A good bunch of Tzadik releases
www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic! Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik) _______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sorteos ¡Ya puedes comprar LoterÃa de Navidad! http://yahoo.ventura24.es/
It's nice to see some activity in the Lunatic Fringe, Key Series, and Oracle Series. Yes, why must we have another Masada String Trio set? Is Zorn afraid nothing else will sell? Zach -----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Efrén del Valle Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:24 AM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: A good bunch of Tzadik releases www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic! Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik)
Well, you mustn't HAVE it. Cripes, theres a lot of bellyaching about what Zorn is releasing lately. If you don't need another MST disc, don't buy it. The guy is a mensch and puts out more discs by more deserving and off-the-wall artists than anyone around and people still have t ofind something to complain about. Sorry, that's just been bugging me for a while. It's not like anyone is forced to listen to these discs and if they sell well and subsidize discs by other people and other Zorn projects, all the better. So, if anyone looked at the Koch web page, they'd see that the next release in Zorn's 50th birthday series is John Zorn & Milford Graves duet also coming in the spring - Irving Stone Memorial Concert, Susie Ibarra trio, Alvin Curran. All in all, not really much to complain about if you ask me... Rob Quoting Zachary Steiner <zsteiner@butler.edu>:
It's nice to see some activity in the Lunatic Fringe, Key Series, and Oracle Series. Yes, why must we have another Masada String Trio set? Is Zorn afraid nothing else will sell?
Zach
-----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Efrén del Valle Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:24 AM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: A good bunch of Tzadik releases
www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic!
Best,
Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik)
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-- "Bones heal. Chicks dig scars. And the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world." -Capt. Lance Murdoch
Denying that Masada has been overexploited at this point seems pretty absurd. And with regards to those theoretical financing purposes, I don't see why a MST album should sell more than another Naked City live volume or something in the style of "The Gift". Of course nobody's forced to listen to all of his output, that's obvious, but I think that most of us were used to a more steady production rythm from the guy. Zorn even admitted in that Bomb Mag interview that he had slowed down too much and that he felt he had done nothing in 2002. 2003 has been even worse in that sense. Tzadik is still my favorite label and I get every single new release with only a few exceptions. But even so I find one single reason to complain, just one, if I may. --- Robert Pleshar <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu> escribió: > Well, you mustn't HAVE it. Cripes, theres a lot of
bellyaching about what Zorn is releasing lately. If you don't need another MST disc, don't buy it. The guy is a mensch and puts out more discs by more deserving and off-the-wall artists than anyone around and people still have t ofind something to complain about.
Sorry, that's just been bugging me for a while. It's not like anyone is forced to listen to these discs and if they sell well and subsidize discs by other people and other Zorn projects, all the better.
So, if anyone looked at the Koch web page, they'd see that the next release in Zorn's 50th birthday series is
John Zorn & Milford Graves duet
also coming in the spring - Irving Stone Memorial Concert, Susie Ibarra trio, Alvin Curran.
All in all, not really much to complain about if you ask me...
Rob
Quoting Zachary Steiner <zsteiner@butler.edu>:
It's nice to see some activity in the Lunatic Fringe, Key Series, and Oracle Series. Yes, why must we have another Masada String Trio set? Is Zorn afraid nothing else will sell?
Zach
-----Original Message----- From:
zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com]
On
Behalf Of Efrén del Valle Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:24 AM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: A good bunch of Tzadik releases
www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic!
Best,
Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik)
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Hell, there are still fewer Masada records than Ornette Coleman or Steve Lacy or Charlie Parker or Deep Purple, even. So, I think the real problem may be in your penultimate sentence. You really buy EVERY Tzadik release? You're bound to be dissapointed by some of them, then. Wow, I'm amazed really. Of course, you can complain if you want to, about as many things as you want. Just don't expect people to listen to a dead horse being beaten. (forthcoming CD release notwithstanding). Rob Quoting Efrén del Valle <efrendv@yahoo.es>:
Denying that Masada has been overexploited at this point seems pretty absurd. And with regards to those theoretical financing purposes, I don't see why a MST album should sell more than another Naked City live volume or something in the style of "The Gift". Of course nobody's forced to listen to all of his output, that's obvious, but I think that most of us were used to a more steady production rythm from the guy. Zorn even admitted in that Bomb Mag interview that he had slowed down too much and that he felt he had done nothing in 2002. 2003 has been even worse in that sense. Tzadik is still my favorite label and I get every single new release with only a few exceptions. But even so I find one single reason to complain, just one, if I may.
