extension, other than the Forespar? Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller Extension I had a tiller extension with a flexible rubber T on the end on my JY9. The tiller extension was of fixed length. The "top" of the T had two holes in it and there was a stainless plate with a hole in the center for the stem of the T and two smaller holes matching the two holes in the top of the T. Two screws went through the two holes and into the tiller with the stem of the T sticking out through the bigger center hole. My personal preference is for a conventional U-joint. I just like the feel of it better. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Hello, For our site http://personal.palouse.net/vhimsl which can also be reached through the "Buying an M15" on the MSOG site, pictures were taken with an Hewlett-Packard HP315. Ours is a 2.1 megapixle camera and it does snap shots very well (using an HP Photosmart 1315 printer), and it is currently cheap enough that you won't get too upset if it goes literally and or figuratively south on you. Our thoughts when we bought ours was to get the best quality cheap one as the technology on digital cameras as well as price would change dramatically and overnight. We bought ours about a year or so ago and then it was $300.00. Now it is around $150.00. We waited on buying additional memory cards as the price on them was dropping pretty fast. Bottom line? It just doesn't make much economic sense to spend a lot of money on these things. If I were buying now, I would take the same attitude. Almost any camera with 3.x megapixle resolution would be fine, especially for web page pics. The only caveat is that you might consider getting a digital Canon that will accept your lenses though these particular cameras aren't cheap! One advantage of the cheaper ones is that you just aim and shoot. Most problems can be corrected in the 'dark room' which is the computer for the digital crowd. Oh, your camera should come with some basic photo manipulation software too for making albums, etc. But be warned, this is a very addictive and time consuming path you are venturing down. For example, it took a good weekend to do our site, and by today's standards I would rate it at best average/fair. Good luck, Vince and Sharon Himsl "Duet" Doug & Stan, Thanks for the advice regarding digital cameras. I am aware of the sites you suggested. Unlike you, I have always had a keen interest in photography and even had my own darkroom at one time. I have a Canon A-1 multi-lense system, with two bodies for different speed films, but I prefer not exposing those cameras to a harsh marine environment. My snapshot camera when sailing is a Rollei 35 or my wife's little Pentax. I have a so-so (read cheap) scanner but downloading pictures into the computer is a slow process. Digital cameras are a completely different technology and I'm a little bit digiphobic. I 've read the reviews and checked the prices, but so far I haven't been able to make a commitment. Right now I am leaning toward buying the new Canon S330 Digital Elph. Tomorrow maybe something more inviting may come along. We'll see...

I would like to add some hanging nets/mesh bags to hold stuff inside Dulcibella's cabin. Can anyone recommend a good source of the netting, glue-on hanging hooks, etc.? Thanks, -- David Fann Montgomery 17 Dulcibella

Tod, Last year I replaced my thru-hulls. I have photos (but haven't gotten them scanned) of the procedure. There was no flange. Mine were very corroded and came out in pieces. I used some 1-1/2" SS tubing in place of the aluminum and glassed them in. I cut one end of the tubing at a 61° angle to match the hull and left enough exposed on the inside to give the drain hoses a good surface to clamp to. The aluminum tubing that exits the cockpit was still in very good shape so I didn't change those out. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE

Todd: I enjoyed your account of Your sail (sorry to hear of the ahh... unfortunate modifications to your mast) could you give the details of your self steering system. Sounds intresting Wayne M17 #204 "Intrepid" ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: M_Boats: CBR 2002, reader's digest condensed version I'll drop off my film tomorrow and should get them back by the end of the week or so, including the trailer modifications. (the keel guides worked fine) I'll let John Edwards tell the tale in detail and just relate my own part... What a fine rendezvous! As usual, I was running way late. The paint was still drying on the trailer when we (Busca and I) rolled out at midnight Saturday night/Sunday morning for the drive from Ohio to Maryland. I should have been there seven hours ago already. Twenty-five miles into the trip the port trailer fender developed a serious list to starboard. "Whoa!" I thought, and steered for the berm. But not before there was a loud "WHAM!!" and the fender disappeared from view altogether. I cautiously put the truck in neutral and ventured forth into the inky black night. Sure enough, the fender was really missing. I was afraid it might be laying in the highway waiting for some poor sleepy motorist, so I stumbled back to look for it. Not on the berm or in the road. That left the median, which contained nearly waist-high grass. It makes sense that a fender separated from a trailer at the instant the brakes are applied would wind up being relatively near the trailer, and sure enough, in the tall grass of the median nearly abeam of the parked trailer was my now-dented fender. I enlisted the aid of a flashlight to inspect the now naked tire. It didn't appear to have suffered any obvious damage so I resumed my course to the next exit for a more complete check up. Aside from a missing fender, all appeared to be in order. The tire did indeed look good and my recently replaced trailer tongue was still intact. I took a deep breath and climbed back into the truck to resume the journey. At mile two hundred eighty five I observed that the port trailer light and the license plate had assumed a new position....that of swaying to and fro an inch or so above the pavement. Once again we pulled to the side of the road. I had made a lightbar rather hastily from a piece of 2" schedule 40 PVC pipe and in my haste I had built into it several stress concentration areas; places with sharp notches. Over the course of time, with the wind buffeting the end of the notched pipe with the license plate, it cracked at one of the saw-cut notches. A little bit of line and the light and plate were jury-rigged in place and away we rolled. Again. The balance of the trip was without incident and at about 9 am I was on Solomon's Island at a pay phone calling John Edwards, whom I was planning on meeting for a week's cruise before the official start of the CBR. Fortunately, John is an easy-going guy. Some time later, BuscaBrisas was in her element and the water-borne part of the adventure was begun and which I'll leave for John to relate. Suffice it for now to say that some mighty fine sailing was had. I did not get my windvane self-steering finished before the trip, but I did get to try out Jay Fitzgerald's suggestion for a sheet-to-tiller arrangement. The first attempt was on a 12 nm *broad reach* up the Bay flying the 155% genoa with the full main. It worked wonderfully! I tried sitting on the foredeck. I tried sitting on the cabintop. In the cabin. I even took a shower in the cockpit while the boat steered herself along as pretty as you please. It was really impressive how she stayed the course! A couple of days later we had another broad reach. This time she self steered while I rigged up my Thistle spinnaker. Once I hoisted the spinnaker she quit the self-steering, but until it was ready to go she did great. Several days later we had a nice long broad reach and the wind was about as much as I'd want to fly the 155% in; Busca would've been well overcanvassed for a beat. Again she self-steered, but this time she tended to wander around a fair amount. She never went so far off course as to gybe, but the wandering was more than I wanted. The boatspeed was also off the mark quite a bit and everyone slowly creeped ahead too, except for Al Williams, whose "Horizon" held true to her name and left poor Busca behind....on the horizon. All the same, Busca sailed merrily along as I scrubbed the deck, put a bunch of wooden bungs in the handrail bolt holes (I had removed the handrails some time back and hadn't gotten around to replacing the bungs), and then spent some time in a new-found comfortable place to sit: on the foredeck with the radio tied to the mast, legs leaning against the bow pulpit (another reason to keep it) and head leaning back against the opened hatch cover. A fellow could doze off laying up there if it weren't for his duty to keep a sharp lookout! On the last of the longer trips, flying the 109% on a beat and the wind was light. I just couldn't get any combination, either the new or old arrangements, to work well at all. I'm not sure what the problem was, if it was shifty winds or what, but ended up hand-steering for most of the way. One year I think it was Doug Kelch who awarded various titles. Well, this year I lay claim to a new prize that I know I full well deserve. I took the expression "drop the mast" in earnest. It was one of those simple little moments when you're kind of tired and the mind is just NOT doing it's job. For some unknown reason, I pulled the bolt at the foot of the mast BEFORE lowering the mast instead of AFTERWARDS. Clearly, the mind was not engaged. Well, you can just guess what happened when I started leaning the mast back a bit to lower it. Yup, the end that was down came up and the end that was up came down. I am just SO LUCKY that I had repositioned the boat/trailer/truck further away from that nice blue S10 that had parked awfully close to me before beginning my otherwise mindless, boneheaded, award-winning job of mast lowering. And so, without further adieu, let me present myself with the "Boneheaded Move of the Cruise" award. The resulting damage: one mast relieved of a masthead light (the lens was cracked too), one slightly dented mast (I think I can pound it out), and a few minor gelcoat dings. Bill, if you can recall, correct me if I'm wrong: as it seems to me, I kept ahold of the mast for a while as it was falling but after the upper part struck the transom chock (putting the dent in the mast) it bounced mostly clear of my hands and rolled off the transom to the pavement. I think the foot stayed on the boat. It all happened very quickly and no amount of other mast raising gear would've safeguarded against such a disaster. Kind of like the lady that burned herself with McDonald's coffee....."Duh, whadda ya expect??" Ah, well. Anyway, we had pretty fine sailing weather with just a couple of lame days. In fact, on the Friday before the official start, Busca made a run with an average gps speed of 6.1 kts for over two hours. Now I know that this next figure isn't reliable, but I saw the current speed hit 11.0 kts for a moment while surfing down a wave! I switched the display to show the maximum speed but it was set on something from my truck so I cleared it out and not long after that it read 10.3 kts. Speeds of over 8 kts showed up very frequently with big drop-offs after losing the wave. I took some photos of that day; hope they turn out. I don't know what the current might have been. Steve E. sailed across the bay that same day. When he gets back maybe he'll tell us his adventures too! I had the pleasure of meeting some new (to me) faces, John Edwards, Stan & Carol, and Steve E. and some familiar ones from earlier rendezvous. (rendezvouses? rendyvoozes?) Your Faithful Correspondant, Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas" P.S. I did NOT get the gps to read that high by tossing it into the v-berth, honest! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Hi Todd I thought your account of your Lake Huron trip was intresting. What a great trip, have you sailed that area before? I plan on taking similar voyages when I retire next year. Bravo Wayne M17 #204 "Intrepid" ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: M_Boats: water usage thought I'd pass this along in case anyone is trip planning... I started the rendezvous with 28 gallons of water stowed under the v-berth. You can just imagine where that put my boot stripe. (boot stripe? what boot stripe? I didn't see any boot stripe. Did you see any boot stripe?). Add to that a couple of gallons in the solar shower starting out makes about 30 gallons. Figure 14 days on the water minus two days with access to shore showers leaves 12 days of usage. I returned with a whopping 13 gallons (I didn't think I had that much left) which means I used 17 gallons in 12 days, or less than 1 1/2 gallons/day. I didn't drink much of it and we ate out a fair amount, but I did use some to boil spaghetti noodles for a couple meals and other, lighter cooking. The big use was showering. Question is, whether that was big enough is something that can only be properly answered by those who may have been downwind :-) Had I done more cooking and drank more of it then probably the result would have been closer to 2 gallons/day consumption. I didn't keep a tally of my usage so I was a bit surprised at how much I brought back. gasoline used in that time period was 3 quarts per week with motoring mostly in calms. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Highlights of a weekend sail for Tod and list members, I took Storm Petrel up to Sandusky Friday night. Arrived late, slept onboard, then launched in the morning. There wasn't a breath of wind, and the forecast was for 10kts or less. The weather was beautiful, though, and I was set to make like a motorboat and explore the bay while the real stinkpotters slept off their Friday night activities. A bit of breeze stirred as I headed out at 9:30. By the time I reached Cedar Point, it was quite brisk. I ended up sailing counterclockwise around Kelley's Is. Had to make a couple of tacks to clear the island, but the wind was perfect, probably 12-15 knots out of the NE all day. So much for NOAA forecasts. The Forespar lock box worked great, especially on a beat. I was able to sail indefinitely without touching it, but with a slight loss in performance. I anchored on the N side for lunch and a rest. Figuring this would be a good test of my new 2kg (4.4lbs) claw, I dropped the jib then the anchor, leaving the main pulling strongly. The anchor bounced over the rocks for a while, but finally securely closed it's claw on something. I still need to try it in sand and mud, but so far so good. A very attractive area, the north side of the island, one that I hadn't visited. Peace reigned there, as there weren't many dreaded powerboats, although roughly 40 were anchored near the park, along with 6 of the sail variety. Nice sail around the N and W sides of the island. In spite of the considerable powerboat-induced chop in the South Passage, I made the best speeds of the trip on the beam reach from the island to the bay. I arrived back at Sadler around 5:30, left Storm Petrel next to your empty spot and had a late dinner with Chris and Jen. How's progress with your mast rehabilitation? Notes: For what was anticipated to be a washout weekend, windwise, the winds couldn't have been better. I've never seen such chop as exists in the west end of Lake Erie. Must be the shallow depths. But the Chesapeake is largely shallow, and it isn't as bad there. ???? On the way out, near Marblehead, I passed the BCC heading back toward the bay. Many blue herons were out, several just standing on the rocks (including one on the jetty at Sadler), facing into the breeze and enjoying the weather. One flying near the island wheeled and dove like a gull on a potential meal. Never saw a heron do that before. He looked a bit awkward, but was successful getting airborne again. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

