skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> wrote:
Do these laws benefit Jello Biafra? Ellery Eskelin? John Oswald?
Do we see Jello or Ellery on the news pounding a pulpit about how downloading is "robbing us of our livelihood"? No --
Hi Ya'll, Just for the record, I have posted on news groups that I prefer folks not make and trade CDRs of my recordings or live concerts. I understand the pros and cons and to sidestep all the moral or legal arguments I would just say that if it we're up to me I would prefer that folks not do this with my music.
They're making the bulk of their cash going out and playing live to that clientele and collecting the money directly, instead of having to wait up to a year to see if the recouped on their last release.
Of course the money I make from recording doesn't come anywhere close to what major label pop music generates but it's still money that I need to keep doing what I do. My advances, royalties and publishing money all add up to enough that I'd sure miss it if it weren't there.
Burn American Music discs for your friends. Give 'em a disc with Tim Berne, Cecil Taylor, Uri Caine, Ellery Eskelin, Mark Feldman and Chris Speed.
I appreciate your zeal Skip, really I do. But no thanks, I'd prefer you didn't. If it were that easy I'd give it away myself. It costs money to make these things happen. I gotta pay my band and if it weren't for a record company with some cash to get the ball rolling I wouldn't be able to fund these things to begin with. And so I value the relationship I have with my small label and would like to see them continue. It's sometimes rather close to the bone for them. And if I do decide that I want to give something away I can. In fact, we just put a cut on a promo sampler for WIRE magazine of which 30,000 free discs were made. That's not to say that you're wrong in your ideas about promoting music, nor am I going to get self righteous about folks who make CDRs of my stuff (although I have had fans come up to me and ask me to sign bootleg CDRs of my recent discs. I thought that was audacious as hell!!) But I do value the fact that I can generally control the means and presentation of my work and I'd like to continue doing so as long as I can. It's not that I see what you're proposing to be a threat, just that it's a fine line and it gets crossed all the time. So just to keep it simple I just prefer that folks not duplicate my music onto CDRs for others. And for live shows as well, I really don't like folks to tape and trade them. I go to great lengths to document my music as best I can. A version of a show on someone's walkman from the 20th row is simply gonna sound terrible and I'd rather not have that out there as an example of our sound. In fact, the sound on 99% of the live tapes of my band that are made by festival engineers for live radio broadcasts on our European tours just suck...terribly. I can't imagine how anyone could listen to that and feel moved to wanna pursue it any further. But that's just me. I know there are other viewpoints and I'm not particularly interested in hashing those out. I just wanted to drop in since my name was mentioned and offer my 2 cents. For whatever it's worth... Respectfully yers, Ellery ================================= ELLeRY ESKELiN/MiCHELLE VAn NaTTA RaMiChElLeRy/PrImE SoUrCe PrOdUcTiOnS http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/ =================================
Ellery -- You know I love you dearly and respect the snot out of you personally and musically. To the rest of you, I love Ellery dearly and respect the snot out of him, and, although we don't see each other as often as we used to, I'm pretty sure we're still pals, even withstanding our finding ourselves on two different sides of this issue. And I am shocked, not for any moral reason, but because you were the first avant-ish artist I personally knew with his own website and was the first I knew who was really far-sighted in net matters. Sorry I used your name without checking first. Bad move on my part. But it was based on the fact that some of your best music is issued in -- according to the packaging -- limited edition pressings of 1000 and that someone's best music should have a life after 1000 copies have been sold. Advances aside, you and I both know that the royalties on 1000 copies isn't really much in the way of eating money. I know I'm arguing about a matter of degrees. And I know you have a kid now and all that. As for people making/trading CDRs of live broadcasts, the only way you can avoid that is not to do these live broadcasts. Your feeling on this is not always shared -- I've had guys who are mutual friends of yours and mine ask me for copies of stuff like that, without being upset that stuff of the type exists of their performances. The generally cause of upset seems more often to be that they had to do their own scouring for a recording of a broadcast. Bootlegging a live non-boradcast show is a whole other issue, I agree. As for your not wanting me or anyone else to rip one of your tunes into a compilation, I'll cease. But I have done it in the past, and to good results. I've personally been responsible for the creation of ten active Eskelin consumers in my neighborhood (one of them even recently paid about 30 bucks for a copy of SETTING THE STANDARD at one of those collectable jazz sites). As for myself, the only one of your records for which I have not paid retail is JAZZ TRASH, which you personally gave me. And I have nearly everything you've done. As somebody who makes a certain amount of his dough off record and broadcast royalties (last year, my royalties schedule was about equal to my playing income, if my federal tax return tells me anything), I'm certainly not blind to certain economic realities of which you speak. But I'm also very well aware that the channels by which certain kinds of music get heard are severely limited. I've never heard any of your music on KLON, which purports to be all about playing new jazz on the radio. I've fared slightly better than you at KLON, but only slightly, and I manage to draw an audience in LA whose numbers increase, mainly without a