Ok, here's my two cents. Whenever possible, buy legally made and distributed material (DVDs, VCDs, or whatever), even if it costs more and/or you have to wait longer for it to be delivered. However, if a product exists and the distributors (for whatever reason) are unwilling to release it to your part of the world, then I don't think its wrong in a moral sense to acquire it through ebay, newsrooms, or whatever. That said, I want to stress my belief that acquiring anything bootleg should be considered only as a last resort. Anyone who takes the time and effort to contribute something positive to this world, such as misters Blank and Meier, should be fairly compensated for their works. Actually, if anyone is to blame for loss of revenue (in this instance), its the music distributors who hold back the release of Yello material in certain parts of the world and creating authorized stuff that will only play in certain regions. A lot of people who buy bootlegged stuff aren't out to screw the artists, but are otherwise loyal fans who simply want the same access their favorite artist as everyone else. About the profanity...its just tacky and shows disrespect to everybody. Play nice.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Ebay space cadets on shore leave often find crabs in shorts (TofP@aol.com) 2. Replay from DVD seller (responce in BOLD) (TofP@aol.com) 3. Re: Ebay bandicoots snare unwitting worms (organism@hydrophilus.com) 4. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (organism@hydrophilus.com) 5. Re: Ebay bandicoots snare unwitting worms (Laurens van Graft) 6. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (Mark Pulley) 7. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (Jussi Salmi) 8. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (Laurens van Graft) 9. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (Laurens van Graft) 10. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (TofP@aol.com) 11. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (julz) 12. RE: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (High Priest of Slag-Blah) 13. Throwing you a bone. (Jon Kamm) 14. Re: Retard vs. DVD Hero (blather was in bold) (julz)
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Message: 1 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:32:15 EST From: TofP@aol.com Subject: Re: [Yello] Ebay space cadets on shore leave often find crabs in shorts To: yello@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <65.37854167.2ebc5c4f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What?
t.savoy@insightbb.com wrote:
Ok, here's my two cents. Whenever possible, buy legally made and distributed material (DVDs, VCDs, or whatever), even if it costs more and/or you have to wait longer for it to be delivered. However, if a product exists and the distributors (for whatever reason) are unwilling to release it to your part of the world, then I don't think its wrong in a moral sense to acquire it through ebay, newsrooms, or whatever.
The problem is, that much of Yello stuff can be bought in record stores here in Finland and probably in many other places in Europe. My local store often has even their earliest material, Solid Pleasure etc. Only the singles are sold only for a short time after their release. When people put stuff for sale on ebay, people from Finland can buy it, and Boris and Dieter are left without their money. Therefore, it's not okay to sell copies on the net, but maybe it's okay to buy, sometimes. Of course, the price can be lower when buying here locally, so it would not make sense to buy them from the net, I don't know... -- Jussi Salmi http://staff.cs.utu.fi/~jussalmi/
The problem is, that much of Yello stuff can be bought in record stores here in Finland and probably in many other places in Europe.
Surprisingly, here in the UK even in the largest record shops usually only have a few old Albums on the shelf, though all can of course be ordered in. This is of course true throughout the world... Yello is not signed to some two-bit independent record label with no distribution network. Even if your local store doesn't have a particular Yello album they can order it in for you very easily. You've just got to ask them. (And sometimes find a shop assistant who has a clue. I always avoid the teenagers. <grin>) But this is a separate issue from what we were really discussing, which was buying products that you *cannot* just order in because they either have *never* been released, or are now out of print, or are only available in a format which is not compatible with your country's TV standards.
When people put stuff for sale on ebay, people from Finland can buy it, and Boris and Dieter are left without their money. Therefore, it's not okay to sell copies on the net, but maybe it's okay to buy, sometimes.