Yes it is "Whoa Nellie". Have owners done a lot of modifications to the M17? I found a 2001 on the net on South Carolina for big money. The M17 sounds like a sailboat that I will like the question is whether it will meet our needs. How can I get in touch with Connie? Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: new to list Hi, Irv What I haven't told anyone is that the little rooster tail that BuscaBrisas was sporting came courtesy of the "ACME Cockadoodledoo Roostertail Generator" that I bought on sale for $9.99 plus postage and handling from a late night TV ad. :-) The seventeen is a stout little boat that you can have confidence in. A boat of that era will be pretty spartan but strong. In my opinion, based on what I've seen of Precisions at the boat shows, the Montgomery is quite a bit more heavily built. The Precisions I've seen at the shows seemed to creak a lot when stepping on them and some of the finish details were definitly not "yacht" quality....like the raw-edged floppy plywood panels that cover the aft cabin wall and held on with 3 or 4 screws and the fold-out shelf that didn't quite fold without binding. Some of the hardware (plastic horn cleats) I'd want to change out to higher quality as well. Still, I do like the basic design and layout of the 21 and think it would make a comfortable boat with quite a LOT more room than the 17, especially if the whole family is going for an overnighter. If everyone overnights you'll really want the 4-berth model. In my opinion, your best bets for quality that you can have confidence in are the Montgomery and the Compacs, but the Montgomery will be a little smaller but faster than the 19. Doug quoted you the max speed my GPS was reading, but perhaps a more indicative and accurate figure is the 6.1 kts AVERAGE speed for over 2 hours. That was a fun sail, for sure! An '82 17 would still have the cast iron board, so if it hasn't been re-done (cleaned and coated) it likely will need it.....the problems that people have with them are just due to neglected maintenance. Keel area is the only big maintenance discussion area for the boat it seems, but of course you want to check for spongy deck if bedding has not been kept up either. If that's "Whoa Nellie", Connie could probably tell you about her; I think he's seen her in person. There's probably even some correspondance about her in the list archives. Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas" _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Thanks, Tod! Once again, your input is invaluable! --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:02 PM Subject: Quantity of Rope for Sheets, M17 Craig, You couldn't have timed it better.....I just bought that yesterday. I bought sheets that would go with my largest genoa (155%)(and, by extension would also work for the smaller ones which require less) and my mainsail. I guessed wildly rather than actually measure and ended up with about 3' to spare. What I bought was: 85' of 7/16". The original was 3/8" but I went up a notch for the comfort that's in it. I think 7/16" is about the max that will run through my blocks. Tod

Tod, I will check with Eugene, he had a new storm made for "Whoa Nellie:. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: M_Boats: 17 --- storm jib I've spotted an inexpensive storm jib with dimensions: 9'-8" luff 7'-0" leech 4'-4" foot 15 sq ft I'm thinking that's on the small side (or a REAL storm jib), although supposedly the sail was for a Cape Dory Typhoon; anyone with a storm jib know the area (or dims)? It seems that about the comfortable limit with my blown out single-reefed main and 80% jib is around 25 kts, afterwhich I have to feather when beating. Thanks, Tod (30 days and counting) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Tod, Take a look at http://webhost.sailnet.com/glss/v2n8.htm Another thing I would suggest is that in going over, it isn't all that unlikely that you are going to suffer some bodily injury up to and including getting knocked in the head by a turnbuckle -- plan on it. The inflatable life jacket with integral harness and a 3 point tether is, I think, a good solution. The shorter tether (3 ft) being clipped to a forestay or the mast and the longer tether (6 ft) to the jack line. Dan M-17 #316B "htmills@bright.net" wrote:

Here's my latest thinking on drown prevention. Yet another boater has drowned in Lake Erie. There has been a lot of them it seems. This guy was a 37 y.o. man singlehanding a 15' boat (make unkown) from either Lorain or Vermilion (have heard both on the news) to Johnson's Island in Sandusky Bay. Waves were just 2', but a ferry spotted his boat drifting between Marblehead and Kelley's Island with no one aboard. Helicopter and patrol boat searching has been called off.

Feel free to critique; it may be your chance to save my butt:

Picture two long tethers. Each tied to the boat at the bow only and each with an eye in the other end. Each runs back to the cockpit, one on each side of the boat outside the [inboard] shrouds. Then, a shorter tether on the harness that can be clipped to a padeye in the cockpit or to one of the other tethers. When going forward, I'll clip to the weather tether. If I fall overboard either direction I should be outside the shrouds and sheets or, if the jib is down, over the sheets. I hopefully don't have to unhook to end up at the transom or fool with clipping one and unclipping a second tether. If need be, I suppose you could even hold the boat by the tether [painter] and choose the side you wanted to go to the boarding ladder. Might get dragged a bit before the boat rounded up, but it's light enough that it should round up when connected at the bow.

On the 17, the chances of falling overboard to leeward aft of the shrouds has to be minimal with the small space between the boom and the deck; it's when moving from the cabin side to the fordeck that looks to be the risky place. That and going over to weather while along the cabin.

I think I'll add a padeye to the front of the cockpit next to the centerboard pendant.

**************

Thanks for the storm jib dimensions, John; I've never seen a sail quite like that before. A pic of it flying would be interesting, I'm sure. I went ahead today and ordered the one I had seen.

Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"

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If you are concerned about the reliability of an inflatable and the class I PFD is too uncomfortable. You might like the very comfortable vests used by Sea Kayakers. Stolquest (sp?) makes a really comfortable USCG approved vest. The neoprene vests worn by slalom skiers are quite comfortable, though a little pricey. Some neoprene vests are not USCG approved, but they are very comfortable, slim fitting and provide enough floatation that you don't need to tread water. Obviously if you plan on being unconscious when you fall overboard, only the automatic (if it works) inflatable or the bulky type I is going to keep your face out of the water. (If you have the required USCG vests on board, you can wear anything you want). Smitty Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! US-842 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kelch" <doug_kelch@yahoo.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:42 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: tether, storm jib Dan and Tod, An interesting web site. I use a flat nylon web for a jack line. It doesn't roll underfoot when you step on it. My jack line runs from a stern cleat, through the bow cleat and back to the other stern cleat. There is enough excess web to use as a line to tie off the tiller. I use an inflatable life jacket with integral harness but I have recently heard bad things about their reliability. When required to inflate they don't always work. The canisters leak with age and the only test is a destructive one. The defect rate on new cannisters is high enough not to trust your life to. I still use it because I don't want to wear a full vest and it's better than just a plain harness. I use two 6 ft tethers to get around the shroud problem. each tether has carbiner clips on both ends but one is kept coiled up and tied off so it doesn't get in the way. The M15 is low enough in the water that I can reach the jack line from the water at the shrouds and switch tethers at that point. I hope we never need any of it. Thanks Doug Kelch --- Dan White <danwhite@austin.rr.com> wrote:

Tod,

Take a look at http://webhost.sailnet.com/glss/v2n8.htm

Another thing I would suggest is that in going over, it isn't all that unlikely that you are going to suffer some bodily injury up to and including getting knocked in the head by a turnbuckle -- plan on it.

The inflatable life jacket with integral harness and a 3 point tether is, I think, a good solution. The shorter tether (3 ft) being clipped to a forestay or the mast and the longer tether (6 ft) to the jack line.

Dan M-17 #316B

"htmills@bright.net" wrote:

...

Here's my latest thinking on drown prevention. Yet another boater has drowned in Lake Erie. There has been a lot of them it seems. This guy was a 37 y.o. man singlehanding a 15' boat (make unkown) from either Lorain or Vermilion (have heard both on the news) to Johnson's Island in Sandusky Bay. Waves were just 2', but a ferry spotted his boat drifting between Marblehead and Kelley's Island with no one aboard. Helicopter and patrol boat searching has been called off.

Feel free to critique; it may be your chance to save my butt:

Picture two long tethers. Each tied to the boat at the bow only and each with an eye in the other end. Each runs back to the cockpit, one on each side of the boat outside the [inboard] shrouds. Then, a shorter tether on the harness that can be clipped to a padeye in the cockpit or to one of the other tethers. When going forward, I'll clip to the weather tether. If I fall overboard either direction I should be outside the shrouds and sheets or, if the jib is down, over the sheets. I hopefully don't have to unhook to end up at the transom or fool with clipping one and unclipping a second tether. If need be, I suppose you could even hold the boat by the tether [painter] and choose the side you wanted to go to the boarding ladder. Might get dragged a bit before the boat rounded up, but it's light enough that it should round up when connected at the bow.

On the 17, the chances of falling overboard to leeward aft of the shrouds has to be minimal with the small space between the boom and the deck; it's when moving from the cabin side to the fordeck that looks to be the risky place. That and going over to weather while along the cabin.

I think I'll add a padeye to the front of the cockpit next to the centerboard pendant.

**************

Thanks for the storm jib dimensions, John; I've never seen a sail quite like that before. A pic of it flying would be interesting, I'm sure. I went ahead today and ordered the one I had seen.

Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"

_______________________________________________

http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

_______________________________________________

http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

good idea, the shot of your bow are great. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Chocks Irv, I don't have aluminum toe rail, but I remember seeing something in one of the catalogs for attaching to aluminum toe rail. All it did was sandwich the extrusion and a bolt through the holes in the extrusion clamped it in place. Maybe something similar would work: Two blocks of wood shaped to fit up to the toe rail with bolts clamping them to it. Then you have a flat surface for the chock. I'm not sure what the bolt spacing it on the rail, but perhaps a pair of them could be removed with longer ones that would pass through the chock, the block, the rail and the deck edge. Just a thought. If you didn't want wood to maintain, substitute the material of your choice. BuscaBrisas has teak toerails and someone trimmed them back a wee bit to make room for the chocks: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowcalm.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowstark.jpg Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

My concern is drilling extra holes in the deck. It is not definite but my personal situation has improved and Nellie will become part of the family if I can get hold of Eugene. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:08 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Bow Chocks Why not a teak base fastened to the deck, the height of the toe rail, onto which a chock would be mounted? This is the solution I plan to use on my boat. You wouldn't have to maintain the teak base: It would be largely out of view and teak in its "natural state" will last indefinitely. Irv, Did you purchase a 17', just not Eugene's? I was confused by your past email regarding Eugene's boat and thought that you had decided not to buy a 17. --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:30 PM Subject: Bow Chocks Irv, I don't have aluminum toe rail, but I remember seeing something in one of the catalogs for attaching to aluminum toe rail. All it did was sandwich the extrusion and a bolt through the holes in the extrusion clamped it in place. Maybe something similar would work: Two blocks of wood shaped to fit up to the toe rail with bolts clamping them to it. Then you have a flat surface for the chock. I'm not sure what the bolt spacing it on the rail, but perhaps a pair of them could be removed with longer ones that would pass through the chock, the block, the rail and the deck edge. Just a thought. If you didn't want wood to maintain, substitute the material of your choice. BuscaBrisas has teak toerails and someone trimmed them back a wee bit to make room for the chocks: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowcalm.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowstark.jpg Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

smitty, I did not want to respond until I spoke with Eugene and I have not spoken to him as of tonight. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Smitty Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:35 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Chocks Ah-ha, now I see why you didn't reply to my last e-mail question. Smitty Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! US-842 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irv Kooris" <kooris@rcn.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Bow Chocks My concern is drilling extra holes in the deck. It is not definite but my personal situation has improved and Nellie will become part of the family if I can get hold of Eugene. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:08 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Bow Chocks Why not a teak base fastened to the deck, the height of the toe rail, onto which a chock would be mounted? This is the solution I plan to use on my boat. You wouldn't have to maintain the teak base: It would be largely out of view and teak in its "natural state" will last indefinitely. Irv, Did you purchase a 17', just not Eugene's? I was confused by your past email regarding Eugene's boat and thought that you had decided not to buy a 17. --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:30 PM Subject: Bow Chocks Irv, I don't have aluminum toe rail, but I remember seeing something in one of the catalogs for attaching to aluminum toe rail. All it did was sandwich the extrusion and a bolt through the holes in the extrusion clamped it in place. Maybe something similar would work: Two blocks of wood shaped to fit up to the toe rail with bolts clamping them to it. Then you have a flat surface for the chock. I'm not sure what the bolt spacing it on the rail, but perhaps a pair of them could be removed with longer ones that would pass through the chock, the block, the rail and the deck edge. Just a thought. If you didn't want wood to maintain, substitute the material of your choice. BuscaBrisas has teak toerails and someone trimmed them back a wee bit to make room for the chocks: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowcalm.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowstark.jpg Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Hi Smitty: Can you email me privately at the following address?: mjorge@med.miami.edu. There is something I'd like to discuss offline. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Smitty" <smith845@wcsonline.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:32 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Chocks

No [problem I'm thinking that I will go with a new boat this spring or early summer. I will be depending on the boat for many years and I think it would be best to have a new or near new boat. It Eugene's boat was much closer it would be a better possibility. Thanks, Smitty Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! US-842 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irv Kooris" <kooris@rcn.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:03 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Bow Chocks

smitty, I did not want to respond until I spoke with Eugene and I have not spoken to him as of tonight. Irv -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Smitty Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:35 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Chocks

Ah-ha, now I see why you didn't reply to my last e-mail question. Smitty Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! US-842 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irv Kooris" <kooris@rcn.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Bow Chocks

My concern is drilling extra holes in the deck. It is not definite but my personal situation has improved and Nellie will become part of the family if I can get hold of Eugene. Irv

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:08 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Bow Chocks

Why not a teak base fastened to the deck, the height of the toe rail, onto which a chock would be mounted? This is the solution I plan to use on my boat. You wouldn't have to maintain the teak base: It would be largely out of view and teak in its "natural state" will last indefinitely.

Irv, Did you purchase a 17', just not Eugene's? I was confused by your past email regarding Eugene's boat and thought that you had decided not to buy a 17. --Craig

----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:30 PM Subject: Bow Chocks

Irv,

I don't have aluminum toe rail, but I remember seeing something in one of the catalogs for attaching to aluminum toe rail. All it did was sandwich the extrusion and a bolt through the holes in the extrusion clamped it in place. Maybe something similar would work: Two blocks of wood shaped to fit up to the toe rail with bolts clamping them to it. Then you have a flat surface for the chock. I'm not sure what the bolt spacing it on the rail, but perhaps a pair of them could be removed with longer ones that would pass through the chock, the block, the rail and the deck edge.

Just a thought. If you didn't want wood to maintain, substitute the material of your choice.