whole lot of KLON listener types. Why? Largely because industrious people who like the music make CDs for their friends and include a cut or two of mine on 'em. I have a similar position with the music I like: My position was that receptive people should hear Ellery Eskelin, and, damn it, I'd play it for 'em. And I doubt that any label exec at the Hat/Art or Innova level thinks that people making comp CDs (the way we used to do with cassettes and we heard little bellyaching about) is jeopardizing sales, unless there was only one cut the record that anybody liked. If you really want to stem the tide of this sort of activity, maybe you could post your own mp3s on your website, which would do much to control what of yours is in the digital air. It takes effort to make an mp3, and Americans are so adverse to effort that if you offered up your choices, that would do much to stem the tide of what's out there. Bottom line contemporary reality: When radio is so limited, either people read about certain stuff, or an industrious fan who makes comp CDs for his buddies has made it possible for someone to hear one or two tracks and created some curiosity there. The magazines can give out all the props, but the easiest way for someone to decide if they want to buy some music -- at a time when music is so damn expensive -- is to hear some of it in the first place. Artists/listeners like you and me have less representation in the media than at any other time in the last thirty years (boy do I miss OPTION). If a cadre of passionate advocate-consumers want to change that by becoming the media in their own circle of friends, I can only see that as positive and something in which I am happy to participate. (Did all the circulation of song poem tapes curtail any kind of interest in Rodd? Hell, no. It created a groundswell when the stuff finally found its way into releasable form. Ardolino had been sending me tapes with that stuff included for years. I wasn't exactly unenthusiastic when more became available.) Unavoidable bottom line for us all: Self-digitizing is part of the landscape now and it's not going away. US radio airplay, which was never all that wide for certain stuff anyway, is even harder for some of us to come by than ever before. You work to a specialized audience, you're gonna cultivate a passionate listenership who are not going to be content to stay mute about what they love. They finally have the means by which they can be the media in their own community. And, from what I've seen at the shows we've played throughout the country, a big part of the audience is coming because someone else took the time and trouble to get them interested. After their interested, they tend to search out and buy the CDs. If certain members of the audience want to take upon themselves to broaden the audience, that is to be commended, especially if they're getting the message to people who otherwise don't know it exists. I can only be thankful. Love to you, Michelle, and Romi -- skip h
skip Heller wrote:
and, although we don't see each other as often as we used to, I'm pretty sure we're still pals,
Skip, Absolutely. I'm still waiting for the next time we get to see an NRBQ show together!
But it was based on the fact that some of your best music is issued in -- according to the packaging -- limited edition pressings of 1000
Actually the pressings are in the 3000 to 3500 range and are subject to repressing. The only one that was pressed at 1000 was "One Great Day..." which was in fact a 2nd pressing, (the first run being 2500) and that has now sold out as well.
As for people making/trading CDRs of live broadcasts, the only way you can avoid that is not to do these live broadcasts.
I wasn't so much talking about the trading of the radio broadcasts as the making and trading of tapes made surreptitiously by audience members. I just mentioned the poor sound quality of the radio stuff to point out that the walkman stuff is even worse.
As for your not wanting me or anyone else to rip one of your tunes into a compilation, I'll cease. But I have done it in the past, and to good results. I've personally been responsible for the creation of ten active Eskelin consumers in my neighborhood
Well I do appreciate that. But I have to think that on balance my music can't be that much harder to find than most other folks in this niche. Compilations among friends can be fine and good but as I said before, it's a fine line between that and simply trading CDRs of discs outright. Not that you do that but I know that it happens because people write and tell me so. And so I'm left to guess whether this works for or against me in the end.
(one of them even recently paid about 30 bucks for a copy of SETTING THE STANDARD at one of those collectable jazz sites).
Jeez, that's too bad. He could have gotten from the label, or even directly from me for far less. The internet makes that pretty easy.
My position was that receptive people should hear Ellery Eskelin, and, damn it, I'd play it for 'em.
I think word of mouth is cool. Playing it for them is great. But giving them a digital copy, I start to wonder. It starts down a slippery slope. But jeez, I'm not gonna come after you if I find out you put a cut of mine on a sampler for someone. Hell, maybe I should pay you! I hesitated to even write in about this and I'm wondering now if perhaps I shouldn't have since I really don't want to make too big a deal out of it. Obviously we've all made cassettes for other people at one time or another. And we can each vouch for our own morals and the fact that we've bought a jillion CDs and are otherwise cool. And who knows, maybe for this music the point is moot anyway since I don't think the numbers are ever gonna be so high as to amount to a huge gain or loss for folks like us who are not in the pop field. But on the other hand with these small independents the difference of 500 to 1000 copies bought has an impact. And I have no real way of knowing the net effect of digital trading of my music. But I do know that without my record company I'd be making a hell of a lot less music, live or otherwise. So you'll understand if I raise these questions.
