May 2009 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Research
by edflorence＠yahoo.com 27 May '09

27 May '09

Hi All- I have been following this group for a couple of years, but this is my first post. Jerry's call for ideas for a M16 is too good to resist. I have been an M15 owner for years and a fan of the boat for even longer. A search of the user's group archives will turn up some of my enthusiastic postings to the old mailing list back in its early days. By way of introduction, I am Ed, from North Idaho and through the '90s I owned M15 #342 , finally selling her to Tom Smith who changed her name from "Whistle" to "Chukar" and then sailed her to fame on the front page of the Montgomery Sailboat website, where she can currently be seen. Recently I acquired M15 # 180 and am getting her ready for a season of sailing on the big lakes of the pacific NW. I chose a 15 again, versus a 17, for the same reasons I chose a 15 the first time, namely for the ease of single-handed rigging and sailing and the ease of towing. I think the 17 is a great boat and have sailed on a friend's many times. But the 15 is just easier to take to distant lakes, and that is a big selling point with me. Now, if there had been a 16 available, I probably would have gone for that. From the discussion so far, it seems the 16 will incorporate the best of both worlds, and that would be great. Lots of good ideas have been presented so far, but maybe I can add something to the discussion. What I would like to see in an M16... 1) A back stay. Mostly for the ease of rigging a topping lift. My 15's have running masthead topping lifts, which are fine, but a topping lift off the backstay would be more convenient. 2) grab rails on the house roof. 3) re-designed cabin windows. Maybe even ports that open. They could be screened on the inside and have clear, watertight hatches that could be dogged down for rain or rough going. This would avoid the need for a venting hatch through the deck. Even if they didn't open, the cabin windows need a more traditional look to go with the molded lapstrake. As practical and seaworthy as they are, the M boats are still "character" boats and I would like to see that emphasized. 4) A little more external ballast would be nice. Maybe go from 33% of the displacement to closer to 40%. While I have never knocked the 15 all the way down, I did broach once hard enough to bend the cb pin. OK, I was actually trying to surf on 3+ foot Lake Pend Oreille chop, so it was mostly my fault...(I did get it to surf though!)...fortunately the main sheet was in my hand and not on the cleat, so I avoided a big catastrophe. Still, even if my boat surfing days are over, a bit more stability would feel nice. Perhaps the additional drag in the water could be offset by increasing the jib area with a full height jib a la the 17. Thanks for the chance to contribute, and I look forward to the unveiling of the M16! Sail on! Ed Idaho Panhandle M15 #180 "Little Wing"

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more on Bolger...
by htmills＠zoominternet.net 27 May '09

27 May '09

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_145224017.html?keyword=sec ondarystory

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For sail: like new jib for M15 Eqyption cloth sail
by Sandra Anton 27 May '09

27 May '09

For sale. Just purchased used 2006 M15 and having new sail cut for roller CDI roller furler. Serious offers please. sailrsandy(a)yahoo.com

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Phil Bolger
by John and DesAnne Hippe 26 May '09

26 May '09

Phil's death is a great loss for our sailing community. His work has been prolific and transformational. We will all miss his contributions to the sport we love. John

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Phil Bolger dead
by htmills＠zoominternet.net 26 May '09

26 May '09

Phil Bolger dead Sunday, May 24th at age 81 (by his own hand). Obituary by his wife. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60397 Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas

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End boom sheeting and boom tent
by eisenee＠aol.com 26 May '09

26 May '09

Hi All About a month ago I promised pictures of my end boom main sheet but since have forgotten who I promised it to. Also since then my lovely bride has made a really nice boom tent for our M17 and we can share pics of that if anyone is interested. Just drop us an e-mail and we will get them out to you. Eldor M17 Motu iti **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377034x1201454326/aol?redir=htt… MaystepsfooterNO62)

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Re: M_Boats: mast configuration
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 25 May '09

