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Subject: [Glencook-fans] Starfishers/Passage at Arms

I just finished /Passage at Arms/. Excellent book, but now I have a question. Several years ago, I read the Starfisher books, and I seem to recall something about the Ulants in those books. "Big Rock Candy Mountain" is also briefly mentioned in /Passage at Arms /and I seem to recall that as well from Starfishers. Help me out here, folks... Am I confused, or does /Passage/ take place in the same universe as the others? Hopefully someone has read these more recently or has a better memory than me. :) TIA.

Passage takes place in the same universe as Starfishers, damn nice book isn't it?

Passage is one of my favorites. It does a great job of translating the feel of old-time submarines into space. :-) Steve

I'd agree Steve, Passage is a whole lot tighter, Starfishers requires quite a bit more suspension of disbelief. Passage feels more like a good old WWII sub movie and the tide rises and falls in a more rhythmic pattern. February eh? Still a ways off. What's everyone reading over the holidays? I'll be reading Robinson's Mars trilogy and Smith's Lensman series. -----Original Message----- From: glencook-fans-bounces+john.sachse=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:glencook-fans-bounces+john.sachse=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve Harris Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:26 PM To: Glen Cook: Science Fiction/Fantasy Author Subject: Re: [Glencook-fans] Starfishers/Passage at Arms Yes, "Passage at Arms" is in the same universe as the Starfishers--but a whole lot better. I recently read through the Starfishers trilogy and was roundly disappointed--it just creaked, I thought, with plot devices open and leaking. Anyone else have the same feeling? Steve/Stacey PS I've got the second installment on Instrumentalities of the Night on order with Amazon--won't be coming till late February *sigh* _______________________________________________ glencook-fans mailing list glencook-fans@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/glencook-fans

I got a hankering to read the Star Wars novelizations recently, more for completeness than for intrinsic interest in the writing. First two--Episodes I and II (Brooks and Salvatore)--were god-awful, nearly put me off the project. But the Salvatore book contained an extract from Matthew Stover's "Shatterpoint"--and that had sparkle and believability. So I got and read "Shatterpoint" next--and it's a goddamned good book! Stover also wrote Ep. III, and I'm quickly going through that. It's an example of how a good writer can take a screenplay and give it novelistic weight and heft. Steve/Stacey

Does anybody know how I can get information on Glen's Convention schedule? Which ones he might attend and the dates. I'd like to meet him and get a couple of my books signed. Richard Gruver

Steve Chew wrote:

I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and noticed that the new Glen Cook book is out: Lord of the Silent Kingdom. It's the second in the "Instrumentalities of the Night" series (can there be a more awkward series name? Haha.) I couldn't get it that day but I'll be getting it shortly. :-)

This list is dead, nobody mentioned it. LoSK is another great book from Glen Cook. Waaaay more happens, almost all of the pieces were on the board by the end of the first book. Secondary characters get fleshed out, Pinkus is still Pinkus, Else's background gets filled-in much, much more than I was expecting. Things under Brothe are revealed. There are some survivors. Else's New Trick sees a lot of use as he becomes what the Instrumentalities truly dread. Some minor things take much more effort than they should, some major efforts wrap up quickly. Crowns change heads. Heads leave shoulders. Good stuff.

I couldn't get in to TTotN. Not sure why, really. I seem to have a love-hate relationship with Cook's writing; either I devour it (all TBC, Dragon, Passage) or lose interest in the first dozen pages (TTotN, TFiHH). So... that being the case, would it be possible to start with LoSK or is there simply too much revealed/laid out in the first book? (My guess is this is one of those series where you *must* start with the first book...) -Dave -----Original Message----- From: glencook-fans-bounces+dave=slovotskys-laws.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:glencook-fans-bounces+dave=slovotskys-laws.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve Harris Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:31 AM To: Glen Cook: Science Fiction/Fantasy Author Subject: Re: [Glencook-fans] New Glen Cook book

LoSK is another great book from Glen Cook. Waaaay more happens, almost all of the pieces were on the board by the end of the first book. Secondary characters get fleshed out, Pinkus is still Pinkus, Else's background gets filled-in much, much more than I was expecting. Things under Brothe are revealed. There are some survivors. Else's New Trick sees a lot of use as he becomes what the Instrumentalities truly dread. Some minor things take much more effort than they should, some major efforts wrap up quickly. Crowns change heads. Heads leave shoulders.

Good stuff.