Now you appear to be talking about buying second hand stuff. You are quite right that if I buy even a genuine (non-bootlegged) album from eBay then the artist does not get any money, but this has always been the case and is of course not limited to eBay or even the internet. I regularly go to Record Fairs where you can buy many second hand albums, mostly out-of-print 12" or CD-single releases, but also plenty of albums and stuff still available in the shops. (Though you'll pay half price or less for the second hand item.) Is this fair? Am I under a moral obligation to only buy new stuff? If you actually do believe that then you'd better start boycotting your local library too! After all, every book you borrow, rather than buy, has just deprived the author of money. And don't even think about lending a book to a friend... Your soul may be damned forever! Ok, ok. I'm getting silly now. But I think my point is made. There is plenty of acceptable (and what is more, *legal*) "sharing" of artistic work going on out there. Bootlegging (and even file sharing on the 'net) overlaps the legal and non-legal sharing of artistic material. How much overlaps in any individual case will of course vary, but it's exactly because such issues are *not* clear-cut that we are even having this discussion. I'll state my personal position again, with a bit more detail: I make enough money that I can afford to buy any new-release item by the artists that I like, and I do so. The artists I really like I often buy stuff second hand or bootlegged because there is simply *no other way* to get that material. I'll happily take a copy from somebody or download off the net some obscure remix of a track because I can't find it elsewhere. Sometimes I have paid a sizable amount to buy a genuine release from a collector of a track I already have as an MP3 because I'm the sort of person who "likes to have it sitting on his shelf." (My Yello collection probably takes 2 feet of shelf space these days.) And I very much doubt I'm alone is being like this, especially on this mailing list. For the most part we are the "slightly obsessive" sort of fan who cares about obscure old releases, who do consult the discography to see "what we're missing", etc. Of course we want Dieter and Boris to keep producing new stuff, so we buy what we can, but we also won't stop ourselves from lending stuff to friends to see if we can't get them hooked too, and we won't think twice about emailing another like-minded fan a MP3 of a rare remix only found on the 2 CD version of "Hands on Yello" because, though it is a cliché, it is a victimless crime. It certainly doesn't cost Dieter or Boris anything, in fact, it's keeps the fan-base alive and interesting between new releases, which indirectly helps them. So, those of you on the list who appear to have a desire for us to be more "stringent" in us following the letter of the law, watch out what you wish for. We'll all be the poorer for your black-and-white approach to life. Michael PS: I'll try to make this my last long-winded email for a while and just go back to my usual lurking now... <grin>
On Nov 7, 2004, at 8:48 AM, Thug wrote:
Even if your local store doesn't have a particular Yello album they can order it in for you very easily. You've just got to ask them. (And sometimes find a shop assistant who has a clue. I always avoid the teenagers. <grin>)
I have tried to order stuff in from my local HMV store (Inter-National chain). they have a large database on their computers, but can't order anything that isn't on their list. Guess what! they don't have any new (ish) YELLO on their databases, so they can't order any in. I have asked, and even tried to source out titles to bring in, to make finding them easier. This is not easy when you don't know of newly released CD singles, titles, release dates, distributers,etc. If I had all that information, I would order it directly, as I would know who to contact. ISN'T THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE LOCAL RECORD SHOPPE ? To do all the leg work for you? A few years ago, My wife bought me Pocket Universe. She had to order it in from HMV. $50.00 (canadian) she paid. Then, because the album ordering caused a blip on the HMV radar, I saw a copy on the shelf of one of their Downtown stores, only $23.00 can. Laurens van Graft The Grip Guy All your gymnastics grip needs right here! Abolish Daylight Savings Time; it's past its usefulness