25 May '09

A Boltroper here - If the gate and tack pin are properly aligned the bolt rope will all but feed itself, with VERY little assistance. (I had a suit of Norths or Hoods that had teflon tapes woven into the boltrope covering - they just flew into the gate.) My sail slot entry (gate) has a prefeeder type piece installed on each side of the slot, this is I think the key to mine working well - Buzz Ballenger built mine after I asked for all kinds of things to be done "my" way, he went ahead and did a SLPENDID job- probably tactfully ignoring my 'advice/requests'. All my metal masts (don't hold yer breath) will come from Ballenger Spars! GO In a message dated 5/23/2009 7:50:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, seagray(a)embarqmail.com writes: Hey Botropers. Don't you run into similar issues when you reef? That is, when you haul back to full sail, don't you have to coax the sail back into the groove?? Just curious. Mine main came with slugs. I have two slot stoppers that I work with. One to keep the boom at rest and the other to keep the slugs from accidently falling out. Not a perfect solution and certainly not the ease and convenience of the set up on my NorSea. Although I did like the idea raised by someone earlier that used bungee cord. Bob E, if you are viewing this, do you think you can provide the name of the mast maker and perhaps I can get them to make a removeable dam. Have a great weekend. Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: <GILASAILR(a)aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 12:45 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: mast configuration > Bill, > 100% mainsail luff engagement - bolt ropes rule! > > Another boltroper and d*mn proud of it! > > GO > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/22/2009 6:55:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > wriker(a)mindspring.com writes: > > I am going to count this whole hassle as another checkmark in the > boltrope > column. > > Bill Riker > M15 - #184 > Storm Petrel > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tom > Jenkins > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 12:28 PM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > Subject: Re: M_Boats: mast configuration > > Dave, > > I agree 2-3" is a little low if you are rigging and unrigging often. How > about a short cutout just above where the boom rides, which in my boat is > about a foot up? With a track stop above the opening, you could drop the > sail and secure it without it shooting out of the slot, or let it all run > out for unrigging with some turns of a thumbscrew. As for reefing, my > cringles reach the boom over the pile of sail, but there is probably lots > of > > variability among years and between the 15 and 17. > There was a great thread about modifications to the mast a number of > months > ago, so I will seek them out. > > Tom Jenkins > M17 Scintilla > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:44 PM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: mast configuration > > > SWEET PEA's (hull #375, 1983 build) mast has the 'opening' set very low > ... > 2-3" from the cabin-top. i find it anoying thus far as i must leave ALL > slugs in when reefing (so the reef is set a bit 'high' IMO) and i must > load > the sail and then the boom ... this is a big PITA. the setup adds about 5 > minutes to the rigging process. > > SCRED, my M15, has the opening much higher - at least 18" above the > cabin-top. this allowed for putting the boom in place and then loading > the > main easily and quickly. reefing was also a cleaner operation. > > it seems at times many boats leave jerry's and bob's shop with 'own > custom > options'. > > > dave scobie > M17 #375 - sweet pea (http://www.m17-375.webs.com) > M15 #288 - SCRED (for sale, http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred > > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Tom Jenkins <tjenk(a)gte.net> wrote: > > > > Hello all, > I assume the cutout on the M17 mast slot is designed to accomodate a > boltrope main (by both size and location), but I find that it is not > perfect > > for slugs. Among other things, one of my slugs falls right in the cutout > on > a double reef. Is there a reason why the cutout could not be, say, 8-12" > from the mast bottom, assuming most newer boats come with slug-type > sails? > > Thanks, > Tom Jenkins > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > **************A strong credit score is 700 or above. See Yours in Just 2 > Easy Steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585033x1201462753/aol?redir=htt… > cd=Maystrongfooter52309NO115) > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=htt… ExcfooterNO62)

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Re: M_Boats: mast configuration
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 25 May '09

25 May '09

ABoHlute ly !! And the boom should be bitchin' too! I'm thinkin a deep rectangular section in carbon for my next one - maybe I will get all the mechanics worked out right on the next one. Cold drink launcher is giving me problems right now. GO In a message dated 5/23/2009 6:52:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, bownez(a)juno.com writes: GO wrote: 100% mainsail luff engagement - bolt ropes rule! Another boltroper and d*mn proud of it! I'm with you Gary! And now the next discussion, should the mainsail be loose footed? Bones ____________________________________________________________ Criminal Lawyers - Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOVoKYq8Q7XFNKGsVvSgLLMR57 08YVGhW5EAE3egOQO2T0L2hxNiI/ _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=htt… ExcfooterNO62)

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Re: M_Boats: research
by JAUICEO＠aol.com 25 May '09