BuscaBrisas has teak toerails and someone trimmed them back a wee bit to make room for the chocks:

http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowcalm.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/bowstark.jpg

Tod

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Thanks,I am seriously considering the Tohatsu. I will look into the prop issue. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Great News and a Question Congratulations, Irv! I'm sure 4 hp enough, the question is how well the outboard transfers the power to the water. That depends on whether the gearing and the propellor were designed for pushing a heavy load slowly or a light load fast. I tried opening the Tohatsu web page but, as with more and more web pages, my old windows 3.1 computer crashes. You might compare the specifications between the propellors. When I bought my Honda a couple years ago, there were two different props for it: 7 7/8 x 7 1/2 and 7 7/8 x 6 3/4. (Diameter x Pitch). The 7 1/2 pitch prop was standard. With it, the engine rpm maxed out at about half-throttle. I bought the 6 3/4 pitch prop after a year and with it the rpm's max out at about 3/4 throttle, so the 6 3/4 pitch prop is a better match between the engine and the load it's pushing and more engine power is being transmitted to the water. That doesn't translate into a particularly noticable increase in speed since resistance goes up quickly in relation to speed, but it does mean that the boat will be able to power against a stronger headwind. An even lower pitch of, say, 6 1/2 or maybe 6 1/4 for the Honda would have been better but those weren't choices. With the high-dollar bigger bronze props the pitch can be adjusted some but I don't think anything can be done with these little ones. Other desirable features for our application (high load, low speed) is blade diameter (bigger is better) and blade area (again, bigger is better). The latter you likely won't find in the literature, but the diameter should be easy to learn. Another thing is the engine torque characteristics. In our application, an engine which develops more torque at lower rpms will probably be better than one which develops it at higher rpms. I believe the Honda 5 is pretty good in that regard, based on a review I read. In summary, for our application, a large diameter prop with lots of blade area that turns relatively slower is better than a small prop that turns faster. Gee, this sounds like a British Seagull! Aside from those technical aspects, other things to consider are: Is there a dealer nearby for the engine? One of Honda's disadvantages is that their dealer network is not as extensive as some of the others. That may not be an issue for you. Happy decision making, Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas" _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Todd: thanks for the information. The J24 tiller is now installed on "Really". I will never go back to the old tiller, unless my admiral all of a sudden decides she loves sailing like she did before we got married, and wants to crew. Now, I'm sitting at the bridge deck. I can release the mainsheet with ease. I have easy access to below, if I need something in a hurry. My weight is now right where "Really" likes it when we go to weather. I can even sit up on the coaming with the tiller extension and not have to stretch. The J24 tiller is too heavy, in my opinion for getting the rudder and tiller in and out of the cabin as well as setting it up for sailing. It's a good looking tiller but a little too bulky when setup on the small 15. I've contacted Frank Royce in Costa Mesa who is making me a longer M15 tiller - 46"-48" in length. I should have it within a couple weeks. The tides are right for testing it out next week. I'll report to you again, after sailing. "htmills@bright.net" wrote:

Rich,

My new M17 tiller from the factory is 1 3/8" wide x 2 1/2" deep at the butt and it's 3'-9" long plus about 4" from the end of the wood to the center of the pivot. The length is about a couple inches longer than the one that came with the boat.

Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"

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Todd, Is it at all possible that the water in the bilge is coming in through the pendant? I always collect a little water in the bilge and it is from busting waves. I can see little squirts come up through the hole in the trunk that the pendant feeds through, After a day's sail, I have to bail several gallons. Dan "htmills@bright.net" wrote:

Howard,

Last year whilst crawling underneath Busca I noted a gap in a few spots between the exterior hull and the fabrication that forms the centerboard trunk: ___ ___ | | | | | | | | |_| |_| ^

I mixed up some epoxy with colloidal silica filler and putty-knifed it in as best I could. I'm pretty sure that I have that sealed if indeed it was a source of ingress.

For some reason, Busca isn't bone dry. A small amount of water collects in the bilge and in the little valleys in the faux lapstrakes. This past trip was about half or less of what I would normally have picked up and I think the difference was from re-doing the bottom transom gudgeon. There were little watermarks below the three bolts and I'm pretty sure I have that sealed up good now. I thought perhaps some of it could be coming from the fresh-water porta-pot tank because it is vented, but this time I tilted the porta-pot about 45* before putting it on the boat to drain off any water that would have leaked. Some could have also been coming from my water jugs on prior trips, but not this time. That leaves the through-hulls or maybe (?) the centerboard pinhole? The centerboard pin is a very tight fit, but I am not sure if water could be leaking past it, either from inside the well or outside to the inside of the keel. I don't know what is in there. I assume (perhaps Jerry could comment on this) that there is at least a partial void between the hull and the cabin sole and that if water could migrate up the keel through the ballast it could collect between the sole and the hull?

I do have an extra through-hull for a speedo but I'm going to pull that and plug it. I'm running out of ideas on where that water could be coming from. I haven't tasted it (seems like a good opportunity to get sick) to see if it's saltwater or fresh.

Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"....................fiberglass/lead board, galley model

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Hello Tod, I really enjoyed installment number one of "tod's most excellent adventure" ! Went immediately to the Rand McNally to check out the area-it looks like great sailing with options that will challenge any sailor. I am interested to know how" BuscasBricas" is outfitted for sailing 20 miles offshore. What sails do you carry? use? Bring a motor? why? Any sort of liferaft? Do you sail single-handed? Have you modified the companionway or the hatch for offshore use? etc., etc. Looking forward to the next chapter. Ron Goodspeed M17 "hula pie" #025

Tod, Grace used to collect some water in the bilge also. I wriggled under the cockpit while she was in the water and inspected the thru-hulls at the point at which the hoses attached. A little pressure with my fingers quickly revealed that the thru hulls were corroded to the point of failure (I was thankful that Grace has a bilge pump even though the amount of water coming in was not that great). Another symptom that she exhibited was the collection of rainwater in the bilge after a heavy rain. After replacing the thru-hulls she has remained bone-dry inside. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 Grace

Hello Wayne, I approached this job (replacing the thru-hulls) with much trepidation as I am essentially a rookie at fiberglass repairs. I read a few books on fiberglass repair in an attempt to avoid any major blunders. The anticipation, however; turned out to be much worse than the actual work (as is often the case). I first removed the hoses. The metal nipples just crumbled into small pieces as I pulled the hoses which left me no choice but to finish the job. I wiped everything down thoroughly with solvent then I used my dremel grinder to get down to the point where all the metal was exposed from the outside of the hull. I then pried and pulled and tapped until I had removed all the bits of metal. I followed that with some more grinding and another cleaning with solvent. I used some 1-1/2" ss tubing for the new nipples. One end of each was cut to match the exterior hull shape (61° in my case). The tubing was solvent washed and then the outside was roughened and washed again. The tubing fit fairly well in the openings in the hull (just enough room for a liberal coat of epoxy). After the tubing was epoxied into position I added layers of fiberglass and epoxy inside the hull leaving enough tubing exposed for a solid attachment of the hoses. I also built up the area around the exit of the tubing with thickened epoxy so that the cut end of the tubing was not exposed. I then faired it all up, added a thin coat of epoxy to the inside of the tubing and finished with paint. It looks good from the outside, a little rough on the inside where it is difficult to reach (and rarely seen anyway), and it is very solid. The total cost was less than $50, most of which was related to the ss tubing. It took a while to locate a metal shop that had some 1-1/2" stainless tubing (I bought 24" at $1.00 per lineal inch). I also had some difficulty finding someone who could cut the 61° angle (most places only cut 90° or 45° angles it seems) and there was a $10 charge for that cut (one cut in the center giving me two equal pieces with the proper angle on each). After carefully dry fitting each piece I shortened them up with a good new hacksaw blade and a fair amount of elbow grease (I think I took about an inch or two off of the inboard end of each). It really wasn't a very tough job, but it is scary thinking about making holes in the bottom of your boat! I just hope some expert on this list doesn't spot a serious blunder (if you do please speak up!!). The Pacific Ocean hasn't gotten in yet, so I think I did alright. Good luck, Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 Grace

Mark, After all my blather about bronze thru-hulls and scupper re-routing, it sounds like you came up with the lowest-impact repair. My only (probably unwarranted) concern is water leaking around the edges of the stainless pipe and getting between the glass and pipe. Stainless will not corrode in seawater only as long as there is plenty of dissolved oxygen to keep the passive surface layer intact. When stainless is exposed to stale low-oxygen-content seawater, it corrodes the same as any metal. So the polyester or epoxy should be lapped seamlessly over the pipe edges and into the inner surface. Bronze doesn't seem to have that kind of corrosion problem. I read recently where somebody was exclaiming that bronze was very much an ideal marine metal, since they have pulled up bronze artifacts from 2000 yr-old wrecks that were pretty much intact, once all the sea growth was cleaned off. Once again, thanks for a good description of a smart repair. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd"

It really wasn't a very tough job, but it is scary thinking about making holes in the bottom of your boat! I just hope some expert on this list doesn't spot a serious blunder (if you do please speak up!!). The Pacific Ocean hasn't gotten in yet, so I think I did alright. Good luck, Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 Grace

www.bristolbronze.com . . . Call and ask Roger Winiarski about bronze versus stainless: He loves to talk about the superior corrosion resistance of bronze. Should be a very superior material for the new M23's c-board. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fleming" <jfleming1231@earthlink.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 4:01 AM Subject: M17 Keel/Centerboard Mark, After all my blather about bronze thru-hulls and scupper re-routing, it sounds like you came up with the lowest-impact repair. My only (probably unwarranted) concern is water leaking around the edges of the stainless pipe and getting between the glass and pipe. Stainless will not corrode in seawater only as long as there is plenty of dissolved oxygen to keep the passive surface layer intact. When stainless is exposed to stale low-oxygen-content seawater, it corrodes the same as any metal. So the polyester or epoxy should be lapped seamlessly over the pipe edges and into the inner surface. Bronze doesn't seem to have that kind of corrosion problem. I read recently where somebody was exclaiming that bronze was very much an ideal marine metal, since they have pulled up bronze artifacts from 2000 yr-old wrecks that were pretty much intact, once all the sea growth was cleaned off. Once again, thanks for a good description of a smart repair. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" It really wasn't a very tough job, but it is scary thinking about making holes in the bottom of your boat! I just hope some expert on this list doesn't spot a serious blunder (if you do please speak up!!). The Pacific Ocean hasn't gotten in yet, so I think I did alright. Good luck, Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 Grace

Has anyone had to access the upper regions of their M17 transom, either to tighten gudgeon bolts, add an engine mount or transom ladder? If so, how did you negotiate the space? Did you have to cut access holes in the cockpit face of the transom?