Hell, there are still fewer Masada records than Ornette Coleman or Steve Lacy or Charlie Parker or Deep Purple, even.
If we don't take Zorn's ever-changing nature into consideration, that couldn't be truer. In another interview with a Spanish magazine, he also said he hated to regurgitate the same music over and over again when asked about NC's decease. So, I think
the real problem may be in your penultimate sentence. You really buy EVERY Tzadik release? You're bound to be dissapointed by some of them, then. Wow, I'm amazed really.
Contrarily, I find them to be mostly satisfying, amazing in a very high percentage, but of course there are less appealing things like the RJC series, for instance. It's not about Tzadik or even Zorn. It's about Masada and more precisely the String Trio, I think. There's something about it... Efrén del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sorteos ¡Ya puedes comprar LoterÃa de Navidad! http://yahoo.ventura24.es/
Why don;t we just tell John Zorn what he should document and release, instead of letting him make his own decisions. Nobody tells Elliot Carter he's writing too many string quartets. Nobody tells Steve reich to write more pieces "in the style of" Tehillim. If you want a human jukebox to serve your entertainment needs, I'm sure there's a Jimmy Buffet list. But I don't think Zorn owes you output designed to your taste. The fact that he's still making anything at all is a miracle. The fact that he's still one of the more vital guys in the music is more than a miracle, given how much he's pout out. The fact that you want what you want and the artist's desires be damned -- well, maybe when you're done with John you can tell Douglas what to make and release. skip h on 12/11/03 7:31 AM, Efrén del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
Denying that Masada has been overexploited at this point seems pretty absurd. And with regards to those theoretical financing purposes, I don't see why a MST album should sell more than another Naked City live volume or something in the style of "The Gift". Of course nobody's forced to listen to all of his output, that's obvious, but I think that most of us were used to a more steady production rythm from the guy. Zorn even admitted in that Bomb Mag interview that he had slowed down too much and that he felt he had done nothing in 2002. 2003 has been even worse in that sense. Tzadik is still my favorite label and I get every single new release with only a few exceptions. But even so I find one single reason to complain, just one, if I may.
--- Robert Pleshar <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu> escribió: > Well, you mustn't HAVE it. Cripes, theres a lot of
bellyaching about what Zorn is releasing lately. If you don't need another MST disc, don't buy it. The guy is a mensch and puts out more discs by more deserving and off-the-wall artists than anyone around and people still have t ofind something to complain about.
Sorry, that's just been bugging me for a while. It's not like anyone is forced to listen to these discs and if they sell well and subsidize discs by other people and other Zorn projects, all the better.
So, if anyone looked at the Koch web page, they'd see that the next release in Zorn's 50th birthday series is
John Zorn & Milford Graves duet
also coming in the spring - Irving Stone Memorial Concert, Susie Ibarra trio, Alvin Curran.
All in all, not really much to complain about if you ask me...
Rob
Quoting Zachary Steiner <zsteiner@butler.edu>:
It's nice to see some activity in the Lunatic Fringe, Key Series, and Oracle Series. Yes, why must we have another Masada String Trio set? Is Zorn afraid nothing else will sell?
Zach
-----Original Message----- From:
zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com]
On
Behalf Of Efrén del Valle Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:24 AM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: A good bunch of Tzadik releases
www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic!
