Whew, where to begin... 1. I'm glad to hear you do not agree with Buttars/Bush on the teaching of ID in Science class. Otherwise we'd have to give biology teachers equal time in Seminary. 2. The only "direct conflict with LDS doctrine" I see is in your mind and the way you have chosen to interpret the scriptures and sermons by general authorities. Statements made by Boyd K. Packer, in conference talks, BYU lectures, or whatever, do NOT constitute official church doctrine -- they are his personal opinions. Did you find a "thus sayeth the Lord" in any of his writings? 3. In the 1939(?) first presidency statement, which is quoted in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (allegedly created to represent church doctrine as officially as possible to the rest of the world), it basically says "...Leave the science to the scientists, while we (the church) concern ourselves with the salvation of mankind", words to that effect (I'm quoting from my very flawed memory). Brother Packer apparently wasn't paying attention to that statement. Probably why some of his buddies in CES failed to quote that statement and instead quote the earlier (1909) statement in the Ensign in 2002, but that's just my guess/opinion. And good grief, what did anyone on this planet know of DNA in 1909? of precise dating techniques? We are living in an exponential EXPLOSION of knowlege from the various scientific frontiers. We simply cannot afford to shut our eyes, plug our ears and refuse to look around us because it might conflict with some sentimental and naiive traditional ways of understanding the world (flat earth, earth-centric universe, etc.) we live in! Um, "theological evolution" is kind of a central, core LDS doctrine, isn't it -- man becoming God? The statement "The word of the Lord declared that Adam was 'the first man of all men' (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race." still leaves a lot of wiggle room regarding the origin of Adam's body. To simply wave it off as "we do not understand how" and it's implicit "nor ever will until God reveals it to us" is, in my mind, a big fat cop out, filled with intellectual cowardice. One similar to the often-heard "the fossils in this earth are simply leftovers from another planet" nonsense. What I meant by a wicked prankster God who delights in tripping up and fooling his naturally curious offspring with mountains and museums of false and misleading evidence. I cannot comprehend such a being, and refuse to believe God would be such a cruel and malevolent beast. Let me ask you a question -- when did God ever give ANYTHING away for free? That's not, nor ever has been in the history of mankind, how He has operated. We must seek, knock, search, ponder and pray. That's true for ANY --- Steven Goodwin <puhiava@macosx.com> wrote:
Rich, let's get one thing straight- I do not agree with President Bush or Chris Buttars on any form of teaching ID or Creationism or whatever in our public schools at all. Do not confuse me on this point whatsoever. I only stated that the Darwin's theory of the origin of man was in direct conflict LDS doctrine, but I do support some of Darwin theories of evolution. If you find the two incompatible then maybe that is where we differ. Teaching my faith in values belong in my home to be taught to my children not in public school.
To think God inserted his spirit in Adam as man evolved to a certain point has been rejected by LDS leaders- this idea of "theological evolution" as it has been sometimes been coined has been rejected. Do a search of Elder Packard's General Conference talks within the last two years (I can't remember which). I also refer you to the "official" statement on the Origins of Man by President Joseph F Smith and his Counselors in 1909 (found recently in Feb 2002 Ensign). Here is an excerpt from that: "It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was Âthe first man of all men (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race." It is wrong to say the LDS Church has never made a statement about Darwin's origin of Man. They have avoided the mean-spirited rhetoric that many extreme christians group have taken though.
As whether creation of man = magic I'm not sure where you are coming from there. Adam did not just appear- he was created like any other of God's creations. Saying God formed Adam from the dust of the earth doesn't equate "magic" but it involves a process we do not understand of at the present time. We are just trying to understand where man was created from- According to modern evolution it was from Homo Erectus and other hominids that we evolved. Adams progenitors were not Hominids- Adam was the first man and how he was created wasn't magic but it wasn't from a lower species.
I don't understand why some of you evolutionary-mormons can not have faith in a creation process and why are you so willing to jump on board with the rest of world because "it makes sense". "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
It is interesting that because I have expressed an opinion that is contrary to the "hard core" evolutionists that I must be in the camp with the right-wing extremists. I simply believe in the creation story of man and I also believe in some of the theories of evolution-- this may sound like they are in conflict but they aren't. Faith binds it together.
On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:44 AM, Richard Tenney wrote:
I find it interesting Mark, that considering yourself and the biology staff at BYU devout Mormons when embracing Darwin's theory on the origin of man is in direct conflict with LDS church doctrine.
On this point you are flat wrong Steve. The LDS Church (of which I too am an active HP) CONTINUALLY REFUSES TO TAKE A DOCTRINAL POSITION ON HOW HUMANS WERE CREATED. However, commonly held LDS belief that God somehow created humans (completely separate from all other life forms) with a magic wand in a puff of hocus pocus, or from a literal lump of clay is simply pure ignorant superstition (from a literal reading of the creation myth in Genesis/Moses) that flies in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary. Such a position in fact paints a doctrinal picture in which either God is a capricious, wicked prankster that loves to decieve his curious children, or one in which He is laughing His head off (or shaking it in amazed disbelief) at our gross myopia and willful ignorance of what He has placed here all around us to discover and learn for ourselves.
Can someone please tell me why there are seemingly so many of you (fellow Mormons) that insist that creation == magic?
Why is (creation == evolutionary_process) such a bitter, difficult pill to swallow? I simply do not/cannot understand it.
-Rich
PS, As to any political overtones you might object to, Pres. Bush opening his politically-motivated mouth on the subject of ID is in fact the very ammunition Butters cites to pursue this ridiculous bill of his, and citing that is relevant to such a discussion, unfortunately. So fault him and his fundamentalist "christian" supporters, not folks like Mark that object to what is clearly political hay-making by the president (and one has to believe Buttars, who doesn't have a doctrinal leg to stand on).
Any politician that insists on micro-managing professional science educators should first be forced to pass a basic HS science exam, which Buttars would clearly fail to do.
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