I don't know whether to classify it as obvious, or difficult to grab, and it certainly falls into a creative realm that has more to do with rhythm and style than compositional technique/etc, but gawd damn -- it's nice to see an innovative record at the top of the U.S. charts, and I speak of the new Outkast album (specifically of Andre 3000's side - "The Love Below" ...lots going on "below" the surface on this CD, no? After repeated listens, it seems so to me, at least) I just read an interview with Andre 3000 (of Outkast) wherein he expresses extreme displeasure with the quality of American "popular" music these days. He speaks more highly of Europe, on the other hand, noting that it's "way ahead" of the States in terms of popular music (what sells, what's accepted, etc.)... given that it's the sorta place where such boundary pushing bands as Aphex Twin & Squarepusher (two examples he gives) can actually hit the charts every now and then. Naturally, though, this may not be "news" to all of us, and there certainly are many exceptions to this observation.....of course..... So anyhow, I suspect that Andre, and nearly all of us as well, would love to turn on American radio these days - and hear stuff as sophisticated as Bacharach's getting over-played to death....on our neighborhood Clear Channel Stations, or what have you..... ;-) And along the lines of the Beatles, which someone mentioned while examining Bacharach/etc., I am compelled to mention that I finally had an "Ed Sullivan" type moment recently -- when I saw Andre 3000 live on Letterman. I was glued to the TV -- never before had I seen a more charismatic & POWERFUL 'live' "pop" performance on television (he sang "Hey Ya", with a ballerina piroueting (sp?) to the music - a cool move, and lots of backup vocals/soul-claps/etc/etc, while he danced a bit like the singer for the Hives. ;-) These 3 minutes contained more 'excitement' and 'creativity' than most of today's pop (or otherwise!) performers dish out in an ENTIRE CONCERT.... Outkast is driven by the simple yet complex desire to "do their own thing" and be "different" -- layman's terms for "experimentalism" and "envelope-pushing" or what have you. Basically the same thing though, in the end; methods differ, but the goals are similar. And now Andre 3000 says he's gonna quit touring in order to study music & acting, and sees himself maybe fronting a "jazz sextet" someday, perhaps on sax. If this comes to be, chances are that it'll be both more interesting and fun than whatever the "avant-garde" & self-declared "creative" scenes have to offer at that time. ;-) Or what previous hiphop artists, such as Q-Tip, have achieved in this regard (mixing up hiphop/etc. and jazz styles). I'm willing to bet on that! ;-) Heck, he may end up fronting the most important jazz act of this century, i.e. -- one whose concerts may end up being highly appreciated both on intellectual/etc. levels, for their innovations (such as *really* bridging the gap 'tween jazz & hiphop)...AND on more "earthly" terms, such as their ability to excite the fuck out of girls and ladies (under 40!) as well. When's the last time a jazz act did that? Joshua Redman? Pleeeeeezzzz!!! ;-) Well, we'll see....only time will tell, eh? ;-) So...I digress.....I'm obviously not really talking about "technical" ground being broken here (in the present) but it's certainly a bit of cool "musical" ground that Outkast has broken so far, and continues to break.... (i.e. - "My Favorite Things" done in a drum & bass style, on their latest cd, by Andre 3000....I have never heard a better combo of drum & bass & jazz....still a ways to go, but the best 'start' i've heard...anyone heard better?) Moreover, anyone keen on - other currently *very popular* artists (either Stateside or in Europe) that are, in your opinion, pushing musical boundaries of one sort or another? (Aside from Eminem, who, in my opinion, is pushing boundaries mainly in terms of rapping/etc. like crazy.....his backing music ain't really doing all that much other than framing his vocals very well) Tangents and such, James Kirchmer p.s. - I don't mean to kill the Bacharach thread here -- it's very interesting and has been a pleasure to read!!! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Efrén del Valle" <efrendv@yahoo.es> To: "skip heller" <thisparadise@sbcglobal.net> Cc: <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: Re: The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach Yes, but when it comes to popular music, envelope-pushing practices are far less obvious and more difficult to grab. Burt Bacharach is one example. Brian Wilson could be another one. Unless you listen to their albums really, really carefully, it's difficult to notice there's something groundbreaking there because the easily recognizable tunes and the pop forms stand at the forefront, not to mention the time/generational factor. Needless to say, when you scratch the surface, these impressions change. Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Burt Bacharach "After the Fox" (MGM) thanks for reminding me