Fritz Feger <mail@fritzfeger.de> wrote:
Thank you all for the illuminating discussion on this! I must say that it leaves a slightly incoherent taste about the whole RJC thing. I second the argument that, if you label something like that, it would be naive to believe that it isn't read politically.
Sorry if this seems redundant. Looking at the aggregate of the 70 or so discs released in the RJC series of Tzadik, I think it's at least equally naive to ONLY read the term politically. Many of the works presented as RJC have no possible overt political content, so theorizing that the term is being used strictly in its political sense is absurd. If the range of what has been presented under the rubric of RJC is incoherent based on your understanding of the phrase, the fault really may be with how you're interpreting the phrase. If you try to reconcile your theory with the actual practice you're supposedly analyzing, you'll find a lot of practice that this particular theory fails to take into account. As Wittgenstein wrote, Look to the use. -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com
Hi, At the risk of also sounding redundant, I'd like to point out that I have never read the RJC Series in political terms nor have I come to that conclusion after reading any of the e-mails sent to the list in that regard. I think there has been some kind of misunderstanding along the way. What I'm really questioning is the radicality of the music there, which isn't that obvious. That understood (and probably agreed by most of the people here), what I'm wondering is what the term "Radical" is really applied to. The music? Anyone with a bit of common sense will hardly find something really radical in those 70 plus releases. There's also the possibility that Zorn thinks that the general tone of those releases is radical in some way or another. I can't share his opinion, though. If the author of "Locus Solus", "Execution Ground" and "The Classic Guide to Strategy" finds Erik Friedlander, Jenny Scheinmann or Sephardic Tinge radical, then I must be missing something. Furthermore, I'm also wondering why someone who puts denominations like that to a music series in which many musicians publish their work isn't clear about his motivations to choose those terms. New Japan is clear, Composer Series is really clear, Radical Jewish Culture might be more controversial. Put simply: If you choose the image of a cut-off head on a plate for one of your album covers, do you really think nobody will ask why? Although different examples, I think that the same applies to RJC. All the best, Efrén del Valle Sorry if this seems redundant. Looking at the aggregate of the 70 or so discs released in the RJC series of Tzadik, I think it's at least equally naive to ONLY read the term politically. Many of the works presented as RJC have no possible overt political content, so theorizing that the term is being used strictly in its political sense is absurd. If the range of what has been presented under the rubric of RJC is incoherent based on your understanding of the phrase, the fault really may be with how you're interpreting the phrase. If you try to reconcile your theory with the actual practice you're supposedly analyzing, you'll find a lot of practice that this particular theory fails to take into account. As Wittgenstein wrote, Look to the use. -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ___________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sorteos Consulta si tu número ha sido premiado en Yahoo! Sorteos http://loteria.yahoo.es
Efrén wrote to zorn: EdV> what I'm wondering is what the term "Radical" is really applied to. EdV> The music? Anyone with a bit of common sense will hardly find EdV> something really radical in those 70 plus releases. Let's step back a step & try on an analogy: it would be a comprehensible (if somewhat non-idiomatic in a world of "all intensive purposes") move to start a reissue series called "Radical American Rock'n'Roll" and to include the first albums by the Blasters, the Ramones, Panther Burns, and the Cramps. -- Jim Flannery newgrange@talmanassociates.com When you can't give anything, you can also receive nothing. Through giving, you also receive. You can never stop giving. When you have nothing more to give, you're dead. -- Mustafa Tettey Addy np: Dadamah, _This is not a Dream_ nr: George P. Pelecanos, _Right as Rain_
Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:25 PM "Efrén del Valle" wrote:
Put simply: If you choose the image of a cut-off head on a plate for one of your album covers, do you really think nobody will ask why?
- I have nothing to add to the RJC discussion, but the mention of the autopsy photo on the cover of Grand Guignol got me to thinking. I wonder if the covers of "Grand Guignol", "Leng Tch'e", and PainKiller's "Guts of a Virgin" aren't religious references. The "Leng Tch'e" booklet depicting the public dismemberment of Fou-Tchou-Li can only bring to mind the crucifixion of Christ, especially given the focus on the ecstatic look on his face. On "Grand Guignol" the inner gatefold picture carries an unmistakable Last Supper connotation, with the front picture reminding me of John the Baptist. And the mother and child autopsy photo on the first PainKiller CD brings to mind the Madonna and Child, especially given the title, presumably cribbed from the Kazou Komizu movie. Shows how a simple question can make you dig through your CD covers and ask "Why?"
