November 2003 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

terminal pharmacy live
by doron galili 13 Nov '03

13 Nov '03

hello all, i am not sure if it was discussed on the list in real time, but i am just curious if anyone can report on Jim O'Rourke's live version of "Terminal Pharmacy," which was played in the Tonic in September... does anyone have any memories form there? doron

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beck (as nick drake)
by ahorton 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

>> I agree that Beck seems like he's in a holding pattern now (the latest one >> sounds like bad Nick Drake). > >But to many ears the recent Beck was quite a sonic shock. You have to >remember that the great majority of listeners today have never heard >*of* Nick Drake, much less heard his music. I don't think it was a shock to anyone who's familiar with Beck. After all, "sea change" followed soundalikes "mutations" and "one foot in the grave", which arguably form a trilogy of introspective, predominantly acoustic records that crib from primitive blues and folk of the Cohen/Drake variety. The real surprise was that it was that "Sea Change" was nowhere near as good as those two records, which remain both the strongest and the most honest of his discography. My beef with post-fame Beck is that he never has the balls to combine his two split personalities on one record. His entire post-"loser" career has been a juggling act, keeping the serious, folksy moper seperate from the novelty party guy. Hence, records like "midnight vultures" are nothing but schlocky silliness, and "mutations" and "sea change" are the serious, mopey ones. Why doesn't he have the balls to put both on one record? andrew

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black people vs. hip hop
by ahorton 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

I, too, get annoyed when I see people proclaiming Dr. Dre, the Neptunes, Timbaland, etc. to be the most "innovative" hip hop producers. They're each incredibly formulaic, marginally talented beatmakers. But it's all about the context. Since I not only listen to but create a lot of hip hop, they're far less impressive to me than they are to the average top-40 listener who's used to hearing Korg Triton presets all day. While the Neptunes aren't innovative or impressive by any means to an informed listener, they're practically Sonic-fucking-Youth compared to the people that usually make the backing tracks for flavor-of-the-week rappers and R&B singers. Bhangra may have been old news five years ago, but put a black lady rapping over it (missy elliot's timbaland-produced "get your freak on") and put it on top-40 radio, and it sounds brand new. If you want to talk about REAL innovation in hip hop production, let's talk about EL-P putting bruce haack and Theoretical Girls samples over Husker Du breaks, or Odd Nosdam's (clouddead) "shoegaze hop." Andrew

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Re: Pop innovators (was The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach)
by Ben Axelrad 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

I don't really understand why Dr. Dre is doing innovative work. Can you please give some examples? When "The Chronic" came out I was very annoyed that he was sampling the same old P-Funk records... >From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfectlist(a)furious.com> >To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Pop innovators (was The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach) >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:03:44 -0500 > >Good discussion here. > >I also wonder who's really doing innovative work in the pop world today. >Radiohead and Outkast (Bjork too I suppose) definitely fit the bill but >there should be more, shouldn't there? In the last 5-10 years, it seemed >like it was mostly hip hop producers like Dr. Dre, Timbaland, Prince Paul >and RZA who fit this bill. > >Back in the day, groups like the Beatles and the Beach Boys had some leeway >to do this because they already topped the charts and had huge name >recognition. They didn't start with Revolver or Pet Sounds but they were >able to get there thanks in large part to the previous success that they >enjoyed. > >Best, >Jason > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize

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Don't pop my rock
by Matthew Garrington 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

I mean, really, no one has mentioned Ween. Now there's revolutionary pop music. Anyone that can take "Push the little daisies" or "Can't put my finger on it" into the mainstream deserves some recognition. And they can't be considered part of the '60s counterculture movement .. .. Don't pop my rock. matt g _____________________________________________________________"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin____________________________________________________________

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The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach
by Perfect Sound Forever 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

http://www.suntimes.com/output/music/sho-sunday-bach09.html Here they are: Burt Bacharach, Ronald Isley and the music November 9, 2003 BY DAVE HOEKSTRA STAFF REPORTER EXCERPT BELOW >When Bacharach landed at New York City's fabled Brill Building in 1957 and >was paired up with lyricist David, he brought a unique dimension to the >partnership. > >Bacharach had studied with experimental composer Darius Milhaud in Santa >Barbara, Calif., at the Music Academy of the West, to which he received a >scholarship. Bacharach also was a fan of Lou Harrison, regarded as the >father of the West Coast avant-garde scene. > >"Studying with Darius was very important, if for no other reason, when I >wrote a sonatina [for oboe, violin and piano] I was almost embarrassed to >play the piece for him. There were five of us in the class. The second >movement was pretty melodic by [the standards of] what was going on in the >rest of the class, and I was thinking about what was supposed to be >'proper' in writing classical music. > >"Afterward he told me to never be self-conscious about writing something >that has a melody. That had a very big impact. A validation. > >"Lou Harrison once wrote this thing for [dancer] Martha Graham on >commission. It was a 12-, 14- minute piece and eight minutes of silence. >And she didn't want to pay for that commission. But he was making a >statement that silence was really important in what made the music. I >could relate to that.