Best,
Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik)
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Heck no, Let's just gang up and tell Skip "what he should document and release" : ) Just kidding. An artist does as he or she pleases. Then it's up to us as informed consumers to decide whether we want to "buy in" or not to his or her vision. Ken Waxman --- skip heller <thisparadise@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Why don;t we just tell John Zorn what he should
document and release, instead of letting him make his own decisions.
Nobody tells Elliot Carter he's writing too many string quartets. Nobody tells Steve reich to write more pieces "in the style of" Tehillim.
If you want a human jukebox to serve your entertainment needs, I'm sure there's a Jimmy Buffet list. But I don't think Zorn owes you output designed to your taste. The fact that he's still making anything at all is a miracle. The fact that he's still one of the more vital guys in the music is more than a miracle, given how much he's pout out.
The fact that you want what you want and the artist's desires be damned -- well, maybe when you're done with John you can tell Douglas what to make and release.
skip h
on 12/11/03 7:31 AM, Efrén del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
Denying that Masada has been overexploited at this point seems pretty absurd. And with regards to those theoretical financing purposes, I don't see why a MST album should sell more than another Naked City live volume or something in the style of "The Gift". Of course nobody's forced to listen to all of his output, that's obvious, but I think that most of us were used to a more steady production rythm from the guy. Zorn even admitted in that Bomb Mag interview that he had slowed down too much and that he felt he had done nothing in 2002. 2003 has been even worse in that sense. Tzadik is still my favorite label and I get every single new release with only a few exceptions. But even so I find one single reason to complain, just one, if I may.
--- Robert Pleshar <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu> escribió: > Well, you mustn't HAVE it. Cripes, theres a lot of
bellyaching about what Zorn is releasing lately. If you don't need another MST disc, don't buy it. The guy is a mensch and puts out more discs by more deserving and off-the-wall artists than anyone around and people still have t ofind something to complain about.
Sorry, that's just been bugging me for a while. It's not like anyone is forced to listen to these discs and if they sell well and subsidize discs by other people and other Zorn projects, all the better.
So, if anyone looked at the Koch web page, they'd see that the next release in Zorn's 50th birthday series is
John Zorn & Milford Graves duet
also coming in the spring - Irving Stone Memorial Concert, Susie Ibarra trio, Alvin Curran.
All in all, not really much to complain about if you ask me...
Rob
Quoting Zachary Steiner <zsteiner@butler.edu>:
It's nice to see some activity in the Lunatic Fringe, Key Series, and Oracle Series. Yes, why must we have another Masada String Trio set? Is Zorn afraid nothing else will sell?
Zach
-----Original Message----- From:
zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:zorn-list-bounces+zsteiner=butler.edu@mailman.xmission.com]
On
Behalf Of Efrén del Valle Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:24 AM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: A good bunch of Tzadik releases
www.tzadik.com has been updated with the Jan/Feb 2004 releases. There are a few ones which look great, but I keep wondering why another Masada ST with so much happening last September at Tonic!
Best,
Efrén del Valle n.p: Marc Ribot "Scelsi Morning" (Tzadik)
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-- "Bones heal. Chicks dig scars. And the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world." -Capt. Lance Murdoch
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_______________________________________________________________
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http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
on 12/11/03 9:56 AM, Ken Waxman at mingusaum@yahoo.ca wrote:
An artist does as he or she pleases. Then it's up to us as informed consumers to decide whether we want to "buy in" or not to his or her vision.
