In a message dated 7/23/02 7:40:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, proussel@ichips.intel.com writes: << Notice the two prevailing arguments:
1. America has no culture (What about the Simpsons?) 2. America is destorying the culture of other nations to sell it's own(What about the Simpsons?)
on 7/23/02 4:49 PM, Nvinokur@aol.com at Nvinokur@aol.com wrote:
2. America is destorying the culture of other nations to sell it's own
at the risk of sounding antagonistic, we're not forcing anyone abroad to buy our culture. you don't have to be an american to be tasteless. madonna sells lotsa records in france because french people want to buy madonna records. it ain't because of some big plot to thwart the success of alain bashung. skip h
Hello Skip, Even though I don't think there is a real problem in American culture spreading, I have to disagree with you about forcing. It is quite obvious that American corporations use all their facilities to spread to markets other than American. It doesn't really matter is it KFC "restaurant", Madonna's music or Hollywood movie. The methods and results are basically the same: huge investments in ads, reduced prices in the beginning, prepaid critics' articles (so called hidden advertisement) and then big sales and dominating among domestic products, which often cannot compete with lower quality but bigger money American ones. Wednesday, July 24, 2002, you wrote to me:
2. America is destorying the culture of other nations to sell it's own
sH> at the risk of sounding antagonistic, we're not forcing anyone abroad to buy sH> our culture. you don't have to be an american to be tasteless. madonna sH> sells lotsa records in france because french people want to buy madonna sH> records. it ain't because of some big plot to thwart the success of alain sH> bashung. NP: Don Byron "Bug Music" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:59:37 +0200 Peter Gannushkin wrote:
Hello Skip,
Even though I don't think there is a real problem in American culture spreading, I have to disagree with you about forcing. It is quite obvious that American corporations use all their facilities to spread to markets other than American. It doesn't really matter is it KFC "restaurant", Madonna's music or Hollywood movie. The methods and results are basically the same: huge investments in ads, reduced prices in the beginning, prepaid critics' articles (so called hidden advertisement) and then big sales and dominating among domestic products, which often cannot compete with lower quality but bigger money American ones.
This is quite naive and, as usual, amplifies the victimized aspect of the problem (people have no choice, are forced fed, brainwashed, etc (put your favorite conspiracy theory here)). There are situations where ad campaigns can successfully brainwash people, but most of the time the product succeeds because it fulfills a need (whereas you like it or not, such as people's fascination for trash on TV). Ad budget in our field (the music we cover) is almost useless since each product is different (I mean, you don't choose Wynton over John because Wynton's record is $1 less) and the ad budget would cost too much in regard of the targetted audience, anyway. I can tell you that the success of Fast food chains in France was a big surprise for everybody, and there was no big budget ad campaign brainwashing to induce people to go buy a BigMac. The cases that you describe (where the need is forced fed) is almost an exception (it might work at first due to the thrill of novelty, but if not backed up by something more solid, it never last). Maybe your problem is that you don't understand (or don't want to) people's need at large. Do you really believe that Derek Bailey backed up by Turner could fill arenas? Do you feel that French kids who go to MacDonald are not aware of the existence of French cuisine? Maybe it is better to use conspiracy theories instead of facing the fact that we are (specially when obscessed with obscure forms of arts) clueless (at best), or ashamed (at worst) of people's need at large. Patrice (who's pretty sure that at one time his defence of American culture at large will be interpreted as defence of the current administration...).
on 7/24/02 9:30 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
Hello Skip,
Even though I don't think there is a real problem in American culture spreading, I have to disagree with you about forcing. It is quite obvious that American corporations use all their facilities to spread to markets other than American. It doesn't really matter is it KFC "restaurant", Madonna's music or Hollywood movie. The methods and results are basically the same: huge investments in ads, reduced prices in the beginning, prepaid critics' articles (so called hidden advertisement) and then big sales and dominating among domestic products, which often cannot compete with lower quality but bigger money American ones.