Thanks, Bob and Doug: I think I may "make the cut" next spring. Did you install round, or rectangular access ports. Is there a difference? --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Campbell" <racsrv@attbi.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:45 AM Subject: Transom Access & Cockpit Drainage Jerry Montgomery installed an access port in the middle of my transom on the cockpit side centered between the top of the transom and the fuel locker. He did this to allow the installation of a cleat on the transom for the lift up rudder. This also gives me access to inspect/tighten the gudgeon bolts. Strategically placed inspection ports are a thing of beauty! As far as cockpit drainage goes, Alina has drainage from the cockpit directly to the transom via thru-hulls, hoses, and check valves. I was still getting water in the cockpit from the cockpit drains and the "Old Faithful" centerboard pennant. My solution is rubber stoppers in the cockpit drains, and rigging tape (the kind that only sticks to itself) taper-wrapped around the centerboard pennant. I wrap the tape loose enough to permit the centerboard pennant to slide through it when lifting and lowering the center board. This combination keeps Alina's cockpit nice and dry. I keep a sponge and a small bilge pump handy for the occasional stray splashes that find their way into the cockpit. When conditions dictate, I kick the stoppers out. Alina just returned from a few days at "Master Montgomery's" shop where she received a new Aqua Signal bi-color bow pulpit mounted running light, and 3 internal cockpit hatch securing lines. On a previous visit, Jerry relocated the forestay to the very tip of the bow where it can straddle the deck joint. He explained that the new location opens the jib slot to enhance performance, and also provides a more secure attachment point for the forestay. Consequently the existing bow mounted running light had to be relocated. Man, he does fine work! Bob Campbell Montgomery 17 #615 "Alina" Lodi, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:57 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Transom Access Has anyone had to access the upper regions of their M17 transom, either to tighten gudgeon bolts, add an engine mount or transom ladder? If so, how did you negotiate the space? Did you have to cut access holes in the cockpit face of the transom? _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Nice pictures Tod! Of course I especially like the last one - "livinggood". I see you have installed a swim ladder. Have you used it yet? What model is it? Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" --- "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote:

In case anyone is interested, here are some pics:

Sailing: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/scootin.jpg

On the road: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/truckin.jpg

The new light bar: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/ltbar1.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/ltbar2.jpg http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/ltbar3.jpg

Tiedowns: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/tiedowns.jpg

Motormount & new Boarding Ladder: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/momo.jpg

Hatchboards http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/3_hatch.jpg

Drawer/Door Fronts http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/r03-01small.jpg

The View from Perry's Monument http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/pib.jpg

An oddball dinghy: http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/cardinghy.jpg

Life on an M15 can indeed be sumptuous (taken at the CBR02): http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/livinggood.jpg

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Tod, Great pictures thanks. One question how do your cockpit drains work, I noticed you have thru hulls as well as transom drains. Irv ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: photos Stan, I just held the camera out and hoped I got a halfways decent composition and that I didn't drop it overboard! That day I had a passenger steering the boat, so no prob there. If you want to see some creative photography, the guy that makes Cape Horn Windvanes sailed around the world and made a film of it. He had the movie camera strapped onto his head, flying from a kite over the boat, suspended from the overhead of the cabin, everywhere he could get it. I would like to try putting it on the end of a boathook and see if I can get a semi-aerial shot. Standing on the transom and leaning back hanging onto the backstay doesn't quite get the camera far away enough. ----------

Tod,

Enjoyed your pictures - but tell me, how did you get that first one ? Hanging that far out must have really been an acid test for your auto-pilot.

Stan

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I've shipped water through the 17's centerboard pennant hole: It tends to "spout" while under sail. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:34 AM Subject: M17 Keel/Centerboard Howard, Last year whilst crawling underneath Busca I noted a gap in a few spots between the exterior hull and the fabrication that forms the centerboard trunk: ___ ___ | | | | | | | | |_| |_| ^ I mixed up some epoxy with colloidal silica filler and putty-knifed it in as best I could. I'm pretty sure that I have that sealed if indeed it was a source of ingress. For some reason, Busca isn't bone dry. A small amount of water collects in the bilge and in the little valleys in the faux lapstrakes. This past trip was about half or less of what I would normally have picked up and I think the difference was from re-doing the bottom transom gudgeon. There were little watermarks below the three bolts and I'm pretty sure I have that sealed up good now. I thought perhaps some of it could be coming from the fresh-water porta-pot tank because it is vented, but this time I tilted the porta-pot about 45* before putting it on the boat to drain off any water that would have leaked. Some could have also been coming from my water jugs on prior trips, but not this time. That leaves the through-hulls or maybe (?) the centerboard pinhole? The centerboard pin is a very tight fit, but I am not sure if water could be leaking past it, either from inside the well or outside to the inside of the keel. I don't know what is in there. I assume (perhaps Jerry could comment on this) that there is at least a partial void between the hull and the cabin sole and that if water could migrate up the keel through the ballast it could collect between the sole and the hull? I do have an extra through-hull for a speedo but I'm going to pull that and plug it. I'm running out of ideas on where that water could be coming from. I haven't tasted it (seems like a good opportunity to get sick) to see if it's saltwater or fresh. Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas"....................fiberglass/lead board, galley model

Tod, How did the P19 compare to the M17? Regarding the H-Cat, I understand a masthead sloop will always perform better than a gaff-rigged catboat, even if the catboat in question is a "modified" design, with modern keel and rudder. Thanks, Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:40 PM Subject: Annapolis Sailboat Show Arrived back in Ohio this evening after a fine extended weekend at the Annapolis Sailboat Show. It was good to see some fellow M-boaters at the show. While I didn't see any boats I'd rather own right now than the Montgomery 17, it was fun seeing what boats are out there and checking out all the vendor's booths and the pocketbook didn't come away unscathed: Next spring, or maybe even this fall yet, BuscaBrisas will lose her mailbox-lettering and instead be seen sporting her name and home port in fancy new lettering in matching blue on the transom. Unlike last year, I did traipse through a few of the big boats. One of the things I did was sit in the cockpit for a while. My standard for cockpits is our very own M-17's and I have to say, some very large, very expensive boats just didn't measure up. Even the Hinckley Sou'wester 52's cockpit fell short. Despite all the care that went into that semi-custom boat with the coats of immacculate varnish and such, they just didn't get the ergonomics of the cockpit very well at all. On the other hand, the Hallberg-Rassey's cockpits did make the grade. The Pacific Seacraft Dana was there and that is a very impressive boat, although a lot more fancy than I'd ever need or be able to afford. I've no doubt that the new 23 will have no trouble knocking the socks off her speedwise. The boat which perhaps caught my attention the most was the new Com-pac Horizon 20 "catboat", only because I've lately been making some rough sketches of how I'd lay out a small cruiser for my own semi-liveaboard use and lo and behold there is was almost to a tee except for the hull, deck and catboat rig that it was packaged in: minor things. *grin* Got to speak with David Dressler with the Potter 19 and finally actually climbed aboard one. Turns out he's from none other than my home state: Ohio (a former Cleveland resident). Tod Mills

Tod, You are a man of great wisdom. Bob Campbell Montgomery 17, #615 "Alina" Lodi, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 3:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annapolis Sailboat Show

Tod, How did the P19 compare to the M17?

You trying to get me in trouble, Craig? *grin* My lips are sealed. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Jerry, I had Arlene write your name and number on the wall in all the rooms with a door marked "Wahine". One of our stops was lunch at the Outrigger Canoe club. Everyone there was recovering from the Molokai race! Bob -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Montgomery Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:13 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annapolis Sailboat Show Hi Bob; You're back, I see. I hope you told all the Hawaiin girls about me. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Campbell" <racsrv@attbi.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Annapolis Sailboat Show

Tod,

You are a man of great wisdom.

Bob Campbell Montgomery 17, #615 "Alina" Lodi, CA

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 3:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annapolis Sailboat Show

...

Tod, How did the P19 compare to the M17?

You trying to get me in trouble, Craig? *grin* My lips are sealed.

