I only caught a portion of the show, but NPR's Talk of the Nation, "Science Friday" show this week was on the subject of SETI. The usual suspects were interviewed, but what grabbed my attention was a new concept, for me anyway, that the most ecconomical way to move information across cosmic distances isn't via electromagnetic radiation. Lasers, radio, microwaves, they all lose to....the mail. I didn't get the details but I think the researchers were computer networking specialists who came to the problem through a back door, so to speak. They postulate that it's much more efficient to load up a "mail truck" with data on media and send it on it's way to it's destination star. Yes, timeliness weighs into the equation also, but even so the slow boat wins. Based on that idea, they are now trying to figure out where the mail of advanced beings would be, that we may actually start to look for it! Possibilities include the interiors of asteroids, comets, planetessimals, etc. If anyone hears when this show will be rebroadcast, please post, thanks. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
I heard the same show, rebroadcast on Friday night. I was waiting outside of SPOC, just hoping those clouds would go away (they didn't). I think one of the most important parts of that discussion--although not fully stressed--was the idea that you basically give up on two-way communication. This is certainly true of light-speed communication as well. As soon as correspondents are separated by a few light years, you really can't have much of a conversation. This is really underlined if you send objects that may take thousands of years to reach a destination. A message really becomes a declaration of "we were here". By the way, the show isn't yet online. But you can get the basic info from: http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2004/Sep/hour2_090304.html Michael
I only caught a portion of the show, but NPR's Talk of the Nation, "Science Friday" show this week was on the subject of SETI. The usual suspects were interviewed, but what grabbed my attention was a new concept, for me anyway, that the most ecconomical way to move information across cosmic distances isn't via electromagnetic radiation. Lasers, radio, microwaves, they all lose to....the mail. I didn't get the details but I think the researchers were computer networking specialists who came to the problem through a back door, so to speak. They postulate that it's much more efficient to load up a "mail truck" with data on media and send it on it's way to it's destination star. Yes, timeliness weighs into the equation also, but even so the slow boat wins. Based on that idea, they are now trying to figure out where the mail of advanced beings would be, that we may actually start to look for it! Possibilities include the interiors of asteroids, comets, planetessimals, etc. If anyone hears when this show will be rebroadcast, please post, thanks.
--- Michael Carnes <moogiebird@earthlink.net> wrote:
I think one of the most important parts of that discussion--although not fully stressed--was the idea that you basically give up on two-way communication.
This is certainly true for human timeframes, but I have to believe that any beings capable of interstellar mail service would have dealt with longevity issues as well. Too, isn't the "we are here" broadcast primarily what all SETI programs are looking for? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com
What's wrong with the physical mail theory is that the likelihood of the package ending up in any creature's hands, paws, tentacles or gloobuleers (Alpha Centaurian word) is vanishingly remote. Flipping a big light on and off would get more attention. So would a radio beacon. At least someone out there has a chance of looking in the right direction or listening with a large enough receiver. But sending a package into the unknown is like throwing a bottle in the ocean when it's much easier to send a message by radio. Just a thought that popped into my yowscokinog. -- Joe
You're not making fun of my gloobuleers, are you Joe?