Indeed, it's a good book! Much better than the "The Tyranny of the Night", first one in the trilogy, in my opinion, in that it's much better written: All through theTTofTN, I kept saying to myself, "Show, don't tell!" Hardly a page went by without Cook using the auctorial voice to tell us what someone was like, instead of showing us. And there's almost none of that in LoSK. Perhaps Cook needed to, as Michael says, get all the pieces on the board in the first book, so he wanted to use fewer words to do it than would be required by showing us all that needed to be communicated. But I felt it was a major weakness in the writing; upon rereading it a year later, I felt it just as badly as I had in my first reading. Some years ago, I asked Glen when he was going to take up the Dread Empire series again. He said he'd done so and had done a considerable amount of writing, but it got lost; and he wasn't willing to redo all that effort. My guess: This Instrumentalities series is his way of starting out again with a Dread Empires type of setting, though this time "doing it right". What I mean by that: Dread Empire series, to my mind, is divided into two parts: the first four novels or so, which deal with the Storm Lords and the mysterious figure on a winged horse and is pretty much High Fantasy; and the last three novels or so, which have very little fantasy apart from the battle magics of the Tervola and are mostly about the political history of small nations, impacted by the Tervola invasion. I much prefer the latter half of that series. And the IofN series is precisely of that flavor, though this time he's starting off with that kind of emphasis, instead of backing into it. One small complaint about LotSK: It ends on a quiet note, not at a climax. He has a sort of climactic scene very near the end (focussing for a few pages back in Dreangea, the only scene in the whole book set there). There's no reason why he couldn't have put that scene at the very end, it seems to me, after instead of before the three or four other scenes that he puts at the end; I think that would have made a stronger finish. It does get difficult trying to keep track of all the many principalities and whatnots in the book; he introduces some new ones towards the end, seeming for no other purpose than to make things even more complex. But mostly, it's easier to keep track of them in LotSK than in TTofN--although perhaps I'm just more familiar with them by now. Maybe it would be a good idea to try to list here the major ones? I ordered TTofN at the same time as "Sung in Blood" from Amazon. SiB is out also. It's a small book, though hardcover. It's not quite what I would call a novel: It's just one story, taking place over a small number of days. A couple of engaging characters, but disappointing in that they don't grow--well, it's really too short for them to do so. SiB is about one wizard and a half dozen friends of his taking on a bunch of evil-doers, intent upon murder and mayhem. Pretty simple plot, really; the only interest is in watching machinations unfold. The setting is purely in one city, decently realized. I would not rate this story as a major work. (There's one character left in unsettled status at the end, perhaps a hook for a sequel.) Steve/Stacey _______________________________________________ glencook-fans mailing list glencook-fans@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/glencook-fans

Perhaps I can give a short synopsis of TTotN, just enough to get one into LofSK. But I echo Michael--it's worth pushing through the book, for the pay-off in LofSK. WARNING SPOILERS WARNING LofSK focuses chiefly on Piper Hecht, head of the armies of the Pope (well, he's called Patriarch, situated in Brothe, Firaldia--but it means the Pope, located in Rome, Italy). Hecht is not, as nearly everyone supposes, a mercenary from a European backwater, but a spy sent from Derangea, one of the Arab states. This is possible because Derangea steals infants as slaves from all over Europe and raises them to be fanatical soldiers (the Sha-Lug), so it's plausible for Hecht to have been Eureopean in extraction. Along the way from his insertion into Europe to working his way up to his august position, Hecht was the target of several assassination attempts from sorcerors. He managed to escape, in part because of his brilliant discovery, back when he was a normal solider for Derangea: If you mix silver and iron into the charge of a cannon (newly invented by Deves), the result is fatal to magical creatures and very disabling to sorcerors. The Deves are the best cannon engineers (as well as good sources of information on the European power centers), so he's made common cause with them in spite of their pariah status. People who know Hecht's true identity (Else Tage): his mistress Anna in Brothe, his friend and chief contact among the Deves (i.e., Jews)Titus, and, possibly, the mysterious diplomat/spy Renfrow. Hecht's actual motives have undergone a shift. He started out intending to spy upon the motives and intentions of the Pope and do his best to frustate the Pope's building of a new crusade in the Holy Land, but he's found that none of his messages have got back home, and it seems he's been abandoned. Worse, he's found that the court wizard back home, er-Rashal--who fitted him with an anti-magic amulet of some potency, the better to survive his spy mission--appears to have joined the forces arrayed against him. Hecht might still be loyal to the power-holder back at home (Gordimer), but he's been operating totally on his own for some time now. He went along on a mini-crusade which didn't get a whole lot further than Sicily (at any rate, it didn't get to the Holy Land); his chief effect there was to wipe out some magical creatures. Hecht's still committed to frustrating any invasion of the Holy Land, but mostly he works just at being an honorable leader of armies (something of an anomaly). A secondary story is that of a wandering monk in the End of Connec--think Switzerland. This "Perfect" is trying to preserve Connecen independence from the Pope by organizing moral strength of character and sensible resistance. There is a host of tertiary stories, such as the Emperor Johan (think Holy Roman Emperor), vying for political influence with the Pope; Johan's daughter (one of whom has a crush on Hecht) and sickly son; innumerable swirlings of political alliances and betrayals among the European states (including a rival Pope); and double dealings, ancient feuds, and shifting alliances among the Brothen aristocratic families, who control the Collegium (combination College of Cardinals and official sorcerors). Not to mention an entirely different scale of story having to do with the Norse gods and a pair of Vikings they send out to kill Hecht, for having the temerity to have invented a god-killer. Well, it is a 400-page book... Steve/Stacey