Huge ad investment up front? Prepaid critical raves? You sure we're not recounting the markeying strategy from when Medeski, Martin, and Wood got signed to Blue Note? You can spread anything you wat to any market you want, and you can advertise as much as you like. If somebody buys and likes KFC the first time they try it, they're gonna buy more KFC. That's how KFC gets to stay in the marketplace. The means by which one is enticed to that first piece of KFC chicken might overdominating, but if people eat it and decide they wanna eat more, where's the application of force? I'm not not one of these people who believes that if millions of people were exposed to John Zorn then millions of people would like John Zorn. You could advertise it all you want, but TORTURE GARDEN is not meant for everybody. Doesn't make it bad. Just makes it designed for a more specialized audience. It's a miracle that records like that can get in print and stay in print, and I'm thankful for that. American corporations might be making vertain kinds of artists relatively unavoidable in terms of hearing their music -- Norah Jones leaps to mind at the moment -- but this has doesn't mean I think she's the only game in town. It's my money, it's up to me. skip h np: janis siegel -- i wish you love
Hello Skip, I wasn't talking about proposing any product, however, in some cases you can make popular things which would not be any popular without huge money. What I said is that when average (read not interesting for some sophisticated customers, but good for "normal" ones) local products try to compete with "big money" well advertised global goods, the situation is quite predictable. Do you really think that KFC or Burger King are better than thousands of small grilled chicken and burger places? NP: Fiuczynski's Headless Torsos "Amandal" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/
on 7/24/02 12:28 PM, Peter Gannushkin at shkin@shkin.com wrote:
Do you really think that KFC or Burger King are better than thousands of small grilled chicken and burger places?
If you're craving a bucket of extra crispy (as I do from time to time), KFC is exactly what you need. Some food, like some music, is for nourishment, and some is just for fun. Just like Li'l Kim is not designed for the same listening purposes as Sarah Vaughn. skip h
Hello Skip, See, you're saying "KFC is exactly what you need" because they have enough money to make the brand recognizable. Probably the little store on the corner has better chicken but you won't go there if you don't know the place. And this is pretty common situation in many countries including America itself. The other thing is that in small places you have no choice at all no matter what are you craving for. People who live in the towns with no internet, two TV channels, one radio station and four restaurants would not understand what are we talking about. They don't know anything about the food besides KFC or whatever they have. Thursday, July 25, 2002, you wrote to me: sH> on 7/24/02 12:28 PM, Peter Gannushkin at shkin@shkin.com wrote:
Do you really think that KFC or Burger King are better than thousands of small grilled chicken and burger places?
sH> If you're craving a bucket of extra crispy (as I do from time to time), KFC sH> is exactly what you need. Some food, like some music, is for nourishment, sH> and some is just for fun. Just like Li'l Kim is not designed for the same sH> listening purposes as Sarah Vaughn. NP: Yann Tiersen "Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amelie Poulin" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/
on 7/24/02 11:57 PM, Peter Gannushkin at shkin@shkin.com wrote:
Hello Skip,
See, you're saying "KFC is exactly what you need" because they have enough money to make the brand recognizable. Probably the little store on the corner has better chicken but you won't go there if you don't know the place. And this is pretty common situation in many countries including America itself.
Actually, I'm one of those guys who goes looking for places to eat. And I live right near Roscoe's, a little chicken & waffle place of legend (check out Notorious BIG's "Goin' Back To Cali"). And I'm saying "SOMETIMES" KFC has what you need. Damn, this is making me want a bucket of original recipe.
The other thing is that in small places you have no choice at all no matter what are you craving for. People who live in the towns with no internet, two TV channels, one radio station and four restaurants would not understand what are we talking about. They don't know anything about the food besides KFC or whatever they have.