Ken Waxman
I learned a long time ago not to consider myself too "informed" --- no matter how many albums I bought or interviews I read by an artist -- a long time ago. I learned that when an artist I admire starts making records I don't like, it's probably because what he feels compelled anough to record and put out is not the same thing as what I want to hear. The fact that I want to hear Joey Baron and Kermit Driscoll doesn;t make the recent crop of Frisell records bad. His adgenda as a player is different from mine as a listener. IT DOES NOT GIVE ME THE RIGHT TO TELL HIM WHAT HE SHOULD MAKE, WITH WHOM, NOR WHAT TO COMPOSE. As long as he's making what he makes with every bit of skill he has, I wish him well. I cast my vote at the record store. But I'm not arrogant enough to tell someone I admire that much what he should be doing, and respectful enough to keep my wishes to myself when speaking to artists whose path I maybe don;t feel like going down. Maybe that's maturity. sh
Skip, I think the problem with you is that you're only respectful (at least verbally) with other musicians. I'm under the impression that the rest of the mortal beings are dispensable to your eyes or do not deserve as much respect as the laymen. You're in a higher division maybe? I think my comment was nothing so serious for you to chime in in such manner. Again, I just said that I'm a bit tired of Masada String Trio releases, nothing more. You haven't discovered the Holy Grail by saying if you don't like that, go fuck yourself. That's too obvious and a bit childish too. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I like Zorn's "policy" so much. However, when someone says something negative about your heroes, you can't be objective enough to accept different opinions. Your truth is not universal, Skip. Nor is no one's. I don't find your cinism about the Dave Douglas argument we had here too impressive, to tell you the truth. Back then I thought "Freak In" sucks and I still do, regardless of the effort DD invested in its making. That doesn't make it a good album for me. You respect him? Me too. I don't think I'm entitled to say such a thing for any special reasons. As a consumer or fan or whatever I am entitled to have an opinion, even if it's NEGATIVE. Curiously enough, you've dismissed other musicians that you dislike (I particularly remember Björk) without a hint of respect and questioning their musical capabilities and nobody said anything. I haven't seen you claiming respect for other artists that have been clearly dismissed either, probably because you don't care at all about their music. To summarize, I think your reaction is totally over the top and a bit incoherent.
An artist does as he or she pleases. Then it's up to us as informed consumers to decide whether we want to "buy in" or not to his or her vision.
Ken Waxman
I learned a long time ago not to consider myself too "informed" --- no matter how many albums I bought or interviews I read by an artist -- a long time ago.
I learned that when an artist I admire starts making records I don't like, it's probably because what he feels compelled anough to record and put out is not the same thing as what I want to hear. The fact that I want to hear Joey Baron and Kermit Driscoll doesn;t make the recent crop of Frisell records bad. His adgenda as a player is different from mine as a listener. IT DOES NOT GIVE ME THE RIGHT TO TELL HIM WHAT HE SHOULD MAKE, WITH WHOM, NOR WHAT TO COMPOSE. As long as he's making what he makes with every bit of skill he has, I wish him well. I cast my vote at the record store.
But I'm not arrogant enough to tell someone I admire that much what he should be doing, and respectful enough to keep my wishes to myself when speaking to artists whose path I maybe don;t feel like going down.
Maybe that's maturity.
sh
_______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sorteos ¡Ya puedes comprar LoterÃa de Navidad! http://yahoo.ventura24.es/
on 12/11/03 12:03 PM, Efrén del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
Skip,
I think the problem with you is that you're only respectful (at least verbally) with other musicians. I'm under the impression that the rest of the mortal beings are dispensable to your eyes or do not deserve as much respect as the laymen. You're in a higher division maybe?
You'd have to ask Joseph Zitt, division commander and one of the few people with balls anough to like Weord Al publicly. Seriously -- people complaining that their favorite artists should release certain stuff or not release certain stuff deserve what for.
I think my comment was nothing so serious for you to chime in in such manner. Again, I just said that I'm a bit tired of Masada String Trio releases, nothing more.
Actuall, you wrote as follows: "Denying that Masada has been overexploited at this point seems pretty absurd. And with regards to those theoretical financing purposes, I don't see why a MST album should sell more than another Naked City live volume or something in the style of "The Gift". " End quote. I don;t think John Zorn feels the Masada music is over-exploited, and it's his to live with and deal with. As long as he feels that way and really goes for it when he makes it, it ain;t done yet. I don;t find this absurd. I think it's more absurd that someone is telling him he should maybe make another record in the style of THE GIFT.
You haven't discovered the Holy Grail by saying if you don't like that, go fuck yourself. That's too obvious and a bit childish too. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I like Zorn's "policy" so much. However, when someone says something negative about your heroes, you can't be objective enough to accept different opinions. Your truth is not universal, Skip.