25 May '09

Jerry, as an old M-15 owner, and proud of it, it was the fun of my life, a little small, but one of the best sailing little boats in the world. I only wish now I had a M-17 by you and I would be a happy sailor again. One suggestion I have on your new venture, would be, if you are not going to have a compression post under the mast, then design in a compression arch in the cabin area under the mast and distribute the mast load down to the side walls and bunk areas in order to strengthen the cabin roof. Over the years I have been yearning for another Montgomery Boat (17) I have noticed that on the older 17s there are surface cracks developing where the Cabin joins the Deck in the areas of the Mast. I believe this could be some side loading being distributed down to the cabin/deck intersection. Other than this I would buy a good used M-17 in a heartbeat. Thanks for your time. John O In a message dated 5/23/2009 7:31:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: OK- got the canoe camping out of my system for awhile. I've got about two hours before the Lakers-Nuggets game (go Denver!) so I'll flap my fingers for awhile. This will be somewhat disjointed, probably. (Pun intended) Balsa Core- Yes, it has problems with dryrot if you get careless and don't keep the leaks in the bedding sealed, but there is nothing like it for stiffness with light weight. Ever notice that there are seldom stress cracks in the corners and angles on Montgomery decks? Balsa core. Sitting headroom- The concensus is that sitting headroom is important. I think we can do this. If we add 6" or so to the length of the house and lengthen and lower the bench aft of the v-berth it should work. Lowering the bench will cut down on storage some, so it's a compromise. For those of you who have sat below on a 23, it BARELY has sitting headroom under the side deck. I think the best we could do in a 16 would be to make it like the 17, where you have sitting headroom if you don't care about banging the back of your head against the side of the house. Some of you liked the quarter berth type interior, which can give good sitting headroom, but I've heard praises about the 15 interior as opposed to the Compac 16. I don't remember ever crawling into a comPac berth, but I've heard comments that it's difficult to roll over, as is the M-17. A couple of you sent links to X brand boats with a desirable interior and I haven't looked at them yet but I will. The sitting headroom thing is such a compromise; to get height over a quarterberth you usually need to raise the cockpit benches too much, and the geometry of the cockpit is really important, at least to me. Also remember that true sitting headroom is next to impossible without raising the freeboard, because you still have to get under the side decks. That's the reason for a flush deck cabin. like the Cal and Ensenada 20. Ugly, in my mind. Cockpit drainage- We had trouble with the 17, and when I retooled the 17 in about '82 I raised the cockpit 3/4", a nd put in a wetlocker. That helped but didn't really cure the problem. I really don't know how high the sosle is above thbe waterline, but it's several inches, believe it or not. I'm pretty sure that the 15 sole is 3" over the waterline, and it's better than the 17 but not perfect. One thing, the 15 cockpit angles forward and the 17 angles aft. In the 17, the wetlocker helped a lot because about 90% of the water, if pooped, would drain out pretty fast because of the two 2" holes a couple of inches off the sole. Rudder- Yes, I'd plan to do a kickup rudder, similar to the 15. If doing it over, I'd put the same thing on a 17 but i was afraid of losing a rudder now nd then, which happens to some of the competition. Note that Mike Mann 's 15 that he sailed to HI had a slightly shortened 17 rudder. The rig- Years ago I helped sail a Freedom 40 and the next smaller- I think a 34- from Newport to King Harbor, which is about 30 miles or so, mostly upwind. The gal that saialed with me was far more experienced than me on that type of boat, but upwind we just couldn't get the boat moving. We over sheeted, undersheeted, but nothing worked and we finally gave up and mixed a drink. Towards the last, when we eased off to a close reach the boat finally came alive and boomed right along. I think nothing is as effective as a good old Marconi sloop rig; a main and a jib. Without things like rotating masts and wing masts, nothing goes upwind like a sloop rig. Gaff rigs are kind of neat, an d if Doug Kelch lived around here you can bet that I'd be trying to weasel myself a ride. Same with cat ketches, but I want my boat to go well upwind and I'm willing to stumble over lots of wire and turnbuckles. Offset Centerboard- Hmmm. Getting the trunk out from under the cockpit sounds great, but how much would it slow the boat down? It's a given that it would, but how much? For years, whenm I lived in Newport Beach, I sailed Sabots everyh Wed nite at ou club. The sabot, as sailed in S CA, has a leeboard. We sailed the boat flat on the starboard tack and heeled over on port. The sabot was really a terrible little boat (an 8' pram) but was great fun to race because everybody had the same problem. Another thing, we made our little dinghies both ways; either a leeboard or a daggerboard. The daggerboard boats would KILL the leeboard boats upwind. I wonder if the main reason is that the turbulence between the leeboard and the side of the boat did something weird. I'd really be afraid that something like that would happen between the CB and the keel. In the new boat I'm lean ing towards a heavier, more efficient centerboard, more like te original 17's and yes, it would need a winch but yes, it would go faster upwind. Compression Post- I'd opt for no post, like the 15. It would take some serious stiffening, probably with carbon fiber, but could be done. I've done lots of work with carbon in 20 lb racing canoes and kayaks (see huki.com) and have it wired. I hate weight aloft because it's anti-ballast, and I'm sure that we could do it with no more weight than a post. Bridge Deck- Bitch, bitch, bitch! A wide bridge deck encroaches on the footroom of the crew, who just might want to sit up against the house, keeping the weight forward. A high bridgedeck does cut down on getting water below, but it makes a longer step to go below. I think the 15 is pretty well thought out in this regard. Just enough of a deck to make a place for the mainsheet cleat an d a cleat for the CB. Perspective of size- Remember that this project is probably a 16. A 16 would make a roomier and better performing 15. An 18 or 19 would make for a roomier and better performing 17, but it's not enough more room to allow a settee. Years ago I did some serious drawing on a 20, which barely would allow for a settee. It was so long ago that Lyle spent some time with me looking over my shoulder before he started loosing his vision. I'm not even sure that I still have those drawings; if I do they're in a box somewhere in the shop. My personal preference of these boats might be the 18 or 19, just because it would go faster and make it easier to win races! Any more suggestions or comments, keep them coming! jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=htt… ExcfooterNO62)

