It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently: <<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >> While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets. If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone together, let alone play anything on it. Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two six-packs," wouldn't it. You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally shit-faced, which is something I would never do. This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job. I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying to set the record straight. --Jeb Bishop jebbishop3@earthlink.net
Not only was a complimenting your playing (to which I find few comparisons), but I was complimenting how well you seemed to hold your alcohol. You appeared completely lucid throughout both sets. Never was it my intent to portray you as a drunk who could not even put his instrument together; if one did construe such comments as such, that would quite fallacious. Your playing was in top form and always compelling, it was a shame the quieter sections of your solos were obscured by the din emanating from downstairs. Despite a hyperbole on the number (which I was not consciously counting) of drinks you consumed, I'm not sure why you took such offense to my comments-- which in no way were meant to slander you. If I was really out to slander you, would not I have insulted your playing? This is not an apology, by the way; just straightening out the record. Zach Steiner -----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jeb Bishop Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 4:31 PM To: zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com Subject: correction It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently: <<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >> While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets. If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone together, let alone play anything on it. Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two six-packs," wouldn't it. You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally shit-faced, which is something I would never do. This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job. I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying to set the record straight. --Jeb Bishop jebbishop3@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
Zach, You need to remember that Mr Bishop has probably worked hard to get where he is for about as long as you've been alive, and that even a rumor that he's getting loaded before he plays might cost him work - that's his professional reputation you're talking about, and anyone who cares about their job, forklift driver or improvisor, will be furious if you call that reputation into question. Imagine if someone wrote in your school newspaper that they saw you drink 10 beers right before class. -Chris At 04:41 PM 11/29/2003, Zach Steiner wrote:
Not only was a complimenting your playing (to which I find few comparisons), but I was complimenting how well you seemed to hold your alcohol. You appeared completely lucid throughout both sets. Never was it my intent to portray you as a drunk who could not even put his instrument together; if one did construe such comments as such, that would quite fallacious. Your playing was in top form and always compelling, it was a shame the quieter sections of your solos were obscured by the din emanating from downstairs. Despite a hyperbole on the number (which I was not consciously counting) of drinks you consumed, I'm not sure why you took such offense to my comments-- which in no way were meant to slander you. If I was really out to slander you, would not I have insulted your playing?
This is not an apology, by the way; just straightening out the record.
Zach Steiner
-----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jeb Bishop Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 4:31 PM To: zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com Subject: correction
It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently:
<<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >>
While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets.
If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone together, let alone play anything on it.
Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two six-packs," wouldn't it.
You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally shit-faced, which is something I would never do.
This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job.
I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying to set the record straight.
--Jeb Bishop
jebbishop3@earthlink.net
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Chris Selvig
Your original statement said nothing about my playing at the gig in question; you said only that you like my playing on the Vandermark 5 CDs and that I was drunk at the gig you saw. It would be easy for someone to infer that my alleged drunken state was reflected in my playing, and that if I was drunk on that gig I am probably drunk at other gigs as well. You now say I was lucid and my playing was in top form, and that you didn't see me drink large amounts of beer, so I wonder where you got the idea that I was drunk at all. In any case, the point is not whether I played well at the gig, or whether I hold my liquor well, but rather that you told hundreds of people around the world, falsely and on no evidence, that I was drunk on a gig. This is exactly how rumors get started about people. The membership of this list includes a lot of people who are interested in music that I am involved in and who might well come to see me play, or might even be involved in organizing shows I'm involved in. These people care about music and talk about it with each other and with others beyond this list. It is potentially extremely damaging to me for you to disseminate information that could lead to a widespread perception that I am routinely drunk on gigs or that I have a drinking problem. That kind of rumor, once started, can be very difficult to stamp out. In fact, before you posted your reply I got a message (privately to me, and not to the list, I believe) from another list member who saw my correction and who said: <<I don't know Zach Steiner from Adam's housecat except as a fellow Zornlister, and my general tendency is to trust and believe strangers until I'm given a reason not to. Thanks for setting the record straight. I regret that you had to.>> This illustrates the problem perfectly. If you put this kind of horseshit out there, people will believe it. If you can't see why I would take offense at that, I don't think I can explain it to you. --Jeb Bishop ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zach Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu> To: "'Jeb Bishop'" <jebbishop3@earthlink.net>; <zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 6:41 PM Subject: RE: correction
Not only was a complimenting your playing (to which I find few comparisons), but I was complimenting how well you seemed to hold your alcohol. You appeared completely lucid throughout both sets. Never was it my intent to portray you as a drunk who could not even put his instrument together; if one did construe such comments as such, that would quite fallacious. Your playing was in top form and always compelling, it was a shame the quieter sections of your solos were obscured by the din emanating from downstairs. Despite a hyperbole on the number (which I was not consciously counting) of drinks you consumed, I'm not sure why you took such offense to my comments-- which in no way were meant to slander you. If I was really out to slander you, would not I have insulted your playing?
