September 2003 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

RE: M_Boats: songs of the forestay
by Smith, Tom 15 Sep '03

15 Sep '03

Hey! Isn't that a coincidence Rich. Jerry built my new standing rigging too! I guess I'm surprised it only emits a high pitched tone and not a rousing, brew-soaked, multi-versed sea chantey... Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar -----Original Message----- From: Richard Cottrell [mailto:rc2222@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:03 PM To: Montgomery Boats Subject: M_Boats: songs of the forestay Tom: The forestay is part of the new rigging package from Jerry Montgomery. Do you think that may have something to do with the sound? There's no doubt that once it started singing I dropped the wind meter and went as far forward as possible and held on. The spray was soaking me while I kept her pointed as high as possible. If you let off just a little bit the waves and wind would knock me off course and there would be too much jib (4.5 ounce, 36 sf) pulling me down. What a rush!! Now that several days have passed I wish I were back in the same situation. It's soo much more fun than being back at work. Rich _____ This message was scanned for viruses.

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songs of the forestay
by Richard Cottrell 15 Sep '03

15 Sep '03

Tom: The forestay is part of the new rigging package from Jerry Montgomery. Do you think that may have something to do with the sound? There's no doubt that once it started singing I dropped the wind meter and went as far forward as possible and held on. The spray was soaking me while I kept her pointed as high as possible. If you let off just a little bit the waves and wind would knock me off course and there would be too much jib (4.5 ounce, 36 sf) pulling me down. What a rush!! Now that several days have passed I wish I were back in the same situation. It's soo much more fun than being back at work. Rich

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RE: M_Boats: songs of the forestay
by Smith, Tom 15 Sep '03

15 Sep '03

I'm not sure that was the forestay you heard Rich. I know when I sail my 15 in high winds, that's me that making that high-pitched sound... t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar -----Original Message----- From: Richard Cottrell [mailto:rc2222@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:00 AM To: Montgomery Boats Subject: M_Boats: songs of the forestay Just returned from several days of sailing on Trinity Lake. The northerly afternoon winds made for some exciting experiences. When close hauled It seemed everytime the windmeter indicated winds above 19 knots the forestay would sound a high pitched tune. Is this to be expected or is the forestay tension too tight? Rich Cottrell, M15 "Really" _____ This message was scanned for viruses.

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Re: M_Boats: UHMW, HDPE, Cast Bronze
by dik lang 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