Who said anything about Holy grails? if you don;t like someone's output, don;t buy it. Don;t whine like some little teenage girl that you're not being serviced in the style of some previous album you already liked.
Nor is no one's. I don't find your cinism about the Dave Douglas argument we had here too impressive, to tell you the truth. Back then I thought "Freak In" sucks and I still do, regardless of the effort DD invested in its making. That doesn't make it a good album for me. You respect him? Me too.
I respect Dave enough to know that I'd better keep an open mind as to what he's playing even if I don;t like it during the phase when I first hear it. I know better than to dismiss a Dave record whether or not I like it. I may say "I don;t get it", but I know more than to say "sucks". That's how I express respect.
I don't think I'm entitled to say such a thing for any special reasons. As a consumer or fan or whatever I am entitled to have an opinion, even if it's NEGATIVE. Curiously enough, you've dismissed other musicians that you dislike (I particularly remember Björk) without a hint of respect and questioning their musical capabilities and nobody said anything.
As a consumer or fan, you're entitled to an opinion. But telling someone what they should be releasing -- especially someone like John zorn -- is jumping past an opinion and saying you know better than they do what they should be doing. And you don;t. None of us does. But HE does. And musically, I'm pretty qualified to discuss someone's technical resources on an instrument. I
haven't seen you claiming respect for other artists that have been clearly dismissed either, probably because you don't care at all about their music.
"Probably"? What the fuck do you know about what I "probably" care about? Just because I have not made my opinions of, say, TIm Berne a matter of public discourse doesn;t mean I don;t know or care about him or his music. Just because I'm not typing my reaction to every artist mentioned on this list doesn;t mean I haven;t checked out the music.
To summarize, I think your reaction is totally over the top and a bit incoherent.
We all know your command of the language, pee wee. You're the only one who has ever accused me of being less than coherent. I'll attribute it to that lack of command of English. I'd hate to think anyone could be that stupid, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. sh
Some nice sentences to begin my day. Thanks Skip...
Seriously -- people complaining that their favorite artists should release certain stuff or not release certain stuff deserve what for.
Sorry but I think 99% of the music consumers do that in some way or another. You'll have to slap lots of people from now on. And I never used SHOULD. Maybe I WISHED would be closer.
I don;t think John Zorn feels the Masada music is over-exploited, and it's his to live with and deal with. As long as he feels that way and really goes for it when he makes it, it ain;t done yet. I don;t find this absurd. I think it's more absurd that someone is telling him he should maybe make another record in the style of THE GIFT.
I suggest you to read my paragraph again more carefully. I'm clearly saying that Zorn WOULD probably make more money out of an album in the style of THE GIFT! Dozens of people have expressed similar feelings about the Masada project here and nothing happened, Skip. Something personal maybe? And why are you so sure of what Zorn thinks? Some years ago he said it was his vehicle for playing sax again. The reasons seem to be quite different in 2003.
Who said anything about Holy grails? if you don;t like someone's output, don;t buy it.
holy grail because you say such obvious things with a tone of authority and solemnity that's pretty annoying. And I'm not talking about this disgusting thread only and neither about me only. Someone must have given you a pat on your shoulder at the wrong moment, I guess.
I respect Dave enough to know that I'd better keep an open mind as to what he's playing even if I don;t like it during the phase when I first hear it. I know better than to dismiss a Dave record whether or not I like it. I may say "I don;t get it", but I know more than to say "sucks". That's how I express respect.
Yes, you're so open minded that you're calling me stupid at the end of your e-mail with what you think is elegant irony. I already explained why I think "freak in" is a bad album. I don't need to justify myself anymore I think, at least with you.
As a consumer or fan, you're entitled to an opinion. But telling someone what they should be releasing -- especially someone like John zorn -- is jumping past an opinion and saying you know better than they do what they should be doing. And you don;t. None of us does. But HE does.
it's boring. Again, i never said what he SHOULD do.