This is not an apology, by the way; just straightening out the record.
Zach Steiner
-----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jeb Bishop Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 4:31 PM To: zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com Subject: correction
It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently:
<<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >>
While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets.
If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone together, let alone play anything on it.
Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two six-packs," wouldn't it.
You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally shit-faced, which is something I would never do.
This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job.
I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying to set the record straight.
--Jeb Bishop
jebbishop3@earthlink.net
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Now everybody seems to have had to much to drink, why everybody just needs to kick in and give it another blow. suddently all the moral fingers, i think the point was made my two pesos
Dear Jeb, First of all, I want to say thank you for the music you are playing. The trio CD you put on Okka Disk is one of my favorite albums. Second, please, excuse me my bad English. As of the ridiculous statement you were trying to clear up, I would say that bringing this topic back to discussion is probably not the best thing to do. People might not remember who was right and who was wrong, but now they most certainly will remember that there was some issue about drinking too much during the gig. I had experience like that (not drinking too much, but being accused doing something that I didn't) and I can say that in the media such as internet the best thing to do is to ignore the jerks who come up with the crappy statements like that. Otherwise it is just letting search engines (e.g. general public) to connect your name with the name of a bastard and to make the topic much more known than it was before. Sorry, if it sounded like I was trying to teach you or something, but having experience producing big web projects, I know how these things work. PS If you would like to have some more borscht, please come to the next New York Vision Festival. As a person responsible for the kitchen there, I can promise that you'll have some. And I will be really happy to see you amongst the participants of the festival either with you own projects or as a member of V5. -- All the best, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/ Saturday, November 29, 2003, you wrote to me: JB> It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently: JB> <<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially JB> in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite JB> having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >> JB> While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my JB> alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink JB> before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets. JB> If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls JB> of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If JB> I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone JB> together, let alone play anything on it. JB> Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely JB> false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier JB> makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of JB> beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two JB> six-packs," wouldn't it. JB> You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or JB> eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing JB> this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. JB> People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally JB> shit-faced, which is something I would never do. JB> This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe JB> that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're JB> talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your JB> fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job. JB> I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying JB> to set the record straight. JB> --Jeb Bishop JB> jebbishop3@earthlink.net JB> _______________________________________________ JB> zorn-list mailing list JB> zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com JB> To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below JB> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
Although I totally agree with most of the comments on this series of postings, I'm quite surprised that nobody felt outraged by the contents of that e-mail before Mr. Bishop decided to correct that false statement, misunderstanding, distorted appreciation or whatever happened. If there was something wrong about it (which I think there was, but I'd rather think it's just a mistake, regardless of its obvious bad consequences) it was already wrong before Mr. Bishop decided to jump into the matter. I think it would have been more suitable if both parts had solved this themselves withoud third parties chiming in. --- Peter Gannushkin <shkin@shkin.com> escribió: > Dear Jeb,
First of all, I want to say thank you for the music you are playing. The trio CD you put on Okka Disk is one of my favorite albums.
Second, please, excuse me my bad English.
As of the ridiculous statement you were trying to clear up, I would say that bringing this topic back to discussion is probably not the best thing to do. People might not remember who was right and who was wrong, but now they most certainly will remember that there was some issue about drinking too much during the gig. I had experience like that (not drinking too much, but being accused doing something that I didn't) and I can say that in the media such as internet the best thing to do is to ignore the jerks who come up with the crappy statements like that. Otherwise it is just letting search engines (e.g. general public) to connect your name with the name of a bastard and to make the topic much more known than it was before.
Sorry, if it sounded like I was trying to teach you or something, but having experience producing big web projects, I know how these things work.
PS If you would like to have some more borscht, please come to the next New York Vision Festival. As a person responsible for the kitchen there, I can promise that you'll have some. And I will be really happy to see you amongst the participants of the festival either with you own projects or as a member of V5.
-- All the best, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/
Saturday, November 29, 2003, you wrote to me:
JB> It came to my attention that Zach Steiner posted the following recently:
JB> <<Vandermark's albums (particularly V5) tend to be a bit insipid, especially JB> in contrast to their live shows. Jeb Bishop just shines throughout, despite JB> having almost two 6 packs the night I saw them. [...] >>
JB> While it is nice that Mr. Steiner enjoys my playing, the statement about my JB> alcohol consumption is completely untrue. I never have more than one drink JB> before the end of a gig -- generally I sip on one through two sets.
JB> If "the night I saw them" was the Indianapolis gig, I had had several bowls JB> of excellent homemade borscht, but nothing like that amount of alcohol. If JB> I'd had that much to drink, I'd have been unable to put the trombone JB> together, let alone play anything on it.
JB> Frankly, Mr. Steiner, the fact that you can so blithely make a completely JB> false statement like this annoys the shit out of me. The 'almost' qualifier JB> makes it sound as though you were following me around counting the number of JB> beers I'd had -- it would have to be ten or eleven to qualify as "almost two JB> six-packs," wouldn't it.