The HDPE that I have used is readily machinable using standard woodworking tools such as a table saw band saw, and router. I would like to know if the newer glass center board is weighted internally, and what its weight is. >From: "Honshells" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> >Reply-To: For and about Montgomery >Sailboats<montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >To: "For and about Montgomery >Sailboats"<montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: M_Boats: UHMW, HDPE, Cast Bronze >Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:11:06 -0400 > >I lined the insides of the cheekplates of my new kick-up rudder with UHMW >to prevent scratches to the rudder >body varnish (my rudder's design mounts the cheekplates on the rudder BLADE >instead of body): UHMW is known >as the "poor man's Teflon". My cheek plate liners have the added benefit >of making the lifting and lowering >action of my rudder-blade VERY smooth. I am very happy with the result. > >Wouldn't any weight that you might add to HDPE be subject to the same >corrosion problems as the original cast >board? Could you round the edges of the HDPE (You can't round the edges of >a piece of UHMW, at least with a >cutting tool: Perhaps with a "melting" tool.)? > >Is cast bronze really prohibitively expensive? Especially when you >consider that it would eliminate >centerboard maintenance for good? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <htmills(a)bright.net> >To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" ><montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 12:07 PM >Subject: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion > >High Density Polyethylene plastic. I don't have a density of that >particular plastic handy but it's probably very similar to UHMW (Ultra High >Molecular Weight) plastic which weighs 60 pounds/cu ft....too light to stay >down without some lead added to it... > >Tod > >-----Original Message----- >From: montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry >Montgomery >Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:02 AM >To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >Subject: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion > >What is HDPE? How heavy is it? > >Jerry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "dik lang" <diklang32(a)hotmail.com> >To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 8:04 AM >Subject: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion > >I have to ask the question. Has anyone considered using HDPE for a >centerboard on the m-17? It is cheap compared to the alternatives, can >be cut with a bandsaw, no corrosion, low friction, doesn't support >maarine growth, needs no maint. Stainless bushings and stops could be >inserted as needed. My only real concern is, will it be stiff enough >laterally? If >this >is a real option would the lack of weight be of concern? could add'l >ballast >be placed elswhere? Jerry? Bob? any comments? > > >From: John Fleming <jfleming1231(a)earthlink.net> >Reply-To: For and about Montgomery >Sailboats<montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats ><montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:57:53 -0700 > >Jerry Montgomery wrote: > >Note that the M-17 centerboards were of cast iron- not steel, which >is much more corrosion resistant. Does Mr. Warren talk about this? >Also note that >the stainless wire pennant is aftermarket; we used dacron. > >Jerry > >Hi Jerry, > >That's interesting, dacron rope. Is it stable when immersed in >seawater? How often should it be checked and or replaced? Would I >just tie a knot? > >Yes, Nigel Warren discusses cast iron, the complete discussion is >below. To summarize, he says that iron and mild steel corrode at the >same rate, but have different corrosion behavior. Cast irons with >significant >amounts >of nickel, silicon, or chromium rust much more slowly than ordinary >cast iron. > >Obviously, stainless corrodes more slowly, but it has problems with >crevice >corrosion, especially in areas of high flow or no flow. I'll scan >that discussion in some other time. > >Regards, > >John Fleming >M-17: "Star Cross'd" > >---- > >While wrought iron is not much used today, cast iron is still >popular. >The >various grades of cast iron are produced by varying the composition >(and here carbon is important) and by varying the crystalline >structure as >seen >under a microscope. The latter is done by various furnace >procedures. Hence one sees names such as 'grey iron' and 'white >iron', so called because of the appearance of a fracture. Grey iron >is basic cast iron >and >under BS 1452 there are various grades with tensile strengths ranging >from >10 T/sq. in. (150 N/mm^2) to 27 T/sq. in. (400 N/mm^2). Then there >is nodular cast iron with greater strength (BS 2789), 'nodular' >meaning that the carbon in the iron is held in compact graphite >nodules rather than flakes as in cast grey iron. Nodular cast iron >is also called SG iron, >the >SG standing for spheroidal graphite. Other names for it are ductile >iron, nodular graphite iron, and spherultic iron. Nodular cast iron >is a steel-like metal easily machined and giving a smooth finish. It >is the >most >modern development of cast iron; previously the only reasonably >ductile cast iron available was 'malleable iron'. > >Malleable iron is a white iron which has been heat-treated to reduce >brittleness. There are three groups, whiteheart, blackheart and >pearlite (BS 309, 3 10 and 333 respectively). These terms refer to >the process by which they are made and their resulting crystal >structure. > >More sophisticated irons include the nickel cast irons and the >high-alloy cast irons, both having enhanced strength and ductility. > >The corrosion rate of iron in seawater is much the same as that of >mild steel, but the form of corrosion is very different. Whereas >mild steel gradually wastes away and becomes physically smaller, iron >tends to >retain >its shape and outward size but rots away from inside. Superficially >it >may >look sound, but a sharp prod can reveal massive corrosion underneath. >This >form of attack is called graphitization because a graphite residue is >all that is left. > >The ordinary cast irons have a poor resistance to shock and fracture >fairly >easily; they are also readily attacked by sulphate-reducing bacteria. > >Ductile iron is the modern equivalent of cast iron. It does not >fracture as easily but its corrosion resistance is much the same. >Nickel cast iron with 1-3% of nickel is a finer-grained iron but >again the corrosion resistance is barely enhanced. > >There are families of high-alloy cast iron: irons with large amounts >of chromium, or nickel or silicon. The austenitic nickel cast irons >have a low uniform rate of corrosion in seawater and do not suffer >from graphitization; they rust but slowly on deck. These cast irons >are often called Ni-Resist, but this name is actually a trademark. >The high-silicon cast irons (about 14% Si) also have a much enhanced >resistance to corrosion, as do the high-chromium irons (12-35% Cr). >(See Tables 8 and >9.) > >Unless a high-alloy cast iron is used, with much increased cost, the >various 'cheap and cheerful' cast irons corrode at much the same rate >as carbon and low-alloy steels. > >To Conclude > >Common mild steel and cast iron are excellent materials in many ways; >they >are strong and economical - but they rust. But at least the rusting >is obvious and gradual and the metal is unlikely to fail suddenly as >can happen to stainless steel or high strength metals. Some low-alloy >steels like Cor-Ten are 'slow rusting' in a marine atmosphere but >rust much like mild steel when immersed in seawater. > >All steels should have the mill scale removed before painting. > >Hot-dip zinc galvanizing is generally far superior and more 'cost >effective' than zinc or cadmium electroplating. To get the best >galvanizing >ask for the work to be done to a standard, e.g. BS 729. If the >galvanized item is to be immersed it is essential to paint it, >preferably by using a self-etch primer for the first coat. >Galvanizing gives a tough >self-healing >coating and one which is quite inexpensive. > >Electroplating is a waste of time unless a standard is specified, >e.g. BS 1706 Class A. Zinc electric plating is preferable to cadmium >because the coating thickness is greater. Nevertheless hot-dip >galvanizing will give >a >much longer life and yet its cost is only very slightly more than >electroplating. > >Galvanized or plated steel makes a good base for paint which in turn >gives >a long life to the paint and the metal coating providing the paint is >'keyed' to the coat. > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es