If you really want to stem the tide of this sort of activity, maybe you could post your own mp3s on your website, which would do much to control what of yours is in the digital air.
Point is well taken and I may yet post some selections. I haven't done it yet since it's tough for me to decide what's most representative of our sound. There's no one or two or even three tunes that sum up what we do. That's why I like the presentation of the CDs since it's an integrated package of music, all the elements holding each other together, not just a collection of tunes. Having the entire CD is a much better way to experience it and I think there's a much better chance that folks will like it if they hear the whole presentation. So I present as much info on the web site as I can to interest folks, and make it as easy as possible for them to buy a disc. It's not a ton of money comparative to other endeavors and if they don't like it they can give it to a friend. Beyond that, the best way to recruit new listeners is to bring them to a live show. We've have been playing (me Andrea Parkins & Jim Black) for almost 10 years and this more than anything seems to build an audience. Of course, we can't be everywhere and some places we'll rarely if ever play so that's one of the reasons to make CDs in the first place.
The magazines can give out all the props, but the easiest way for someone to decide if they want to buy some music -- at a time when music is so damn expensive -- is to hear some of it in the first place.
Well, I'd like to think that for an investment of $10 to $20 someone could take a chance on my stuff and wind up digging it. Seems to me that it's never been easier to find and procure music. If anything it's harder to be heard over the din of the crowd. Maybe a little mystery is not such a bad thing. I recall John Zorn telling me that he sold more copies of any particular Tzadik release with no promotion whatsoever as compared to similar labels that did promotion with all the trimmings. So go figure...
Artists/listeners like you and me have less representation in the media than at any other time in the last thirty years
Actually I feel as if it's gotten much better in the last 30 years. There seem to be more magazines than ever, more independent labels than ever and now with the internet it's very easy for folks to pinpoint what they want and get it.
(Did all the circulation of song poem tapes curtail any kind of interest in Rodd?
Why would it curtail interest? I wasn't arguing that dissemination of my work would curtail interest. I'm just concerned about the balance between what might be considered promotional and what might actually work against me.
Ardolino had been sending me tapes with that stuff included for years.
Yes, before they were otherwise available.
Unavoidable bottom line for us all: Self-digitizing is part of the landscape now and it's not going away.
Yes but that doesn't mean that if enough people think it's OK to get my music for free as opposed to paying for it that I'm required to be happy about that. And that potential is there.
If certain members of the audience want to take upon themselves to broaden the audience, that is to be commended, especially if they're getting the message to people who otherwise don't know it exists. I can only be thankful.
Well, I appreciate the feeling behind that. I'm not even trying to contradict you, just offer you what's going on in my mind as I pursue this. I completely understand what you are saying. I simply see a certain amount of gray area here and without a crystal ball we're all at something of a loss. I might not be 100% correct but no one really knows what the hell is going to happen. And it's OK if I turn out to be wrong. Just wanted to share... Thanks Skip EE ================================= ELLeRY ESKELiN/MiCHELLE VAn NaTTA RaMiChElLeRy/PrImE SoUrCe PrOdUcTiOnS http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/ =================================
I hesitated to even write in about this and I'm wondering now if perhaps I shouldn't have since I really don't want to make too big a deal out of it. Obviously we've all made cassettes for other people at one time or another. And we can each vouch for our own morals and the fact that we've bought a jillion CDs and are otherwise cool. And who knows, maybe for this music the point is moot anyway since I don't think the numbers are ever gonna be so high as to amount to a huge gain or loss for folks like us who are not in the pop field.
But on the other hand with these small independents the difference of 500 to 1000 copies bought has an impact. And I have no real way of knowing the net effect of digital trading of my music. But I do know that without my record company I'd be making a hell of a lot less music, live or otherwise. So you'll understand if I raise these questions.
I think -- and this is something I'm pretty sure about -- that the bulk of the audience for this music is real devotees who really want to own the whole package. Plus, again, Americans are lazy and materialistic. They prefer to buy things rather than to make things. Also, I've rarely ever had someone just burn me a CD of an available record. There's no fun in that for the guy doing the burning. he doesn't get to DO anything fun by means of presenting it. And fanatics really pride themselves on their compilation abilities. HIGH FIDELITY was accurate in that respect.
That's why I like the presentation of the CDs since it's an integrated package of music, all the elements holding each other together, not just a collection of tunes.