Shaggot and his brother are actually the best-drawn characters in the first book. Telling their story from the narrator's viewpoint works better for them than any of the others, because their viewpoint is so warped and alien. Else just worked on securing his position, the brothers had the real narrative arc of the first book.

Not only that; they also display considerable character development (at least Shaggot does). It reminds me a bit of the back-story on discovering the remains of the Dominator & Co. that forms a continuing alternative plot-line in the 2nd (?) of the Black Company books, though it ends up better integrated with the main plot line than Raven's chronicle does. Steve/Stacey

Greetings folks; Sorry if this has been posted and talked about already, but I thought that I'd bring this to your collected attention. A book from NightShade Press, with a publcation listed as being in August of 2006. It's called "A Cruel Wind". I purchased my copy through the Science Fiction Book Club. -- Well before Glen Cook’s intense and gritty Black Company series, there was the Dread Empire trilogy, his first major work. A grand-scale heroic fantasy centering around the mysterious realm of Shinsan, a far Empire feared for its sorcery and devotion to evil, the Dread Empire novels are beloved for their spare, straightforward prose and complex plotting as much as for the unflinching humanity of its characters. A Cruel Wind brings together the initial three novels of this extraordinary saga. An ancient divination had promised that both the city and empire of Ilkazar would fall because of a witch, so laws were passed to ensure this would never happen. Yet the day that Varthlokkur’s mother was burned at the stake, Ilkazar’s greatest foe was born. Raised by a kindly old couple, and, subsequently, by his own wits on the streets of the wizard-ruled city, young Varth sought training from the Princes Thaumaturge, the dread lords of Shinsan. He grew to manhood hungry for vengeance, and in time rained destruction upon Ilkazar. Then, lost and lonely without his life-long purpose, the ageless wizard retreated from the world with a single goal in mind—to wait through the ages for the woman destined to be his…. Centuries later, at an isolated redoubt in the Mountains of Fear, Princess Nepanthe tires of being a lonely tool for her brothers’ mad plan. Though Ilkazar fell and their ancestors fled long ago, these Storm Kings harbor dreams of rebuilding their empire. Adding to their own powers those of a magical artifact stolen from the world’s most ancient mage, they conquer the city that is to be the heart of their new imperium. But the Storm Kings don’t count on the legendary Varthlokkur’s interference…. Includes A Shadow of All Night Falling, October’s Baby, and All Darkness Met. Jacket art by Raymond Swanland. (582 pp.) 1979-1980. ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

Richard, Good framework for reviewing. I like your description of levels of magic competence: Amateur (Raven) Low Level Professional (better than Raven, less powerful than company wizards) Professional (One Eye, Goblin, Silent, and Tom-Tom) Good Professional (Smoke) Great (The Circle of 18, New Taken) Great with Experience (The Ten Who Were Taken) Extremely Great (Dominator, Lady) In my opinion, a good gaming system would make it possible, with a great deal of play, to get to the Great level; but only epic-level play should get to the Great with Experience level, and the Extremely Great should be on a par with demigods. (Well, the Dominator was, essentially, a demigod; Lady, however, was much less than that.) What would be interesting would be a system that allows one to craft one's own spells, as the Company wizards did. I've just started playing Fantasy Hero, where all spells have to be crafted by the players; it's a helluva lotta work, frankly. Could one combine a Fantasy-Hero kind of magic system with a d20 framework? I'm not sure. Steve/Stacey