Tod

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Holy cow! ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:25 PM Subject: Maine sights This is one of the boats I saw on my Maine trip. Anchored next to her a couple of nights. Unfortunately, she spent the entire time on a mooring (even w/ people aboard). I got a picture of a guy standing on the main boom taking a picture of a woman seated on the sail at the gooseneck. http://www.eliteyacht.com/rebecca.htm Tod

March 2002 issue of Practical Sailor had a review of both. They liked the Seacook because it could hold larger pots, but it took twice the time of the Mini-Galley to boil a quart of water. http://www.practical-sailor.com/pub/28_5/features/4652-1.html I've got an old Sea Swing a friend gave to me that I'm trying to rig for propane operation instead of kerosene. I'm not sure where I'm going to mount it yet. Joe M17 #369 "Puff" -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 3:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: M_Boats: portable gimballed stove At present, I'm using one of those single burner stoves that screws onto the top of a propane bottle and has a plastic base that the bottle sits in. I like it except for the fact that it isn't gimballed for use while sailing or even in a sort of rough anchorage. I have to hang onto the pot with every passing powerboat. I only know of two portable gimballed stoves that would be good for use on our boats, the Forespar Mini Galley: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=14310 and the Force 10 Seacook: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=16791 .....they both cost the same, but I really don't know what the pros and cons are of each design. (Hey, maybe I ought to write to the makers to have them each explain to me the benefits of their design!). Has anyone on the list ever used one of these? Were there things about them that would be good to know? It looks like the Force 10 might accept a bigger variety of pots but might also not hold them as securely as the Forespar. Both disconnect for storage when not in use. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thanks, Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Hello Tod, I use a white gas stove because it sits lower than the propane bottle top stoves. I struggled with ways to keep pots from moving around on it and settled on a pair of metal hooks and a trio of small bungee cords. The hooks hold the pots onto the burner, and a pair of bungee cords holds the stove onto a board fitted to fit snugly on top of an open locker on the cockpit. I've found I almost always need a draft guard up too. Photo attached is an exaggerated roll - there's no way to keep the coffee in the pot if we are bouncing around that much. The board is on the boat so that is not in the picture. Stan

Todd, I used the mini-galley in an AMF2100 and it works well for hot soup, stew, or other one pot items but locating it so you can stir the pot in a small boat is difficult. I only used it in rough anchorages or for a quick hot water need (coffee or tea). I used my two burner camp stove most of the time. Doug "Seas the Day" M15 #310 PS- the pictures are nice! --- "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote: > At present, I'm using one of those single burner > stoves that screws onto the top of a > propane bottle and has a plastic base that the > bottle sits in. I like it except for the > fact that it isn't gimballed for use while sailing > or even in a sort of rough anchorage. > I have to hang onto the pot with every passing > powerboat. > > I only know of two portable gimballed stoves that > would be good for use on our > boats, > > the Forespar Mini Galley: > http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=14310 > and the Force 10 Seacook: > http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=16791 > > .....they both cost the same, but I really don't > know what the pros and cons are of each > design. (Hey, maybe I ought to write to the makers > to have them each explain to me > the benefits of their design!). Has anyone on the > list ever used one of these? Were there > things about them that would be good to know? It > looks like the Force 10 might accept > a bigger variety of pots but might also not hold > them as securely as the Forespar. Both > disconnect for storage when not in use. Does anyone > have any thoughts on the matter? > > Thanks, > > Tod > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

What you are describing sounds like it is pretty big for a M15... Are you sure you want to deal with something that takes up that much space? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: M_Boats: "do-it-yourself" portable gimballed stove?

In my mind's eye, I picture a portable box which contains a gimballed,

stock

two-burner propane camp-stove (Coleman?). I guess the inspiration would be a portable antique compass. I'm not exactly sure how I'd mount the stove inside the box, but I think I could study my gimballed oil lamp and figure something out. My biggest concern: I think the two-burner propane Coleman uses a fixed copper pipe for the propane bottle attachment and I would have to replace that pipe with a flexible hose fed through a slot in the box, so that the stove could move independent of its propane source. I could use this portable gimballed two-burner propane box-stove (the HONSHELL2000?) inside, on a settee, or outside, on a cockpit bench.

Besides the propane hose, can anyone suggest complications I haven't considered?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kelch" <doug_kelch@yahoo.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: portable gimballed stove

Todd,

I used the mini-galley in an AMF2100 and it works well for hot soup, stew, or other one pot items but locating it so you can stir the pot in a small boat is difficult.

I only used it in rough anchorages or for a quick hot water need (coffee or tea). I used my two burner camp stove most of the time.

Doug "Seas the Day" M15 #310

PS- the pictures are nice!

-----------------------------------------

htmills@bright.net

wrote: At present, I'm using one of those single burner stoves that screws onto the top of a propane bottle and has a plastic base that the bottle sits in. I like it except for the fact that it isn't gimballed for use while sailing or even in a sort of rough anchorage. I have to hang onto the pot with every passing powerboat. I only know of two portable gimballed stoves that would be good for use on our boats, the Forespar Mini Galley: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=14310 and the Force 10 Seacook: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=16791 .....they both cost the same, but I really don't know what the pros and cons are of each design. (Hey, maybe I ought to write to the makers to have them each explain to me the benefits of their design!). Has anyone on the list ever used one of these? Were there things about them that would be good to know? It looks like the Force 10 might accept a bigger variety of pots but might also not hold them as securely as the Forespar. Both disconnect for storage when not in use. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Thanks,

Tod

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Not only would it be big - but while it might be relatively easy to make a gimbal for a compass or even a one burner stove, think of the complications to adjust the balance or a pot of coffee on one burner and a pot of stew on the other - then help yourself to a cup of coffee while waiting for the stew to get hot enough (readjusting the gimbal) then stirring the stew and having the coffee in the pot start its own sloshing about - If you get one built, you really will deserve a patent on it. Stan

----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: M_Boats: "do-it-yourself" portable gimballed stove?

Ahhhh . . . Hadn't thought about differences in weight for whatever set on the burners . . . I think you just posed an insurmountable complication .

.

. I wonder how gimbaled stoves work on big boats?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Winarski" <winarski@cox.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 9:36 PM Subject: "do-it-yourself" portable gimballed stove?

Not only would it be big - but while it might be relatively easy to make a gimbal for a compass or even a one burner stove, think of the complications to adjust the balance or a pot of coffee on one burner and a pot of stew on the other - then help yourself to a cup of coffee while waiting for the stew to get hot enough (readjusting the gimbal) then stirring the stew and having the coffee in the pot start its own sloshing about -

If you get one built, you really will deserve a patent on it.

Stan

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

The box I'm proposing would contain a Coleman two-burner propane stove, the low flat kind that are made for car-camping. So the box would be a few inches bigger than the stove, whatever the stove's dimensions (too lazy to look it up on the net at the moment). I wouldn't make the base any larger than that few extra inches the box would occupy, but I would mount rubber to the bottom of the box. Offhand, I don't remember the Coleman two-burners being especially big: I note that others are using them sans gimbaled contrivances. Maybe I'm underestimating how big I would have to make the box that would contain the stove. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 7:36 PM Subject: "do-it-yourself" portable gimballed stove? I agree, since to be stable in anything more than very small waves would require a comparatively large base. ---------- What you are describing sounds like it is pretty big for a M15... Are you sure you want to deal with something that takes up that much space? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: "do-it-yourself" portable gimballed stove? In my mind's eye, I picture a portable box which contains a gimballed, stock two-burner propane camp-stove (Coleman?). I guess the inspiration would be a portable antique compass. I'm not exactly sure how I'd mount the stove inside the box, but I think I could study my gimballed oil lamp and figure something out. My biggest concern: I think the two-burner propane Coleman uses a fixed copper pipe for the propane bottle attachment and I would have to replace that pipe with a flexible hose fed through a slot in the box, so that the stove could move independent of its propane source. I could use this portable gimballed two-burner propane box-stove (the HONSHELL2000?) inside, on a settee, or outside, on a cockpit bench. Besides the propane hose, can anyone suggest complications I haven't considered? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kelch" <doug_kelch@yahoo.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: portable gimballed stove Todd, I used the mini-galley in an AMF2100 and it works well for hot soup, stew, or other one pot items but locating it so you can stir the pot in a small boat is difficult. I only used it in rough anchorages or for a quick hot water need (coffee or tea). I used my two burner camp stove most of the time. Doug Seas the Day M15 #310 PS- the pictures are nice! ----------------------------------------- htmills@bright.net wrote: At present, I'm using one of those single burner stoves that screws onto the top of a propane bottle and has a plastic base that the bottle sits in. I like it except for the fact that it isn't gimballed for use while sailing or even in a sort of rough anchorage. I have to hang onto the pot with every passing powerboat. I only know of two portable gimballed stoves that would be good for use on our boats, the Forespar Mini Galley: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=14310 and the Force 10 Seacook: http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=16791 .....they both cost the same, but I really don't know what the pros and cons are of each design. (Hey, maybe I ought to write to the makers to have them each explain to me the benefits of their design!). Has anyone on the list ever used one of these? Were there things about them that would be good to know? It looks like the Force 10 might accept a bigger variety of pots but might also not hold them as securely as the Forespar. Both disconnect for storage when not in use. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thanks, Tod

I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stoves and the big bang Scott, While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice. I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch. The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor. The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Re: M_Boats: Stoves and the big bang Gary, Actually, I usually cook in the cabin, especially in the morning when it's cool. It seems more convenient to me, since I can reach everything I need, except the fridge (the cooler lives at the stern end of the cockpit, under the tiller), while sitting over the potti. And I can put things away as I'm finished with them. In hot weather, of course, it's preferable to use the cockpit. It's more likely that I will need to heat water for coffee than make dinner. The fumes are minimal, and flames aren't a problem. The stove sits over one of the bunk lockers, after stowing the cushion in the forepeak, and my kitchen box over the other locker. A couple of plastic boxes of food and equipment live under the cockpit, reachable only from the cabin, since both cockpit lockers on my boat are the shallow, sealed variety. It works for me. I've never tried cooking in any kind of rough conditions. A stray powerboat wake occasionally, but nothing more. Since I sail alone, I've thought about permanently removing one cabin cushion and building a "galley" in it's place. Maybe if I had more time to spend on the water . . . Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: November 22, 2002 3:14 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stoves and the big bang Bill: Do you cook in the M15 cabin with your Origo or just in the cockpit? Thanks. -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" on 2002-11-06 5:20 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote: I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stoves and the big bang Scott, While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice. I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch. The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor. The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle. Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