JB> You could not possibly have witnessed this, because I didn't drink ten or JB> eleven beers, or even two. But you nonetheless feel justified in publishing JB> this misinformation as if it was something you had first-hand knowledge of. JB> People reading it will then gain the belief that I did this gig totally JB> shit-faced, which is something I would never do.
JB> This was the last gig on a long tour and I was undoubtedly fatigued -- maybe JB> that's what you think was drunkenness. But if you don't know what you're JB> talking about -- as you clearly don't here -- then you should keep your JB> fucking mouth shut, rather than accusing me of being drunk on the job.
JB> I have no interest in hearing an apology from you, by the way. Just trying JB> to set the record straight.
JB> --Jeb Bishop
JB> jebbishop3@earthlink.net
JB> _______________________________________________ JB> zorn-list mailing list JB> zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com JB> To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below JB>
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on 11/30/03 10:38 AM, Efrén del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
Although I totally agree with most of the comments on this series of postings, I'm quite surprised that nobody felt outraged by the contents of that e-mail before Mr. Bishop decided to correct that false statement, misunderstanding, distorted appreciation or whatever happened.
Well, none of the rest of us were at the gig that Zach Steiner spoke of, so whether he said anything wrong was unknown. Why would you expect people with little or no knowledge of Jeb Bishop's drinking habits to be outraged by Zach's comment?
I think it would have been more suitable if both parts had solved this themselves withoud third parties chiming in.
What good would that have done? The only way for Jeb to clear his name was to make a statement in front of everyone on this list, which he did. As for third parties, I find it surprising that you would express surprise at the lack of outrage by third parties and then decry the fact that third parties have jumped in. (And, Efren, I don't think that this is one of those cases where the fact that English is not your first language is an issue.) As for the issue at hand, I don't believe that Zach realized how hurtful his comments could be. On the other hand, I can understand 150% why Jeb felt that he had to set the record straight. --Mike
Well, none of the rest of us were at the gig that Zach Steiner spoke of, so whether he said anything wrong was unknown. Why would you expect people with little or no knowledge of Jeb Bishop's drinking habits to be outraged by Zach's comment?
Simply because I think it's not appropiate to say such a thing about a musician. I didn't read Zach's original posting because I'm not interested in most of KV's projects. Many musicians' habits are often easy to notice, but I have never made any comments about it, at least in public. That's one of the points I agreed with everyone. I think the reaction should have been automatic and not provoked by Mr. Bishop's e-mail.
What good would that have done? The only way for Jeb to clear his name was to make a statement in front of everyone on this list, which he did.
Yes, but I think it was Zach who had to reply to him and nobody should have formed this sort of "front" precisely because nobody complained when the original message was posted. It's quite easy.
As for third parties, I find it surprising that you would express surprise at the lack of outrage by third parties and then decry the fact that third parties have jumped in. (And, Efren, I don't think that this is one of those cases where the fact that English is not your first language is an issue.)
No, thankfully I have understood this thread line by line, word by word. What I don't understand is your statement above, sorry. I "decry the fact that third parties have jumped in" because nobody did before Bishop's e-mail, as I have expressed quite clearly.
As for the issue at hand, I don't believe that Zach realized how hurtful his comments could be. On the other hand, I can understand 150% why Jeb felt that he had to set the record straight.
100% agreed. Efrén del Valle n.p: Charles Wuorinen "Lepton"
--Mike
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Some stuff to keep in mind before writing something like what was written about Jeb: 1. Newsgroups like this have become a legit part of people's research. Many people who research things do so because they are publishing articles or book chapters. Your pinheaded "observation" of someone's alleged chemical intake could end up as a factoid in a book or an article -- "Reportedly, So-And-So was drunk during at least one show of that tour" is the likely result of an ill-founded statement. 2. Writing in a public forum is like publishing -- it's stored and can be retrieved. This means it is more like a periodical and less like graffiti. 3. Even in the world of free jazz, where allegedly anything goes, being unprofessional is not good. Jeb has a pretty spotless reputation, not only for his musicianship, but also for his professionalism. Professionalism means he's on time, bathed, his equipment works, and he's not in a chemically altered state. Publishing -- electronically or otherwise -- a report to the contrary is slander, unless you have some way to back up your claim. It's also gossip. skip h np: louis armstrong, complete hot fives and hot sevens
On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 01:47 PM, skip heller wrote:
Some stuff to keep in mind before writing something like what was written about Jeb:
Publishing -- electronically or otherwise -- a report to the contrary is slander, unless you have some way to back up your claim.
Libel, actually, but otherwise...yeah. Pedantic in MS
participants (9)
-
Arthur Rother -
Chris Selvig -
Efrén del Valle -
Jeb Bishop -
Mike Chamberlain -
Peter Gannushkin -
skip heller -
William Crump -
Zach Steiner