Hey all, I have tried to order stuff in from my local HMV store (Inter-National chain). they have a large database on their computers, but can't order anything that isn't on their list. Guess what! they don't have any new (ish) YELLO on their databases, so they can't order any in. I have asked, and even tried to source out titles to bring in, to make finding them easier. This is not easy when you don't know of newly released CD singles, titles, release dates, distributers,etc. If I had all that information, I would order it directly, as I would know who to contact. This is surprising, There's a thing called AMROC ( <http://www.amroc.com.au/> http://www.amroc.com.au/) in Australia which is a database for *all* music retailers listing pretty much *all* the music available in Australia. It's fairly easy for even small Indy labels to get their stuff listed in AMROC, and of course all the big labels are in there. I guess I always assumed most other countries had similar services set up! If your local retailer needs more information about a release before they can order it for you I'd suggest doing a search on one of the many Amazon sites out there. DON'T just do a search on Amazon.com, especially for European stuff. Try doing a search on Amazon.co.uk or on Amazon.fr and copy the details (Record label and catalogue number) from there. Michael
Thank you, useful information Laurens van Graft The Grip Guy All your gymnastics grip needs right here! Abolish Daylight Savings Time; it's past its usefulness On Nov 7, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Thug wrote:
Hey all, This is surprising, There's a thing called AMROC (http://www.amroc.com.au/) in Australia which is a database for *all* music retailers listing pretty much *all* the music available in Australia. It's fairly easy for even small Indy labels to get their stuff listed in AMROC, and of course all the big labels are in there. I guess I always assumed most other countries had similar services set up! If your local retailer needs more information about a release before they can order it for you I'd suggest doing a search on one of the many Amazon sites out there. DON'T just do a search on Amazon.com, especially for European stuff. Try doing a search on Amazon.co.uk or on Amazon.fr and copy the details (Record label and catalogue number) from there. Michael
Thug wrote:
When people put stuff for sale on ebay, people from Finland can buy it, and Boris and Dieter are left without their money. Therefore, it's not okay to sell copies on the net, but maybe it's okay to buy, sometimes.
No, I meant buying illegal copies in the internet.
I'll state my personal position again, with a bit more detail: I make enough money that I can afford to buy any new-release item by the artists that I like, and I do so. The artists I really like I often buy stuff second hand or bootlegged because there is simply *no other way* to get that material. I'll happily take a copy from somebody or download off the net some obscure remix of a track because I can't find it elsewhere.
I agree with you completely. If the material is available in some original way, then it's not okay to buy it in an illegal version. There exists a large industry making these illegal copies, and they of course cause the legal copies to be more expensive. Of course the record companies are very greedy, and don't really care about the fans' needs, with regard to record availability and prices, but that's another issue. -- Jussi Salmi http://staff.cs.utu.fi/~jussalmi/
On Nov 8, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Jussi Salmi wrote:
Of course the record companies are very greedy, and don't really care about the fans' needs, with regard to record availability and prices, but that's another issue.
Actually, they do have to care, to keep the artist alive, and therefore provide an income base from which they can suck their money and existence out of, they must (and most do) realize that, the artist has to sell records (or other media type). This brings me back to my earlier point, they love the main-stream, top of the pops, top 40 (generally, trendy, commercial, talentless twaddle) where they can sell billions and billions of issues of a single copy, book three consecutive nights at the Georgia Dome or Madison Square Garden and sell every seat (at at-least $65.00 in the nosebleed sections) and thus get the most money for the least amount of effort and investment. (they aren't that stupid from a financial perspective), but at what expense? your ears will tell you. therefore, they cannot exist without the fans, but they do everything to channel our tastes and likes in this regard, by their promotion techniques and selection of artists to support. If they can't market an action toy, or smelly lip-gloss with their "(sic) SUPER-STARR" on it, they often won't bother. As soon as that happens, you become surrounded in boot-legs. (how many bootlegs are there out there for Christine Agulaira(sp), Avril Lavign, Madonna, P(l)huff Daddy, etc. (this comment is rhetorical, no reply is necessary-.. but I bet there will be a few oranic bratwurst) Laurens van Graft The Grip Guy All your gymnastics grip needs right here! Abolish Daylight Savings Time; it's past its usefulness
participants (4)
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Jussi Salmi -
Laurens van Graft -
t.savoy＠insightbb.com -
Thug