skip wrote to zorn-list: s> Then someone kindly explain to me why a lot of 40-yr-old musical s> tactics (as set down by Ornette, Cecil, Ayler et al) are still s> being referred to as avant-garde? This is a question that goes round and round in experimental film circles, nobody's quite happy with either "avant-garde film" or "underground film" for much the same reasons; the solution I've liked best is to treat it as a label for a certain practice, within a certain (not necessarily open-ended) time period. That is, regardless of the semantic content of the words, it's the name of a (historicized) genre -- like cubism, or socialist realism -- rather than a description of a thing in comparison to something else. " Progressive Rock, which wasn't to begin with. -- Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com There's no need for us to return to San Francisco at all. -- Michael Moorcock np: Monos, _Places_ nr: Graham Greene, _Journey Without Maps_