These places are fewer and further between these days, in America. I get email fr places that I can't believe. skip h
I'm not not one of these people who believes that if millions of people were exposed to John Zorn then millions of people would like John Zorn. You could advertise it all you want, but TORTURE GARDEN is not meant for everybody. But there IS a market for it, be it not as huge as the big labels wuld want them to be. I figure 35,000 is a big amount of records (Bar Khokba) when you consider it's only one title in this huge catalogue of Zorn and related musics. Torture Garden has to concur with all of the similar records out of Tzadik and Avant, let alone other people working in this fringe of noise/ metal and improv.
There's just so much of this stuff, it comes close to Eugene Chadbournes remark of the one guy selling a million records (Michael Jackson f.i.) opposed to the guy selling one record each, of a million different titles. But all in all, jazz record markets being only a few percents of the whole music buying audience, it stays relatively small. Remco Doesn't make it bad. Just makes it designed for a more
specialized audience. It's a miracle that records like that can get in print and stay in print, and I'm thankful for that. American corporations might be making vertain kinds of artists relatively unavoidable in terms of hearing their music -- Norah Jones leaps to mind at the moment -- but this has doesn't mean I think she's the only game in town. It's my money, it's up to me.
skip h
np: janis siegel -- i wish you love
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on 7/24/02 3:40 PM, Remco Takken at r.takken@planet.nl wrote:
But all in all, jazz record markets being only a few percents of the whole music buying audience, it stays relatively small.
which I don't think is a bad thing. it just means the clientele is smaller. if you go into a certain kind of music that historically only works to a smaller crowd, you shouldn't complain that Michael Jackson -- who I think has made some fantastic records, BTW -- is getting a bigger market share than you. BAR KOKHBA was definitely a lucky strike for Zorn, and he deserves whatever $'s come his way. But I think 35,000 is not something we can all really shoot for. Personally, I always feel lucky when my records sell enough to pay for themselves. skip h
I agree with Patrice here. My brother and sisters think I'm weird because I go out of my way to eat "exotic" food or listen to strange music. I don't really think of it as going out of my way at all, but rather finding the things I enjoy. My brother and sisters do the same things, but the things they enjoy are more popular and therefore easier to find. They like things like country music, Metallica, bowling, stock car racing, steak and hamburgers, doing home improvement projects, etc. Not that I don't also enjoy at least some of those things, but I don't expect most people to go out of their way to find odder stuff when what they want is right in front of them. I don't think it's due to a lack of access that my sisters don't have any Sun Ra albums, they've heard the music at my house (or at my wedding!) and still don't like it. Even if something odd becomes somewhat popular and gets advertising and word of mouth promotion or whatever, it's usually just a fluke. For example the "bluegrass" resurgence due to O Brother Where Art Thou. My family thinks that's one weird movie, I thought it was a cute take on Homer. So, while advertising and what not are certainly powerful tools (otherwise no one would bother to use them), I think that all the folks in at least the US and Canada and Japan and Australia and Europe really have enough knowledge and choices that they can make their own decisions and we shouldn't feel too bad about it. Rob Patrice Roussell wrote: Maybe your problem is that you don't understand (or don't want to) people's need at large. Do you really believe that Derek Bailey backed up by Turner could fill arenas? Do you feel that French kids who go to MacDonald are not aware of the existence of French cuisine? Maybe it is better to use conspiracy theories instead of facing the fact that we are (specially when obscessed with obscure forms of arts) clueless (at best), or ashamed (at worst) of people's need at large.
So, * not less people would go to a blockbuster, if they wouldn't invest so much in ad campaign? * not more people would buy a Derek Bailey album if it would be advertised as they do with a new madonna album? Is that what you are saying?
I mean, you don't choose Wynton over John because Wynton's record is $1 less
Some of the last Zorn albums would fit right into the livingrooms of some McDonald eaters, it's just not brought to the public as much as Wynton, Micheal Jackson or others. Also Tzadik disks are pretty expensive, i have to listen to it twice before deciding to buy one. Buying music from big corporations is so much cheaper.