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Fwd: research
by JAUICEO＠aol.com 25 May '09

25 May '09

____________________________________ From: JAUICEO(a)aol.com Reply-to: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Sent: 5/25/2009 2:58:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time Subj: Re: M_Boats: research Jerry, as an old M-15 owner, and proud of it, it was the fun of my life, a little small, but one of the best sailing little boats in the world. I only wish now I had a M-17 by you and I would be a happy sailor again. One suggestion I have on your new venture, would be, if you are not going to have a compression post under the mast, then design in a compression arch in the cabin area under the mast and distribute the mast load down to the side walls and bunk areas in order to strengthen the cabin roof. Over the years I have been yearning for another Montgomery Boat (17) I have noticed that on the older 17s there are surface cracks developing where the Cabin joins the Deck in the areas of the Mast. I believe this could be some side loading being distributed down to the cabin/deck intersection. Other than this I would buy a good used M-17 in a heartbeat. Thanks for your time. John O In a message dated 5/23/2009 7:31:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: OK- got the canoe camping out of my system for awhile. I've got about two hours before the Lakers-Nuggets game (go Denver!) so I'll flap my fingers for awhile. This will be somewhat disjointed, probably. (Pun intended) Balsa Core- Yes, it has problems with dryrot if you get careless and don't keep the leaks in the bedding sealed, but there is nothing like it for stiffness with light weight. Ever notice that there are seldom stress cracks in the corners and angles on Montgomery decks? Balsa core. Sitting headroom- The concensus is that sitting headroom is important. I think we can do this. If we add 6" or so to the length of the house and lengthen and lower the bench aft of the v-berth it should work. Lowering the bench will cut down on storage some, so it's a compromise. For those of you who have sat below on a 23, it BARELY has sitting headroom under the side deck. I think the best we could do in a 16 would be to make it like the 17, where you have sitting headroom if you don't care about banging the back of your head against the side of the house. Some of you liked the quarter berth type interior, which can give good sitting headroom, but I've heard praises about the 15 interior as opposed to the Compac 16. I don't remember ever crawling into a comPac berth, but I've heard comments that it's difficult to roll over, as is the M-17. A couple of you sent links to X brand boats with a desirable interior and I haven't looked at them yet but I will. The sitting headroom thing is such a compromise; to get height over a quarterberth you usually need to raise the cockpit benches too much, and the geometry of the cockpit is really important, at least to me. Also remember that true sitting headroom is next to impossible without raising the freeboard, because you still have to get under the side decks. That's the reason for a flush deck cabin. like the Cal and Ensenada 20. Ugly, in my mind. Cockpit drainage- We had trouble with the 17, and when I retooled the 17 in about '82 I raised the cockpit 3/4", a nd put in a wetlocker. That helped but didn't really cure the problem. I really don't know how high the sosle is above thbe waterline, but it's several inches, believe it or not. I'm pretty sure that the 15 sole is 3" over the waterline, and it's better than the 17 but not perfect. One thing, the 15 cockpit angles forward and the 17 angles aft. In the 17, the wetlocker helped a lot because about 90% of the water, if pooped, would drain out pretty fast because of the two 2" holes a couple of inches off the sole. Rudder- Yes, I'd plan to do a kickup