They made the (IMO) mistake of trying to adopt the D20 magic system into BC. If you look at DCs and likely wizard-level-to-DC-range spreads, you'll see that what wizards can do at various levels matches regular D20 spellcasters, with a bit of a fudge factor (either juice up a few levels for one big spell, or throttle back and spread out your abilities). Unfortunately, in practice a few kinds of magic are overwhelmingly effective in comparison to other kinds. After some consideration, I was glad they didn't try to convert all of the Taken into write-ups, as the job they did wasn't very good. Most of the Taken they wrote up are missing at least one Talent (spell) which they actually cast in the series. In some cases (like Limper), their example text for the spell features the Taken casting it, but the Taken write-up omits that spell from their list! I think the big problem is that Black Company magic doesn't lend itself well to a traditional level-based RPG. You'd almost need a story-based approach. Alternately, you'd need a loose set of rules combined with a very watchful GM. The best way to run such a game is probably for nobody in the party to have spellcasting ability. Then the GM can handle all the magic mysteriously behind the scenes. David Richard Chilton wrote:

Here's the link to a brief article I posted on the wiki about the Black Company game.

http://en.glencook.org/index.php/Review_d20

In summary: A good attempt, but it fails when it comes to the magic system. Think Warhammer meets D20.

Richard

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David Ainsworth wrote:

They made the (IMO) mistake of trying to adopt the D20 magic system into BC. If you look at DCs and likely wizard-level-to-DC-range spreads, you'll see that what wizards can do at various levels matches regular D20 spellcasters, with a bit of a fudge factor (either juice up a few levels for one big spell, or throttle back and spread out your abilities).

That and they borrow too heavily from Warhammer with its "petty magic and four levels of pro" system. And I can't see any PC doing what One-Eye did - he took a subclass that allowed him to enchant better when he was a single level away from being able to match one of the 18.

Unfortunately, in practice a few kinds of magic are overwhelmingly effective in comparison to other kinds.

Exactly. Like when they were trying to catch up with the Limper and seeing the after effects of spells, after effects that scared the company wizards. Or when Stormbringer was hurling weather to slow down (or destroy) rival armies. There's no way to balance a party when some PCs are experienced soldiers and others are Taken level wizards.

After some consideration, I was glad they didn't try to convert all of the Taken into write-ups, as the job they did wasn't very good. Most of the Taken they wrote up are missing at least one Talent (spell) which they actually cast in the series. In some cases (like Limper), their example text for the spell features the Taken casting it, but the Taken write-up omits that spell from their list!

Even the company wizards had this problem - where was the illusion that Goblin like casting (I think it was the one I noticed missing)? And that bit when the three company wizards put their heads together and taught each spells (I think it was the Sleep spell they shared) - unless they were all leveling up and getting new feats they couldn't have done it. And the magic hammer (a learning excises that no real wizard would use, but was the first spell Lady used when her powers were returning) got the same treatment as the other spells... Well, let's just agree that the magic system was terrible. I did hope for more descriptive writing about the lesser known Taken, but I guess the writers were using just what was published in the books instead of picking Glen Cook's mind.

I think the big problem is that Black Company magic doesn't lend itself well to a traditional level-based RPG. You'd almost need a story-based approach. Alternately, you'd need a loose set of rules combined with a very watchful GM.

Exactly. I once (long ago) came across a AD&D version of Skeeve - hero of the Robert Asprin Myth books - which pointed out he basically knew only a handful of spells. He would be nothing compared to AD&D wizard, but his handful of spells could be exploited in almost every situation.

The best way to run such a game is probably for nobody in the party to have spellcasting ability. Then the GM can handle all the magic mysteriously behind the scenes.

Which is how Cook basically handled it. Richard

* On Thu 12/21/06 at 13:31, John F. Sachse (john.sachse@comcast.net) wrote:

I'd agree Steve, Passage is a whole lot tighter, Starfishers requires quite a bit more suspension of disbelief.

Passage feels more like a good old WWII sub movie and the tide rises and falls in a more rhythmic pattern.

February eh? Still a ways off. What's everyone reading over the holidays? I'll be reading Robinson's Mars trilogy and Smith's Lensman series.

I recently finished "Old Man's War" by John Scalzi which was an excellent, fun, sci-fi story, mostly in an adventure style but with a few insights as well. I recommend it. Next I think I'm going to read "Deadhouse Gates" by Steven Erikson which is the second book in the Malazan series. The first book, "Gardens in the Moon," was recommended here and I enjoyed it very much. The gritty feel reminded me a lot of Cook's writings but with a less sparse style. Steve