This is quite naive and, as usual, amplifies the victimized aspect of the problem (people have no choice, are forced fed, brainwashed, etc (put your favorite conspiracy theory here)).
I think to put it of as "conspiracy theories" is a bit overloaded, or making fun of people who say that a lot more crap is being advertised much louder than some "good stuff". And no, it's not a "conspiracy theory", it's how big business make bucks. It is ok to criticize these policies, because some of it pollutes. But you can not change that, only on political level.
Maybe your problem is that you don't understand (or don't want to) people's need at large
They can also create a need, you think they needed a McDonalds before McDonalds.
I can tell you that the success of Fast food chains in France was a big surprise for everybody, and there was no big budget ad campaign brainwashing to induce people to go buy a BigMac.
leaving away the cynical brainwashing, there was no big ad campaign in france?
who's pretty sure that at one time his defence of American culture at large will be interpreted as defence of the current administration...
/And, why do you support the current administration.../
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:40:53 +0200 Arthur Rother wrote:
who's pretty sure that at one time his defence of American culture at large will be interpreted as defence of the current administration...
/And, why do you support the current administration.../
And I thought I made it clear (that I was defending American culture and not the current administration)... Patrice.
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:40:53 +0200 Arthur Rother wrote:
who's pretty sure that at one time his defence of American culture at large will be interpreted as defence of the current administration...
/And, why do you support the current administration.../
And I thought I made it clear (that I was defending American culture and not the current administration)...
Patrice.
Sorry, I thought you where joking, so i was joking
Hello Patrice, It seems you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not that naive. :-) I just responded to the statement that there is no forcing in proposing of "American culture". That's it. NP: Kletka Red "Hijacking" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/
Hello, ....this type of situation goes on right here in the U.S. I live in a city with two multiplex movie theatres, and no other outlet for current cinema. Due to the promotional practices that you mention below, these theatres show the most obvious mainstream fare. Which meant that they passed on "The Man Who Wasn't There", Mulholland Drive", or currently the latest John Sayles pic, "Sunshine State". Now I'm an hour away from Wash. D.C., and could drive that distance to see the above films, but choose not to for economic reasons (I fit roughly in the lower-middle class demographic, and drive a cheap used car which would probably already be in a junkyard somewhere if I drove an hour every time something I was interested in came to the capital city). Certainly nobody's "forcing" me into this situation, because the alternative to living here is to save $$$ and find a more culturally enriched locale. Which I eventually plan on doing. But at this moment, they're probably showing more interesting American films in Paris than they are in Winchester, VA (title of a Chadbourne song BTW). I remain... Joseph NP: Valentina Ponomareva Ken Hyder Tim Hodgkinson- "The Goose" CD NR: Don Delillo- "The Body Artist" -----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Peter Gannushkin Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:00 AM To: skip Heller Subject: Re: what me worry Hello Skip, Even though I don't think there is a real problem in American culture spreading, I have to disagree with you about forcing. It is quite obvious that American corporations use all their facilities to spread to markets other than American. It doesn't really matter is it KFC "restaurant", Madonna's music or Hollywood movie. The methods and results are basically the same: huge investments in ads, reduced prices in the beginning, prepaid critics' articles (so called hidden advertisement) and then big sales and dominating among domestic products, which often cannot compete with lower quality but bigger money American ones. Wednesday, July 24, 2002, you wrote to me:
2. America is destorying the culture of other nations to sell it's own
sH> at the risk of sounding antagonistic, we're not forcing anyone abroad to buy sH> our culture. you don't have to be an american to be tasteless. madonna sH> sells lotsa records in france because french people want to buy madonna sH> records. it ain't because of some big plot to thwart the success of alain sH> bashung. NP: Don Byron "Bug Music" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ _______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
participants (8)
-
Arthur Rother -
josephneff -
Nvinokur＠aol.com -
Patrice L. Roussel -
Peter Gannushkin -
Remco Takken -
Robert Pleshar -
skip Heller