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Re: M_Boats: songs of the fore stay
by chbenneck＠juno.com 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

Hi Rich, Think violin, or bass fiddle. They all have strings with different tensions on them. If you blow across them with an increasing wind speed, at some point they will become excited - and "sing". Shrouds / forestay have the same effect. On my big boat I knew that the winds were between 20 and 25 knots when my rigging started to sing. A natural phenomenon. When it starts singing is a question of the tension in the fore stay / shrouds. Haven't calibrated my M15 that way yet so can't add any definitive words of wisdom, but rigging singing is natural. Connie

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songs of the forestay
by Richard Cottrell 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

Just returned from several days of sailing on Trinity Lake. The northerly afternoon winds made for some exciting experiences. When close hauled It seemed everytime the windmeter indicated winds above 19 knots the forestay would sound a high pitched tune. Is this to be expected or is the forestay tension too tight? Rich Cottrell, M15 "Really"

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Re: M_Boats: UHMW, HDPE, Cast Bronze
by Wcpritchett＠aol.com 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

I think the HDPE would need reinforcing to be strong enough. For weight you could cut a rectangle section out of the board near the lower trailing edge and fill with lead. It could be captured on all 4 edges with pins and would be flush with the board. Lead is 750lbs cu ft so it doesn't take much. Probably a few pounds would do on a small board. Just for reference I had 40lbs of lead holding down a 32' sharpie centerboard...the board was made of 2"x10" wood planks drift bolted together and approx 10' long x 3' wide.

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Re: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion
by dik lang 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

I have to ask the question. Has anyone considered using HDPE for a centerboard on the m-17? It is cheap compared to the alternatives, can be cut with a bandsaw, no corrosion, low friction, doesn't support maarine growth, needs no maint. Stainless bushings and stops could be inserted as needed. My only real concern is, will it be stiff enough laterally? If this is a real option would the lack of weight be of concern? could add'l ballast be placed elswhere? Jerry? Bob? any comments? >From: John Fleming <jfleming1231(a)earthlink.net> >Reply-To: For and about Montgomery >Sailboats<montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats ><montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:57:53 -0700 > >Jerry Montgomery wrote: >>Note that the M-17 centerboards were of cast iron- not steel, which is >>much >>more corrosion resistant. Does Mr. Warren talk about this? Also note >>that >>the stainless wire pennant is aftermarket; we used dacron. >> >>Jerry > >Hi Jerry, > >That's interesting, dacron rope. Is it stable when immersed in seawater? >How often should it be checked and or replaced? Would I just tie a knot? > >Yes, Nigel Warren discusses cast iron, the complete discussion is below. >To summarize, he says that iron and mild steel corrode at the same rate, >but have different corrosion behavior. Cast irons with significant amounts >of nickel, silicon, or chromium rust much more slowly than ordinary cast >iron. > >Obviously, stainless corrodes more slowly, but it has problems with crevice >corrosion, especially in areas of high flow or no flow. I'll scan that >discussion in some other time. > >Regards, >John Fleming >M-17: "Star Cross'd" > >---- > >While wrought iron is not much used today, cast iron is still popular. The >various grades of cast iron are produced by varying the composition (and >here carbon is important) and by varying the crystalline structure as seen >under a microscope. The latter is done by various furnace procedures. >Hence one sees names such as 'grey iron' and 'white iron', so called >because of the appearance of a fracture. Grey iron is basic cast iron and >under BS 1452 there are various grades with tensile strengths ranging from >10 T/sq. in. (150 N/mm^2) to 27 T/sq. in. (400 N/mm^2). Then there is >nodular cast iron with greater strength (BS 2789), 'nodular' meaning that >the carbon in the iron is held in compact graphite nodules rather than >flakes as in cast grey iron. Nodular cast iron is also called SG iron, the >SG standing for spheroidal graphite. Other names for it are ductile iron, >nodular graphite iron, and spherultic iron. Nodular cast iron is a >steel-like metal easily machined and giving a smooth finish. It is the most >modern development of cast iron; previously the only reasonably ductile >cast iron available was 'malleable iron'. > >Malleable iron is a white iron which has been heat-treated to reduce >brittleness. There are three groups, whiteheart, blackheart and pearlite >(BS 309, 3 10 and 333 respectively). These terms refer to the process by >which they are made and their resulting crystal structure. > >More sophisticated irons include the nickel cast irons and the high-alloy >cast irons, both having enhanced strength and ductility. > >The corrosion rate of iron in seawater is much the same as that of mild >steel, but the form of corrosion is very different. Whereas mild steel >gradually wastes away and becomes physically smaller, iron tends to retain >its shape and outward size but rots away from inside. Superficially it may >look sound, but a sharp prod can reveal massive corrosion underneath. This >form of attack is called graphitization because a graphite residue is all >that is left. > >The ordinary cast irons have a poor resistance to shock and fracture fairly >easily; they are also readily attacked by sulphate-reducing bacteria. > >Ductile iron is the modern equivalent of cast iron. It does not fracture >as easily but its corrosion resistance is much the same. Nickel cast iron >with 1-3% of nickel is a finer-grained iron but again the corrosion >resistance is barely enhanced. > >There are families of high-alloy cast iron: irons with large amounts of >chromium, or nickel or silicon. The austenitic nickel cast irons have a >low uniform rate of corrosion in seawater and do not suffer from >graphitization; they rust but slowly on deck. These cast irons are often >called Ni-Resist, but this name is actually a trademark. The high-silicon >cast irons (about 14% Si) also have a much enhanced resistance to >corrosion, as do the high-chromium irons (12-35% Cr). (See Tables 8 and 9.) > >Unless a high-alloy cast iron is used, with much increased cost, the >various 'cheap and cheerful' cast irons corrode at much the same rate as >carbon and low-alloy steels. > >To Conclude > >Common mild steel and cast iron are excellent materials in many ways; they >are strong and economical - but they rust. But at least the rusting is >obvious and gradual and the metal is unlikely to fail suddenly as can >happen to stainless steel or high strength metals. Some low-alloy steels >like Cor-Ten are 'slow rusting' in a marine atmosphere but rust much like >mild steel when immersed in seawater. > >All steels should have the mill scale removed before painting. > >Hot-dip zinc galvanizing is generally far superior and more 'cost >effective' than zinc or cadmium electroplating. To get the best galvanizing >ask for the work to be done to a standard, e.g. BS 729. If the galvanized >item is to be immersed it is essential to paint it, preferably by using a >self-etch primer for the first coat. Galvanizing gives a tough self-healing >coating and one which is quite inexpensive. > >Electroplating is a waste of time unless a standard is specified, e.g. BS >1706 Class A. Zinc electric plating is preferable to cadmium because the >coating thickness is greater. Nevertheless hot-dip galvanizing will give a >much longer life and yet its cost is only very slightly more than >electroplating. > >Galvanized or plated steel makes a good base for paint which in turn gives >a long life to the paint and the metal coating providing the paint is >'keyed' to the coat. > > > >_______________________________________________ >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon

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p.s., Praises for the Montgomery Cockpit
by Honshells 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

I also appreciate the security. Many boats' cockpits are uncomfortable for the opposite reason from the one Tod cited: The seatbacks are angled back to much, so that you need cushions to sit vertical, and feel like you're going to fall out of the boat when heeled . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Praises for the Montgomery Cockpit It was definitely a significant selling-point for me. My M17's cockpit is more comfortable than my partnership's Flicka's . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills(a)bright.net> To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:33 AM Subject: praises for the Montgomery cockpit I've been sitting in some other boats cockpits lately and my earlier statements about the comfort of the M-17 cockpit are still holding true: most others just don't hold a candle to the 17's. Yesterday I went out on a Tartan 30 and sure enough, the seatback was too vertical so that the top corner dug into my back. The owner, of his own accord, (I didn't bring up the subject) said that you need a cushion behind you to get comfortable. It appears that Lyle and Jerry have accomplished what few others have been able to do! ************** All you folks in the Chesapeake area, good luck with Isabel! ************** I noticed in the GOB classifieds that two former M17'ers are selling their non-M's: Busca's former owner, Dennis R. and Peter J. Tod BuscaBrisas (Boo'-ska Bree'-sass)

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praises for the Montgomery cockpit
by htmills＠bright.net 14 Sep '03

14 Sep '03

I've been sitting in some other boats cockpits lately and my earlier statements about the comfort of the M-17 cockpit are still holding true: most others just don't hold a candle to the 17's. Yesterday I went out on a Tartan 30 and sure enough, the seatback was too vertical so that the top corner dug into my back. The owner, of his own accord, (I didn't bring up the subject) said that you need a cushion behind you to get comfortable. It appears that Lyle and Jerry have accomplished what few others have been able to do! ************** All you folks in the Chesapeake area, good luck with Isabel! ************** I noticed in the GOB classifieds that two former M17'ers are selling their non-M's: Busca's former owner, Dennis R. and Peter J. Tod BuscaBrisas (Boo'-ska Bree'-sass)

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