I agree as a guy who makes records. But as a guy who makes compilations (at least one of which lives in your crib, if I remember), I like putting together compilations that have MY concept of elements holding things together. It's one of the joys of being a music fanatic. How else could you find out that "One Great Day" goes so well between "Sir Duke" and the "Masque" mvt of bernstein's AGE OF ANXIETY?
Having the entire CD is a much better way to experience it and I think there's a much better chance that folks will like it if they hear the whole presentation. So I present as much info on the web site as I can to interest folks, and make it as easy as possible for them to buy a disc. It's not a ton of money comparative to other endeavors and if they don't like it they can give it to a friend.
If your record budget is fifty bucks every two weeks (which is a general figure for enough people I know), twenty bucks for something you've only heard/read ABOUT is a pretty big chunk. Also, returning something to Amazon or wherever is a huge hassle, and, when you get away from sizable cities, amazon is what many people know about in terms of getting the sort of non-pop product of which we're speaking.
Well, I'd like to think that for an investment of $10 to $20 someone could take a chance on my stuff and wind up digging it.
Ten to twenty bucks is a lot of money to put up on spec like that, tho. Although I'll vouch for the quality of your work.
Seems to me that it's never been easier to find and procure music. If anything it's harder to be heard over the din of the crowd. Maybe a little mystery is not such a bad thing. I recall John Zorn telling me that he sold more copies of any particular Tzadik release with no promotion whatsoever as compared to similar labels that did promotion with all the trimmings. So go figure...
There's too much music now to assume an informed consumer decision. The numbers of records... it's just too much to go near. "Zorn" has become a credible brand name, like "hardcore" or "no wave", so obviously stuff that comes out under his aegis gets to take a shortcut, because he's already established an audience.
Artists/listeners like you and me have less representation in the media than at any other time in the last thirty years
Actually I feel as if it's gotten much better in the last 30 years. There seem to be more magazines than ever, more independent labels than ever and now with the internet it's very easy for folks to pinpoint what they want and get it.
Well, there's more little ones and websites than previously. But for folks to pinpoint what they want, they have to know they want it. That there are more indie labels is often problematic. The days of OPTION and a treasured few others being one of the handful of places where you knew to look are long over. Now there are just too many little places and not enough (relatively) big ones to look into. And they're not as easy to stumble onto as it used to be. I remember buying a magazine with James Chance on the cover and stumbling onto an article about Don Cherry, leading me to my first Cherry purchase. With the net, you have to have a little more knowledge of what you're looking for.
I'm just concerned about the balance between what might be considered promotional and what might actually work against me.
For all practical purposes, that's the audience's decision. The grey area is there, but, if they love the music and want to bring people to it, you can't stop them, except by alienating them about how they go about it. I don't think anyone is really trying to distribute whole Ellery CDs for free. I think they're trying to get people to buy Ellery CDs of their own.
Yes but that doesn't mean that if enough people think it's OK to get my music for free as opposed to paying for it that I'm required to be happy about that. And that potential is there.
You've gotta trust the audience to be in your corner. When your sales are usually about 1000 records (as mine are), your interaction with the people who buy the records and see the shows is more telescoped than, say, what even someone like Josh redman deals with. So they're a little more sensitive, because they check out not only what you do on disc, but your professional big picture. The audience has enough discretion to find its way towards this music. They probably -- with the exception of that cretin who wanted you to sign his CDR -- have the discretion and good faith not to cost you sales. as ever -- sh
skip Heller wrote:
The grey area is there, but, if they love the music and want to bring people to it, you can't stop them, except by alienating them about how they go about it.
Hi, Well this is kinda what I was getting at by having said perhaps I shouldn't have written in on this one. I certainly do not wish to alienate anyone, least of all you.
I don't think anyone is really trying to distribute whole Ellery CDs for free.
But when folks write to me and tell me that they know it happens I have to take that at face value. People are gonna do what they want and I understand that. Just so long as folks understand how I feel about it then it's up to them to decide what they think is best. I'd just like to feel that I'm part of that equation. It gets a little ridiculous for me to go around telling people not to share a track with a person who is likely to want to buy a disc and I kinda feel like an idiot for saying as much to you. But at the same time I cannot endorse this policy wholesale across the board since not everyone is as altruistically minded as yourself. Love & Kisses, EE PS Hey, speaking of Rodd Keith, have you heard about the song - poem film that's gonna air on PBS in February? I just saw a rough cut and I gotta say, it's unbelievable. Here's the press release... http://www.itvs.org/pressroom/pressRelease.htm?pressId=158 ================================= ELLeRY ESKELiN/MiCHELLE VAn NaTTA RaMiChElLeRy/PrImE SoUrCe PrOdUcTiOnS http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/ =================================
participants (2)
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Ellery Eskelin -
skip Heller