And the Origo never heats up enough to melt the plastic dishpan? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: stoves and the big bang stoves and the big bang Gary, Actually, I usually cook in the cabin, especially in the morning when it's cool. It seems more convenient to me, since I can reach everything I need, except the fridge (the cooler lives at the stern end of the cockpit, under the tiller), while sitting over the potti. And I can put things away as I'm finished with them. In hot weather, of course, it's preferable to use the cockpit. It's more likely that I will need to heat water for coffee than make dinner. The fumes are minimal, and flames aren't a problem. The stove sits over one of the bunk lockers, after stowing the cushion in the forepeak, and my kitchen box over the other locker. A couple of plastic boxes of food and equipment live under the cockpit, reachable only from the cabin, since both cockpit lockers on my boat are the shallow, sealed variety. It works for me. I've never tried cooking in any kind of rough conditions. A stray powerboat wake occasionally, but nothing more. Since I sail alone, I've thought about permanently removing one cabin cushion and building a "galley" in it's place. Maybe if I had more time to spend on the water . . . Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: November 22, 2002 3:14 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: stoves and the big bang Bill: Do you cook in the M15 cabin with your Origo or just in the cockpit? Thanks. -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" on 2002-11-06 5:20 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote: I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: stoves and the big bang Scott, While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice. I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch. The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor. The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle. Tod

Bill: Thanks. I have the stove, the dishpan, and a galley Œtoolbox¹. I¹m retiring soon, so maybe now I¹ll have the time to use this stuff! -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" on 2002-11-23 11:54 AM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

I store it in the dishpan, to protect other items from the sharp corners and keep the stove from getting scratched up. I remove it for cooking. But you probably could cook with it in the dishpan. The lower part doesn't get hot; only the grate and top. It cools enough to be put away in about 5 minutes.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: November 23, 2002 2:15 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: stoves and the big bang

And the Origo never heats up enough to melt the plastic dishpan?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: stoves and the big bang

stoves and the big bang Gary,

Actually, I usually cook in the cabin, especially in the morning when it's cool. It seems more convenient to me, since I can reach everything I need, except the fridge (the cooler lives at the stern end of the cockpit, under the tiller), while sitting over the potti. And I can put things away as I'm finished with them. In hot weather, of course, it's preferable to use the cockpit.

It's more likely that I will need to heat water for coffee than make dinner.

The fumes are minimal, and flames aren't a problem. The stove sits over one of the bunk lockers, after stowing the cushion in the forepeak, and my kitchen box over the other locker. A couple of plastic boxes of food and equipment live under the cockpit, reachable only from the cabin, since both cockpit lockers on my boat are the shallow, sealed variety. It works for me.

I've never tried cooking in any kind of rough conditions. A stray powerboat wake occasionally, but nothing more.

Since I sail alone, I've thought about permanently removing one cabin cushion and building a "galley" in it's place. Maybe if I had more time to spend on the water . . .

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: November 22, 2002 3:14 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: stoves and the big bang

Bill: Do you cook in the M15 cabin with your Origo or just in the cockpit? Thanks.

-- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla"

on 2002-11-06 5:20 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: stoves and the big bang

Scott,

While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice.

I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch.

The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor.

The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle.

Tod

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BILL! Bob Bill Riker wrote:

Gary,

Enjoy!!

I'm only a few years behind you (into retirement). I better be, I hit the big 6-0 yesterday!

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: December 02, 2002 7:05 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: stoves and the big bang

Bill: Thanks. I have the stove, the dishpan, and a galley 'toolbox'. I'm retiring soon, so maybe now I'll have the time to use this stuff!

-- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla"

on 2002-11-23 11:54 AM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

I store it in the dishpan, to protect other items from the sharp corners and keep the stove from getting scratched up. I remove it for cooking. But you probably could cook with it in the dishpan. The lower part doesn't get hot; only the grate and top. It cools enough to be put away in about 5 minutes.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: November 23, 2002 2:15 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: stoves and the big bang

And the Origo never heats up enough to melt the plastic dishpan?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: stoves and the big bang

stoves and the big bang Gary,

Actually, I usually cook in the cabin, especially in the morning when it's cool. It seems more convenient to me, since I can reach everything I need, except the fridge (the cooler lives at the stern end of the cockpit, under the tiller), while sitting over the potti. And I can put things away as I'm finished with them. In hot weather, of course, it's preferable to use the cockpit.

It's more likely that I will need to heat water for coffee than make dinner.

The fumes are minimal, and flames aren't a problem. The stove sits over one of the bunk lockers, after stowing the cushion in the forepeak, and my kitchen box over the other locker. A couple of plastic boxes of food and equipment live under the cockpit, reachable only from the cabin, since both cockpit lockers on my boat are the shallow, sealed variety. It works for me.

I've never tried cooking in any kind of rough conditions. A stray powerboat wake occasionally, but nothing more.

Since I sail alone, I've thought about permanently removing one cabin cushion and building a "galley" in it's place. Maybe if I had more time to spend on the water . . .

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: November 22, 2002 3:14 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: stoves and the big bang

Bill: Do you cook in the M15 cabin with your Origo or just in the cockpit? Thanks.

-- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla"

on 2002-11-06 5:20 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: stoves and the big bang

Scott,

While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice.

I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch.

The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor.

The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle.

Tod

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Bill: Happy birthday! Did 60 feel any different than 59? Senior discounts are nice! --Gary on 2002-12-03 6:13 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

Gary,

Enjoy!!

I'm only a few years behind you (into retirement). I better be, I hit the big 6-0 yesterday! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: December 02, 2002 7:05 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: stoves and the big bang

Bill: Thanks. I have the stove, the dishpan, and a galley Œtoolbox¹. I¹m retiring soon, so maybe now I¹ll have the time to use this stuff!

-- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla"

on 2002-11-23 11:54 AM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

...

I store it in the dishpan, to protect other items from the sharp corners and keep the stove from getting scratched up. I remove it for cooking. But you probably could cook with it in the dishpan. The lower part doesn't get hot; only the grate and top. It cools enough to be put away in about 5 minutes.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: November 23, 2002 2:15 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: stoves and the big bang

And the Origo never heats up enough to melt the plastic dishpan?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: stoves and the big bang

stoves and the big bang Gary,

Actually, I usually cook in the cabin, especially in the morning when it's cool. It seems more convenient to me, since I can reach everything I need, except the fridge (the cooler lives at the stern end of the cockpit, under the tiller), while sitting over the potti. And I can put things away as I'm finished with them. In hot weather, of course, it's preferable to use the cockpit.

It's more likely that I will need to heat water for coffee than make dinner.

The fumes are minimal, and flames aren't a problem. The stove sits over one of the bunk lockers, after stowing the cushion in the forepeak, and my kitchen box over the other locker. A couple of plastic boxes of food and equipment live under the cockpit, reachable only from the cabin, since both cockpit lockers on my boat are the shallow, sealed variety. It works for me.

I've never tried cooking in any kind of rough conditions. A stray powerboat wake occasionally, but nothing more.

Since I sail alone, I've thought about permanently removing one cabin cushion and building a "galley" in it's place. Maybe if I had more time to spend on the water . . .

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gary M. Hyde Sent: November 22, 2002 3:14 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: stoves and the big bang

Bill: Do you cook in the M15 cabin with your Origo or just in the cockpit? Thanks.

-- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla"

on 2002-11-06 5:20 PM, Bill Riker at wriker@mindspring.com wrote:

I love my Origo. To migitate the sharp corners, I keep it in a plastic dishpan. There is enough room around it for the potholder a butane lighter.

Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: stoves and the big bang

Scott,

While I haven't actually used one of those Origos, I have seen some of the other M-boaters using them on the rendezvous' and I agree, they do seem very nice.

I don't keep my propane cylinders in the cabin for the very reason you cited. The risk of a leaking valve is very real (just had a leaking one the other day) so when I'm not using them, they go in the wet locker on my 17 with a low vent to the atmosphere through the transom. If I had a 15 I'd probably make the switch.

The only thing I've seen about the Origo that I didn't particularly care for were the rather sharp edges on it, but that's pretty minor.

The burn time you list for a quart of fuel is very comparable to what I get with a 1# propane bottle.

Tod

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I'm thinking congratulations are in order for Bob and Jerry on completing the project. Even for them, I'm sure this was not easy to pull together. She is a fine looking boat! Has she sailed yet? Howard

Looks great, Rich How long does it take to set it up with one person? Tod Tod...........Half as long as it takes with 2 people...........heheheh. Lenny

That was an interesting story about "really small" boat cruising. However, I thought the Marquesas' were about 1000 miles northeast of Tahiti. Are there two island groups that share the same name? If they went to the "other" Marquesas' in a Sea Pearl that would really be impressive. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 2:10 PM Subject: M_Boats: Keys/Dry Tortugas trip...... Here's a story about a trip to the Marquesas. No photos. http://www.marine-concepts.com/stories/marq.html _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Thanks, that eliminates the first choice (least expensive) place since it only has a bit over 7 feet at the door. I may just buy a steel shed/car port and set it up in the back yard. Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 9:40 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: How high ? Hi, Smitty I *roughly* measured 8'-6" from the top of the mast sitting on the bow pulpit to the dirt floor of my barn. If you slung the mast underneath the pulpit you could gain in the neighborhood of 5"-6". I'd look for something no less than 9', 10' would be better so you wouldn't have to watch or fool around with the mast. If this is just for off-season storage (in and out once a year), around here in Ohio frequently county fairgrounds offer reasonable storage. ----------

Can anyone tell me how high a M-17 is on the trailer? I'm hopping to buy a 17 this spring if all goes well and will need to find out about storage building entrance height. Thanks, Smitty Windsurfers Do It Standing Up !