And musically, I'm pretty qualified to discuss someone's technical resources on an instrument.
I don't know in your social environment, but here self-appraisal is not too nice.
"Probably"? What the fuck do you know about what I "probably" care about? Just because I have not made my opinions of, say, TIm Berne a matter of public discourse doesn;t mean I don;t know or care about him or his music. Just because I'm not typing my reaction to every artist mentioned on this list doesn;t mean I haven;t checked out the music.
I must express myself horribly or you don't get anything. If you're such an artistry-defendant, then do it all the time, and not only when someone talks about one of your untouchables, that's what I'm saying. You must be one of those who think that a writer who says good things about you is an informed, respectable, knowledgeable critic, and those who dislike your albums are totally illiterate, mental retarded wannabees to whom someone gave a pen by mistake.
We all know your command of the language, pee wee.
I don't understand the meaning/message of this sentence, sorry. Nor do I understand the meaning of "pee wee", but it's probably pejorative?
You're the only one who has ever accused me of being less than coherent.
That's exactly what I said, I never argued that.
I'll attribute it to that lack of command of English. I'd hate to think anyone could be that stupid, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Great. I'm stupid for thinking you've said something incoherent? That's a bit arrogant, man. And to be honest, I thought my command of English wasn't that terrible. Again, your reaction is TOTALLY OVER THE TOP.
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Efrén is a wonderful contributor to this list and his English is phenomenal. His ability to write so much in English is almost as admirable as all the well-informed, well-written reviews he feels compelled to share with the listwho else listens to almost every new Tzadik release!? I think it is very telling if there is an album that he does not care for, since there is so much he does like. Any way, particularly on the Freak In count, he qualifies his opinions well; only after he has made his specific comments can he rest upon blanket statements. Glass houses Americans, especially those who use the internet (maybe not Bill, but definitely myself, included), are in no position to criticize any persons use of English. Ive found that serious European English-speakers to be among best practitioners of our language. Germans, French, and the Spanish continually amaze me with mastery of this horribly convoluted language. I say that with not a bit of jealousy because not only is my first language at times lacking, but my Spanish is laughable in comparison to Efréns English. It seems that many Americans are, for some reason, threatened by a European who can speak English well, such that they seek, at times ridiculous, reason to criticize themeven if it is just making fun of their accent. Thank you, Efrén, for being such a worthwhile member of this list. Im sure your many posts are not the easiest for you to write, but I want you to know that they are always read and appreciated. Zach
on 12/12/03 1:03 AM, Efrén del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
I suggest you to read my paragraph again more carefully. I'm clearly saying that Zorn WOULD probably make more money out of an album in the style of THE GIFT!
Oh. Money. Much different.
Dozens of people have expressed similar feelings about the Masada project here and nothing happened, Skip. Something personal maybe? And why are you so sure of what Zorn thinks? Some years ago he said it was his vehicle for playing sax again. The reasons seem to be quite different in 2003.
Well, a conversation I had with him earlier this year -- which I won;t quote directly because personal conversations are off the record -- left me under the impression that he cares deeply about having a body of jewish music, and that he feels it should be represented by recording it. Also -- food for thought and nothing more: Any musician will tell you that a project that begins for one reason can often open other doors. Masada definitely began as a vehicle for the saxophone aspect of Zorn. But it became a vehicle for him to express a whole other series of things. And once that happens, you don;t don;t generally give up creating until you feel there's nothing more. So his reasons are very likely different in '03 than, say, '97. I'm shocked that none of the classically-oriented listers brought this up: Since Zorn is a child of CRI-type labels and has found his way onto the "legit" music radar... Well, put it this way -- so-called legit composers fr Bach to Elliot carter and beyond usually warrant the recording of a full cycle of things (generally instrument-based) in their body of work. Certain types of pianists record complete Chopin cycles, Schoenberg cycles, Mozart cycles of the composer-in-question's piano music. Certain string quartets do the same. Most often, the composers are dead by the time this happens, so while we get a complete recorded cycle of their work, we don;t know how the composer intended for it to sound. Zorn is a composer who has earned the consideration of a complete recorded cycle of his string music. More the better, that complete cycle can be recorded under his supervision, so we have the benefit of hearing the composer's conception of that work. There's a lot of it, so it's likely to take years for him to complete a Masada String Trio cycle. Much as it took Glenn Gould years to massacre the complete Mozart piano sonatas.
