On 7/1/03 1:35 PM, "Craig Lieske" <garbageisland@hotmail.com> wrote:

The thing that bothers me about all this "criticism" on this list is that you people take such an adversarial stance against someone trying to do something musically.

No one minds the music so much. It's just the words.

but has anyone read an OBI strip on a Tzadik CD lately?

Nope. I stopped reading those a long time ago.

if someone is trying to stretch boundaries, however naively or poorly they try, these people deserve support, not scorn. Don't knock someone down for trying something new or different.

Like Kurt Gottschalk said a long time ago here, why should we praise failed experiments? Or as Patrice Roussel might say, consumers aren't therapists.

You like it or it doesn't move you. Save the fucking condescention for your next tea party!

Zornlisters don't have tea parties. They prefer coffee klatches, where they can condescend capriciously with cake and cappuccinos.

on 6/30/03 9:35 PM, Craig Lieske at garbageisland@hotmail.com wrote:

Hey guys, give this Pomegranate a chance. Nels Cline is on it, and I guarantee you the guitar parts are "creative". I haven't heard this thing, but if it's close to anything I heard Nels play last month at Tonic with Scott Amendola's quartet, then it has to great. During one section Nels ripped off the most amazing and, yes, that weak word again, "creative" solos I've ever heard anybody play in my life. I have played guitar for 20 years, and I've never heard anything like that before.

I prefer "creative" an adjective (exactly as you've used it here), not as a genre.

The thing that bothers me about all this "criticism" on this list is that you people take such an adversarial stance against someone trying to do something musically. Sure, the language in the press release was a little blown out of proportion, but has anyone read an OBI strip on a Tzadik CD lately?

Personally, I take an adversarial stance against a term that -- by nature of the definition of the word -- elevates itself above other forms. "Creative musician Ellery Eskelin" has a little more status than "jazz muscian Gene Ammons", which implies that a musician such as Ellery's aims are somehow higher than a musician such as Gene Ammons'. I think that conclusion would be classist and racist.

I've been involved in experimental music one way or another for a long time and it is my firm belief that if someone is trying to stretch boundaries, however naively or poorly they try, these people deserve support, not scorn. Don't knock someone down for trying something new or different.

Can we knock the elitist bastards who come up with terms like "creative music" or "alternative"? Any really interesting music is creative, and any music that doesn't conform to widespread industry/audience desires is an alternative. But using the term "creative music" to describe a certain crop of improvisors is condescending to any players not wishing to align themselves with that style -- they're not "creative". I would hope to Christ musicians didn't come up with a term so arrogant as to say just by playing in a certain genre, they're working the superior side of the street. And I don't think experimental music automatically deserves any special treatment above any other music. The hard work, craftmanship, and ingenuity to make ANYTHING really good should be appreciated, whether the medium is Top 40, ska, jazz, whatever. There's been as high a percentage of bad experimental music as bad anything else. But it's some bullshit to say "This artist is superior because his GENRE is superior".

It's funny how , in the rock world, bands like Sabbath and Led Zeppelin were universally scorned by critics in the 70's. Now these assholes arelining up to retro-sing praises to these guys. Save the hard line for the poor fuckers who deserve it.

You couldn't be more right. Those guys should be taken to task, along with any punk rock band who used to sing about class issues and now lets their music be used to sell Jaguars. And, to be accurate, Led Zep were not at all uviversally scorened by the critics in the 70s (find a pile of old Rolling Stone, Creem, and Circus mags and check out how lauded they were). But Black Sabbath were definitely tied to the whipping post.

You like it or it doesn't move you. Save the fucking condescention for your next tea party!

Niels Cline is "creative music" and Jim Hall is merely "jazz"? Now tell me where the condescension is? And watch who you accuse of having tea parties. Some of us are just a little bit ornery and quite threatening. Steve Smith has seen me break a vienna roll with my bare hands. I don't want to resort to a display like that again, but if I have to... skip h NP: "Sk8r Boi" -- Avril Levine (or however you spell it).