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Sonic Youth vs. The Beatles
by Craig Lieske 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

Actually, growing up when I did, in the first great spate of 80's independent labels and gig networks, made Sonic Youth comparable to the Beatles forme. "Death Valley '89" was the song that drove me to pick up the guitar. Nothing against the Beatles, they wrote many great songs, but they don't mean near as much to me as SY. Most of you folks perhaps did not come up during this time frame I am describing, and possibly cannot understand this, but I am a "avant-guitarist" because of Thurston and Lee, not because of Burt Bacaharch or McCartney/Lennon. Craig L. _________________________________________________________________ Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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RE: Zappa/Counter Culture Icons/ Pop innovators (was The Experime ntal Side of Burt Bacharach)
by Oppenheim, Phil 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

For whatever it's worth, I had a "Phi Zappa Krappa" poster on my bedroom wall (as a kid, in the early '70s) long before I'd actually purchased any FZ albums. At the time, this image of him signified, for me, a kind of romantic anti-establishment stance, a hearty fuck-you to just about everyone who ventured into my bedroom. So even to the nonfan, FZ's visage (not to mention posterior) carried *some* kind of counter-cultural currency, I think.

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Jim O'Rourke
by Tosh 12 Nov '03

12 Nov '03

I think I was introduced to O'Rourke's music on this list. I find his music to be very seductive and texturally pleasing. It is also nice to hear an album of his - and not expecting in what you are going to hear. In that sense he reminds me of early Eno. Sort of an odd combination of classic minimalism with Beach Boys type of pop. -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com

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RE: The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach
by Efrén del Valle 11 Nov '03

11 Nov '03

Hi, --- Zachary Steiner <zsteiner(a)butler.edu> escribiÃ³: > I get dismissive reactions from friends, in my > generation, when I talk about > how great Pet Sounds is or when I speak of Brian > Wilson's masterful (and at > the time experimental) production. The same happens to me, whether it's Brian Wilson, Al Green, The Beatles or Bacharach. They just have a > hard time with > something so "happy" or "poppy" being great art--let > alone revolutionary or > experimental. I try to make them listen harder, but > even then they still > don't hear it. Sometimes their opinion changes when > I play some cuts from > Smiley Smile like the Woody Wood Pecker track or > Wind chimes. Maybe The BBs are not exactly revolutionary for today's standars, but I think their music still has something disturbing at some particular moments- I'm thinking of "Til' I Die", for example. Best, EfrÃ©n del Valle > Zach > > -----Original Message----- > From: zorn-list-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:zorn-list-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On > Behalf Of EfrÃ©n del Valle > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:24 PM > To: skip heller > Cc: zorn-list(a)lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach > > Yes, but when it comes to popular music, > envelope-pushing practices are far less obvious and > more difficult to grab. Burt Bacharach is one > example. > Brian Wilson could be another one. Unless you listen > to their albums really, really carefully, it's > difficult to notice there's something groundbreaking > there because the easily recognizable tunes and the > pop forms stand at the forefront, not to mention the > time/generational factor. Needless to say, when you > scratch the surface, these impressions change. > > Best, > > EfrÃ©n del Valle > n.p: Burt Bacharach "After the Fox" (MGM) thanks for > reminding me > > > > --- skip heller <thisparadise(a)sbcglobal.net> > escribiÃ³: > If you listen closely and if you > investigate BB's > > working methods, you > > realize that he was very intentional about pushing > > the envelope. He did > > create breakthroughs in popular music and > > miraculously to a large audience. > > To be frank, the scope of his achievements on > that > > score dwarf something > > like the sixties Miles quintet. > > > > There is always a lot of experimental and > > revolutionary music going on away > > from the so-called and self-appointed"creative" > > music world. Burt Bacharach > > is not the exception to any rules. He's typical > of > > something else. > > > > skip h > > > > > > on 11/11/03 8:35 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at > > proussel(a)ichips.intel.com wrote: > > > > > > > > But why "The Experimental Side"? This is maybe > > what makes Bacharach > > > (and many others) so important. They show (for > > those of us who were > > > too infatuated with the sirens of > experimentation > > to even realize it) > > > that great music meaning a lot to a lot of > people > > does not have to > > > create breakthroughs. > > > > > > There is a lot of great music to be done without > > extended techniques > > > or a laptop :-). > > > > > > Patrice. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > zorn-list mailing list > > zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription > Options, > > go to the webpage below > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list > > > ___________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versiÃ³n GRATIS > Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y mÃ¡s... > http://messenger.yahoo.es > > _______________________________________________ > zorn-list mailing list > zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com > To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, > go to the webpage below > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list > > ___________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versiÃ³n GRATIS Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y mÃ¡s... http://messenger.yahoo.es

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