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Tod, I second the Milkman powdered milk suggestion. It's available at most grocery stores here on the best coast. I've also used it on backpacking trips and it is way above any other brand of powdered milk I've tried. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 Grace

Tod: I never cared much for powdered milk either, until I learned how to mix it. Mix it up at least the night before you want to use it, then let it chill in the cooler overnight. Done right, I can hardly tell it from the real stuff. I use the individual sealed packages that each make one quart of milk. Howard

I think I may have posted a link for this same boat a few months back: If I remember right, the pic then showed it in the water. Very cool hull color. One thing I'm curious about, does Hooper's use the phrase "self righting" correctly? For instance, to mean that it has ballast down low so is more like to regain its feet without help than, say, a Laser? I don't know if I've seen the phrase "self righting" previously to describe the 17'. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:12 PM Subject: Minnesota 17 spotted saw this ad at Hoopers web page: http://www.hoopersyachts.com/usedboats_one.cfm?usedboatid=361

No problem with a re-post: It's a unique Monty. Your GASP makes sense. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:08 PM Subject: Minnesota 17 spotted Sorry if that's a re-post. I don't know if my understanding is a GASP....Generally Accepted Sailing Principle....:o) but I take the term to mean that if a boat is "knocked down" with it's mast horizontal or possibly touching the water that it will right itself. The unballasted dinghies I've sailed all seemed to want to go on over at that point unless the crew is doing something like standing on the centerboard. Tod ---------- I think I may have posted a link for this same boat a few months back: If I remember right, the pic then showed it in the water. Very cool hull color. One thing I'm curious about, does Hooper's use the phrase "self righting" correctly? For instance, to mean that it has ballast down low so is more like to regain its feet without help than, say, a Laser? I don't know if I've seen the phrase "self righting" previously to describe the 17'. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:12 PM Subject: Minnesota 17 spotted saw this ad at Hoopers web page: http://www.hoopersyachts.com/usedboats_one.cfm?usedboatid=361

Tod: I am interested. I plan on mooring Halcyon but leaving the rudder and tiller in the cockpit. Maiki ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: M_Boats: M-17 rudder cover Hello all, I'll be dropping Busca's rudder (the approx 6' high full-depth one) and tiller off at my favorite canvas shop tomorrow for a quote on a heavy-duty cover for it. What I envision is a heavy cover with a padded bottom (1/2" closed cell foam between layers of cloth) with a velcro "fly" on the front for gudgeon access and extending up and over the tiller too with the "fly" continuing along the underside of the rudder. The rudder will be installable/removable without removing it from the cover....just take the rudder and tiller assembly from the bed of the truck and carry it back to the transom where I unzip it's fly and mount it on the transom, then slide the cover off. With a padded bottom I can sit it down on the pavement without dinging it. If this sounds like something you'd like for your 17, drop me a note and maybe we can get a bit of a group discount. I'm sure that once he has the first pieces cut out then making a second one would be much easier. Tod Mills M17 #408 "BuscaBrisas" _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

That's perfect, Tod, thanks! One more question: In order to pop-rivet the bale, would I have to have something inside the boom against which to hammer the rivet, so that the rivet would flatten on both ends? Thanks again, Craig p.s. Yes, I sail an M17, '84 #389. ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: Halyard Blocks, Boom Bale Hi, Craig You sail a 17, right? I'd just use the spinnaker halyard for your sock. Forestay on the lower of the two pins on the forward side of your crane (I think that's what that casting is called; someone please correct me if my nomenclature is wrong). Block on the upper one for the spinnaker halyard. Then, for the topping lift, I just put a small block on the backstay pin. I put a nice one-handed hook on one end and tied the other end to an eyestrap that was existing on the mast. The length is such that if that's all I do with the topping lift the boom hangs low but doesn't hit anything. Then there is enough slack to put it on a small cleat for fine-tuning. As for the boom bale, I've never installed one but all of them that I've seen were pop-riveted on: drill some holes (argh!) and pop-rivet away... Hope that helps, Tod ---------- I'd still like to know where to locate halyard blocks for: a. A sunbrella cover that I will hoist up to the head of the mast to cover my furled genoa. b. A topping lift. Also, I am moving my traveler to the transom: Anyone know how to add a boom bale? Thanks!

West Marine carries stainless steel pop rivets. I used them to attach my boom vang t-slot and topping lift cheek blocks. They are easy to use and seem to hold up just fine. I suspect that the stainless pop rivets are probably stronger than aluminum pop rivets Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco"

harborfreight.com sells a blind rivet (pop rivet) gun with four different sized nose pieces for different sized rivets for $6.99. Item #07356-OBBA. It is almost identical to the pop rivet gun I have used for many years. It isn't industrial grade, but it is more than serviceable for the occasional home (or boat) handyman... and it is cheap! Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco"

Thanks, everyone, for the excellent info on boom bails and pop-rivets! You've been a tremendous help. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Kidd" <jk@yosemite.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:33 AM Subject: Boom Bale, Genoa Cover Maybe the item number is 0BBA... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Kidd" <jk@yosemite.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:16 PM Subject: Boom Bale, Genoa Cover harborfreight.com sells a blind rivet (pop rivet) gun with four different sized nose pieces for different sized rivets for $6.99. Item #07356-OBBA. It is almost identical to the pop rivet gun I have used for many years. It isn't industrial grade, but it is more than serviceable for the occasional home (or boat) handyman... and it is cheap! Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco"

My memory is fuzzy, but I recall an excellent broadside of Busca under sail from one of the Chesapeake collections on the MSOG site . . . Showed the anchor-roller very clearly . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 7:21 PM Subject: photos Steve, I know I have a picture of the bowsprit/anchor roller somewhere as well as some of Storm Petrel flying her asymetrical (not REAL close up). The question is where. I'll take my photo cd's in to work and see if I can find them (still using old computer...ordered new computer today!) Tod

Too cool!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: fine form Here's a link to the pic of which Tod was speaking. It wasn't attached to the email I received, but the link is on the MSOG site under: Boat Owners Photos/Links to M-Photos on Other Sites. It was taken on 6/12/2001 by Tod on San Domingo Creek, the back entrance to St. Michaels, MD. http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/remotesteering.jpg Proof that even a short-shaft Honda does well with the crew amidships, in flat water. The motor is on the original motor mount. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: July 10, 2893 6:44 PM To: >Mboats< Subject: fine form Here's a textbook illustration of *fine* motoring form. You will note the forward position of the helmsman and the minimal wake generated despite an estimated speed of 3.5 knots (how's that sound, Bill?). Steering is accomplished via lines to the tiller. Also note that the motoring is occurring during a state of glassy calm where all steerage had been lost. The outboard was being used only as a last resort by the purist at the helm :o) I have some photos of Storm Petrel's asymetrical spinnaker and Busca's anchor roller too but just need to get them uploaded (with the work computer, hopefully tomorrow, I've been out of town for a couple of days). Tod

:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: ">Mboats<" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:05 PM Subject: Factory Boot Stripes -- Marking The Waterline . . . More This paragraph begs the question, "How do Jerry and Bob mark the waterline for new boats offered with boot stripes?" I have been only half paying attention to this exchange because my boat has a factory boot stripe and I figure it's an infallible guide for bottom paint and new boot stripe paint, so how do the professionals do it, especially in a mold? Hmmm. I can think of one way you could mark a waterline in a mold.... Assuming the mold is in two halves you could calk the seam, fill it up to the proper level with water, and then mark it. Somehow, though, I kind of doubt that's how it's done. :-) Perhaps Bob or Jerry will enlighten us. Tod

For the record, here's the exact quote from The Wind In The Willows. I always keep it handy to remind myself just why I love to spend so much time on my boat, either in or out of the water. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats... or with boats... In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular, and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much rather not." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind In The Willows

Joey, and all We must also consider that there is a therapy in 'messing about in boats'. I for one, find myself leaving all the 'other stuff' on the shore when I mess about in boats. So I believe messing about in boats is much better than seeing a therapist, like some people, right? So there is nothing to apologize for, right?? The small of fresh coffee and breakfast over the harbor waters at first light, Or a friendly offshore breeze that helps you enjoy the day, Or Armchair memories of all the good sailing days and good friends. All are the good things about messing about in boats. Thanks Joey for the original poem. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: M_Boats: MIAB - The Wind In The Willows

Excellent, Joe, thanks! Words to live by . . . Honestly . . . I don't

apologize for the time and money I

spend on boating because I genuinely think it's a worthier pursuit than many of the other activities that occupy my life . . . Call me irresponsible, but that's my value-system . . . :-) --Craig

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Kidd" <jk@yosemite.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:17 PM Subject: MIAB - The Wind In The Willows

For the record, here's the exact quote from The Wind In The Willows. I always keep it handy to remind myself just why I love to spend so much time on my boat, either in or out of the water.

Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco"

There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats... or with boats... In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular, and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much rather not."

-- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind In The Willows

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