I, too, get annoyed when I see people proclaiming Dr. Dre, the Neptunes, Timbaland, etc. to be the most "innovative" hip hop producers. They're each incredibly formulaic, marginally talented beatmakers. But it's all about the context. Since I not only listen to but create a lot of hip hop, they're far less impressive to me than they are to the average top-40 listener who's used to hearing Korg Triton presets all day. While the Neptunes aren't innovative or impressive by any means to an informed listener, they're practically Sonic-fucking-Youth compared to the people that usually make the backing tracks for flavor-of-the-week rappers and R&B singers. Bhangra may have been old news five years ago, but put a black lady rapping over it (missy elliot's timbaland-produced "get your freak on") and put it on top-40 radio, and it sounds brand new. If you want to talk about REAL innovation in hip hop production, let's talk about EL-P putting bruce haack and Theoretical Girls samples over Husker Du breaks, or Odd Nosdam's (clouddead) "shoegaze hop." Andrew