well, you're right -- it's not up to me to determine how incendiary something is. But it's not a given that a fistfight would be more influential than a change in academic perception. How physically safe you are doesn't necessarily enter into the equation.
The most culturally revolutionary thing about Beethoven is much more practical -- that he was the first major composer to make a living in the private sector.
Just from listening to Ludwig van's later stuff, I'd say he had a lot more sheerly musical relevance than you're suggesting. Seems like making a living in the private sector was just a necessary move, given the changing economic and social climate for musicians. But the musical and the economic are inextricably related on many levels, so I can see how right you are here.
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> To: Crowmeat Bob <crowmeat@hotmail.com>,<zorn-list@lists.xmission.com> Subject: Re: No Subject Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:41:31 -0800
The Godhead of white civilized culture is, of course, Eminem or Bach. It's so hard to keep them straight.
As for Beethoven's position in any culture, that's probably only of interest within the academe, which means -- at it's most incendiary -- Braxton is stirring up a tempest in a teacup. Who would make an asserion about Beethoven like that unless he specifically wanted to tick off a bunch of guys who teach composition? What are those guys gonna do? Start a fistfight? Not likely. You're safer questioning one of their figureheads than you are by saying something similar about Malcom X in earshot of Chuck D.
The most culturally revolutionary thing about Beethoven is much more practical -- that he was the first major composer to make a living in the private sector. No matter what color you are, it's still hard for a composer to make a living writing challenging stuff, unless he's around some of Hollywood's most deranged film producers (which happens just often enough for it not to be ruled out).
sh
I find it brilliant because it goes straight for the godhead of white civilized culture and, instead of taking the angle that Beethoven only made structural additions to a phallocentric, heirarchical tradition, it undermines his very identity and position in that culture. Cultural purists who vehemently deny Beethoven was 'of Moorish descent' only reveal their own racism in attempting to preserve the whiteness of their cultural giants from the dark forces of historical revisionism. Or is it a case of 'reverse revisionism'? who gives a fuck really if he was black or white or somewhere on the gray scale, ultimately, aside from the Purists? I just think it's brilliant because it 'puts a black-gloved fist up the diz of all conservative musical architects', to paraphrase someone claiming to be Thomas Pynchon.
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on 11/19/02 4:06 PM, Crowmeat Bob at crowmeat@hotmail.com wrote:
well, you're right -- it's not up to me to determine how incendiary something is. But it's not a given that a fistfight would be more influential than a change in academic perception. How physically safe you are doesn't necessarily enter into the equation.
Depends who is reporting the fistfight. Also, I think a return to the good ol' days -- like when Rite Of Spring could start a brawl -- would be welcome. Instead of a bunch of elbow-patched elitist scumbags telling you about how relevant a bunch of dead guys really are to you, even if you don't kno0w it.
The most culturally revolutionary thing about Beethoven is much more practical -- that he was the first major composer to make a living in the private sector.
Just from listening to Ludwig van's later stuff, I'd say he had a lot more sheerly musical relevance than you're suggesting. Seems like making a living in the private sector was just a necessary move, given the changing economic and social climate for musicians. But the musical and the economic are inextricably related on many levels, so I can see how right you are here.
Actually, I should have been clearer about something -- namely how in line with you I am about how fantastic Beethoven could be. The late quartets, in particular) are really moving. Leonard Bernstein was right -- Beethoven's primary gift was to taken any note and make it feel as if it was the inevitable choice to follow the note before. I should have been clear that I do not question his relevance at all. Even with all that said, the fact that he didn't spend his life writing church music for some syphillitic cleric, nor did he write his era's disco (what do you think all that 18th century dance music was for -- the fab parties held by the "beautiful people" of the day) nor period dinner/cocktail music (what do you think all those small chamber groups were hired for by the king?). I don't know that Beethoven saw a changing economic climate for composers. He could easily have become someone's court composer, to be sure. But the fact that he didn't choose that route and still managed to be such a force speaks volumes upon volumes for how string his music really was and is. sh sh
participants (2)
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Crowmeat Bob -
skip Heller