rudder, similar to the 15. If doing it over, I'd put the same thing on a 17 but i was afraid of losing a rudder now nd then, which happens to some of the competition. Note that Mike Mann 's 15 that he sailed to HI had a slightly shortened 17 rudder. The rig- Years ago I helped sail a Freedom 40 and the next smaller- I think a 34- from Newport to King Harbor, which is about 30 miles or so, mostly upwind. The gal that saialed with me was far more experienced than me on that type of boat, but upwind we just couldn't get the boat moving. We over sheeted, undersheeted, but nothing worked and we finally gave up and mixed a drink. Towards the last, when we eased off to a close reach the boat finally came alive and boomed right along. I think nothing is as effective as a good old Marconi sloop rig; a main and a jib. Without things like rotating masts and wing masts, nothing goes upwind like a sloop rig. Gaff rigs are kind of neat, an d if Doug Kelch lived around here you can bet that I'd be trying to weasel myself a ride. Same with cat ketches, but I want my boat to go well upwind and I'm willing to stumble over lots of wire and turnbuckles. Offset Centerboard- Hmmm. Getting the trunk out from under the cockpit sounds great, but how much would it slow the boat down? It's a given that it would, but how much? For years, whenm I lived in Newport Beach, I sailed Sabots everyh Wed nite at ou club. The sabot, as sailed in S CA, has a leeboard. We sailed the boat flat on the starboard tack and heeled over on port. The sabot was really a terrible little boat (an 8' pram) but was great fun to race because everybody had the same problem. Another thing, we made our little dinghies both ways; either a leeboard or a daggerboard. The daggerboard boats would KILL the leeboard boats upwind. I wonder if the main reason is that the turbulence between the leeboard and the side of the boat did something weird. I'd really be afraid that something like that would happen between the CB and the keel. In the new boat I'm lean ing towards a heavier, more efficient centerboard, more like te original 17's and yes, it would need a winch but yes, it would go faster upwind. Compression Post- I'd opt for no post, like the 15. It would take some serious stiffening, probably with carbon fiber, but could be done. I've done lots of work with carbon in 20 lb racing canoes and kayaks (see huki.com) and have it wired. I hate weight aloft because it's anti-ballast, and I'm sure that we could do it with no more weight than a post. Bridge Deck- Bitch, bitch, bitch! A wide bridge deck encroaches on the footroom of the crew, who just might want to sit up against the house, keeping the weight forward. A high bridgedeck does cut down on getting water below, but it makes a longer step to go below. I think the 15 is pretty well thought out in this regard. Just enough of a deck to make a place for the mainsheet cleat an d a cleat for the CB. Perspective of size- Remember that this project is probably a 16. A 16 would make a roomier and better performing 15. An 18 or 19 would make for a roomier and better performing 17, but it's not enough more room to allow a settee. Years ago I did some serious drawing on a 20, which barely would allow for a settee. It was so long ago that Lyle spent some time with me looking over my shoulder before he started loosing his vision. I'm not even sure that I still have those drawings; if I do they're in a box somewhere in the shop. My personal preference of these boats might be the 18 or 19, just because it would go faster and make it easier to win races! Any more suggestions or comments, keep them coming! jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=htt p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May ExcfooterNO62) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=htt… ExcfooterNO62)

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