And musically, I'm pretty qualified to discuss someone's technical resources on an instrument.
I don't know in your social environment, but here self-appraisal is not too nice.
Nice or not, ensemble music performance is my living, and I wouldn't be able to make that living unless I could hear other people's skills. I certainly wouldn;t be able to audition anyone if I couldn;t tell if they could play or not. (Anyone who has ever wondered why I -- a guitar player -- never jump on the Fahey threads: I don;t get Fahey. I know he's incredible and all, but I guess he's a genius who's operating in a language I don;t speak.)
I must express myself horribly or you don't get anything. If you're such an artistry-defendant, then do it all the time, and not only when someone talks about one of your untouchables, that's what I'm saying. You must be one of those who think that a writer who says good things about you is an informed, respectable, knowledgeable critic, and those who dislike your albums are totally illiterate, mental retarded wannabees to whom someone gave a pen by mistake.
Artists should defend one another as artists. If you recognize someone as a real artist -- whether that person if John Zorn or even Justin Timberlake (I'm sure there's someone out there) -- the first thing should be respect for the right of an artist to deal with his vision on his own terms. That's a dual thing. The artist should respect the audience by doing the absolute best you can do, but probably first should respect the muse. Once you've taken your orders from the muse, you work hard to bring it as good as you can to the audience. They're the ones who spend money on your work. That said: All you owe them is the best possible version of your vision. Nothing more. (Example of artist disrespect -- when Tom Waits did live shows behind MULE VARIATIONS, he played four nights at the Wiltern here in LA. Tickets were ALL seats $65, which is a lot of bread for a four piece band who lives in LA, ie no hotel rooms, and the road crew duties were minimal since the players all brought their own stuff and left it standing for four days. There was no set onstage, nor any elaborate stage design. The only party that needed hotel rooms was Tom Waits and Immediate Family. I saw the third of four shows, and THE BAND WAS NOT WELL REHEARSED. How did I know? The bass player clearly didn;t know the tunes. REALLY clearly. Looking at Tom's hands to see what the chords were. Before you ask "how did YOU know?", ask any musician on the list what that looks like. We've all seen it in bar bands and we know unmistakably what that looks like. And Larry Taylor was doing it. I thought this disrespectful of Tom Waits, and it's really hurt my previously high opinion of him since. if you're gonna charge that much for a show that doesn;t cost much to put on, make sure the band is on fire.) As for critical reception to my own work (why you mention this, I have no idea), I've been lucky. I've had very few negative reviews, and the less positive ones I have read of my own work have generally been written by critics who had the same reservations I did about the record at hand, or who heard a hole I missed spotting, so I've been fortunate to be reviewed by very responsible critics as a rule, good and bad. Except for one -- whose wife I used to date. But I would offer that a critic with that releationship to the artist is suffering from conflict of interest issues. That said, it wasn't a bad review.
Again, your reaction is TOTALLY OVER THE TOP.
It would be even worse for you if you were in the room with me. I apologize for the name-calling -- to the group -- but I just have a real problem with people who think they know what artists should be doing. Instead of being thankful that there is art in the world for the sake of making something beautiful, they're thankful to have art in the world so they can express their viewpoint about it. It's the last I will say on the subject at all. skip h
Maybe the flaming level on this list is reversed proportional to the quality of zorn's releases. THE LAST TWO WEEKS WHERE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS, i shout, arthur
participants (6)
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Arthur Rother -
Efrén del Valle -
Ken Waxman -
Robert Pleshar -
skip heller -
Zachary Steiner