I find amusing the idea that the covers of albums by an artist who is unmistakeably Jewish "can only bring to mind" Christian iconography. On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:16:50 -0600 "Sanchez" <lupcato@flash.net> wrote:
- I have nothing to add to the RJC discussion, but the mention of the autopsy photo on the cover of Grand Guignol got me to thinking. I wonder if the covers of "Grand Guignol", "Leng Tch'e", and PainKiller's "Guts of a Virgin" aren't religious references. The "Leng Tch'e" booklet depicting the public dismemberment of Fou-Tchou-Li can only bring to mind the crucifixion of Christ, especially given the focus on the ecstatic look on his face. On"Grand Guignol" the inner gatefold picture carries an unmistakable Last Supper connotation, with the front picture reminding me of John the Baptist. And the mother and child autopsy photo on the first PainKiller CD brings to mind the Madonna and Child, especially given the title, presumably cribbed from the Kazou Komizu movie. Shows how a simple question can make you dig through your CD covers and ask "Why?"
-- | jzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@metatronpress.com> To: <zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Zorn CD covers (was Re: Radical Jewish Culture)
I find amusing the idea that the covers of albums by an artist who is unmistakeably Jewish "can only bring to mind" Christian iconography.
Sure, what with them not having any iconography in common...
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:10:33 -0600 "Sanchez" <lupcato@flash.net> wrote:
I find amusing the idea that the covers of albums by an artist who is unmistakeably Jewish "can only bring to mind" Christian iconography.
Sure, what with them not having any iconography in common...
Hmm, this seems to conflict with the message to which I was responding, in which you mapped the images to the crucifixion, John the Baptist, and Madonna and Child. I think I can be correct in saying that these cannot conceivably be considered Jewish images, no? -- | jzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
depicting the public dismemberment of Fou-Tchou-Li can only bring to mind the crucifixion of Christ, especially given the focus on the ecstatic look on his face.
Her. It's her face. no? RL http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k CRISPELL; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; D.S. WARE / COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; IBARRA; MANERI; MORRIS; SHIPP; SPEARMAN / THREADGILL; WORKMAN / Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN; HARD BOIL; LUCILLE-- a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag... CECIL TAYLOR Sessionography & RESEARCH GROUP: http://www.webmutations.com/ceciltaylor/
Sanchez wrote: - I have nothing to add to the RJC discussion, but the mention of the
autopsy photo on the cover of Grand Guignol got me to thinking. I wonder if the covers of "Grand Guignol", "Leng Tch'e", and PainKiller's "Guts of a Virgin" aren't religious references. The "Leng Tch'e" booklet depicting the public dismemberment of Fou-Tchou-Li can only bring to mind the crucifixion of Christ, especially given the focus on the ecstatic look on his face.
Tell you what, go read George Bataille's Tears of Eros and Eroticism and get back to us. I think that should answer most of your questions (though opening many others).
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 00:25:43 +0100 (CET) Efrén del Valle <efrendv@yahoo.es> wrote:
What I'm really questioning is the radicality of the music there, which isn't that obvious. That understood (and probably agreed by most of the people here), what I'm wondering is what the term "Radical" is really applied to. The music? Anyone with a bit of common sense will hardly find something really radical in those 70 plus releases. There's also the possibility that Zorn thinks that the general tone of those releases is radical in some way or another. I can't share his opinion, though. If the author of "Locus Solus", "Execution Ground" and "The Classic Guide to Strategy" finds Erik Friedlander, Jenny Scheinmann or Sephardic Tinge radical, then I must be missing something.
Here, as so often when this issue has been talked to death in the past, we keep seeing a clear gap in definition between the people posting from Europe and from the US. It's become pretty obvious that the word "radical" has far more exact meanings to the Europeans, with suggestions of a quite particular political stance. Here in the US, the term is used more loosely. I've often heard it used to refer to skateboard design and haircuts. When you relax into the definition of the term as it is used in the place where, after all, the series originated, the title becomes far less of a problem. I also suspect that the definition of what Zorn includes in the series may have drifted over the years: while he may have had some more strict ideas early on, these ideas may have loosened, to the point where the title is a quite effective marketing ploy which he'd be a fool to drop. After all, would we be discussing so often a series named "Kinda Interesting Music Mostly By Jews"? But we've said all this before, too.
Put simply: If you choose the image of a cut-off head on a plate for one of your album covers, do you really think nobody will ask why? Although different examples, I think that the same applies to RJC.
And this proves that it is effective: people are indeed asking why. But apparently some people happen to have more trouble letting the question remain open than others do. -- | jzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | GPG: A4224EFA http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code / VoiceWAVE Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
participants (7)
-
billashline＠netscape.net -
Efrén del Valle -
Herb Levy -
Jim Flannery -
Joseph Zitt -
Rick Lopez -
Sanchez