What's wrong with the physical mail theory is that the likelihood of the package ending up in any creature's hands, paws, tentacles or gloobuleers (Alpha Centaurian word) is vanishingly remote. Flipping a big light on and off would get more attention. So would a radio beacon. At least someone out there has a chance of looking in the right direction or listening with a large enough receiver. But sending a package into the unknown is like throwing a bottle in the ocean when it's much easier to send a message by radio. Just a thought that popped into my yowscokinog. -- Joe
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Hi Friends, I guess this is sort of "toot your own horn" time for me -- but also I believe you're all (or almost all) interested in the fascinating Genesis project. The sidebar story tells where you can watch it live. I tried as hard as I could with NASA to have a consultant, our own Patrick, go out to Dugway with me and provide commentary as it was happening, but the NASA guy refused. What makes it even more irritating is that NASA has NOT been good about contacting the local media or making things easier for us. They sent out at least one notice that we and at another Utah media outlet (maybe more than one) have not received from NASA. We only got the word second-hand from such sources as the U. of U. and Dugway, who were looking out for us. My feeling is that NASA is playing to national and international media and basically not giving a hoot about Utah. When I sent them an email asking that they specify which outlets had received a particular press release, they ignored me. Anyway, here are links for Monday's story: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089440,00.html and the sidebar: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html Best wishes, Joe
I'm interested in a desert trek to see the incoming fireball, if it can be seen from perhaps near the border. Is anyone else making such plans? Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Bauman<mailto:bau@desnews.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:14 AM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] GENESIS! Hi Friends, I guess this is sort of "toot your own horn" time for me -- but also I believe you're all (or almost all) interested in the fascinating Genesis project. The sidebar story tells where you can watch it live. I tried as hard as I could with NASA to have a consultant, our own Patrick, go out to Dugway with me and provide commentary as it was happening, but the NASA guy refused. What makes it even more irritating is that NASA has NOT been good about contacting the local media or making things easier for us. They sent out at least one notice that we and at another Utah media outlet (maybe more than one) have not received from NASA. We only got the word second-hand from such sources as the U. of U. and Dugway, who were looking out for us. My feeling is that NASA is playing to national and international media and basically not giving a hoot about Utah. When I sent them an email asking that they specify which outlets had received a particular press release, they ignored me. Anyway, here are links for Monday's story: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089440,00.html<http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089440,00.html> and the sidebar: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html<http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html> Best wishes, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com<http://www.utahastronomy.com/>
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/03sep_genesisreentry.htm Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball: http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html -- Best wishes, Joe
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else? Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Bauman<mailto:bau@desnews.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] GENESIS! Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/03sep_genesisreentry.htm> Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball: http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html> -- Best wishes, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com<http://www.utahastronomy.com/>
Anyone interested in a road trip to Wells, Nevada tomorrow morning for the Genesis reentry? Wells lies very close to the intersection of the reentry path and I-80/NV 93 according to the Nasa map (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/genesisreentry/ tigermap1024_grid.gif) The re-entry time would be 9:52 am MDT. Wells is about 2 1/2 - 3 hrs from Salt Lake. Or as an alternate, as if that wasn't thrilling enough, we could try to sneak into the Dugway Proving Ground's Granite Peak facility to watch the retrieval first hand. Be sure to pack your Kevlar flack jacket. (This is a joke people! I don't think they'd let us in.) Any interest? Dave Bennett P.S. Patrick, will you be going anywhere for the re-entry? On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else?
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm>
Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball:
http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/ index.html>
-- Best wishes, Joe Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Everyone knows the best time to visit Wells is at night. And that way, you are rested and pretty much in place come morning. ;) Quoting David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com>:
Anyone interested in a road trip to Wells, Nevada tomorrow morning for the Genesis reentry? Wells lies very close to the intersection of the reentry path and I-80/NV 93 according to the Nasa map (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/genesisreentry/ tigermap1024_grid.gif) The re-entry time would be 9:52 am MDT. Wells is about 2 1/2 - 3 hrs from Salt Lake.
Or as an alternate, as if that wasn't thrilling enough, we could try to sneak into the Dugway Proving Ground's Granite Peak facility to watch the retrieval first hand. Be sure to pack your Kevlar flack jacket. (This is a joke people! I don't think they'd let us in.)
Any interest?
Dave Bennett
P.S. Patrick, will you be going anywhere for the re-entry?
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else?
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm>
Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball:
http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/ index.html>
-- Best wishes, Joe Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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I'm not sure if you're referring to the dark skies, ufo sightings, or brothels but I'll take your word for it. And I'm less sure of how rested you'd be after any one of those 'attractions' ;) On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:35 PM, diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
Everyone knows the best time to visit Wells is at night. And that way, you are rested and pretty much in place come morning. ;)
Quoting David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com>:
Anyone interested in a road trip to Wells, Nevada tomorrow morning for the Genesis reentry? Wells lies very close to the intersection of the reentry path and I-80/NV 93 according to the Nasa map (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/genesisreentry/ tigermap1024_grid.gif) The re-entry time would be 9:52 am MDT. Wells is about 2 1/2 - 3 hrs from Salt Lake.
Or as an alternate, as if that wasn't thrilling enough, we could try to sneak into the Dugway Proving Ground's Granite Peak facility to watch the retrieval first hand. Be sure to pack your Kevlar flack jacket. (This is a joke people! I don't think they'd let us in.)
Any interest?
Dave Bennett
P.S. Patrick, will you be going anywhere for the re-entry?
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else?
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm>
Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball:
http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/ index.html>
-- Best wishes, Joe Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Quoting David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com>:
I'm not sure if you're referring to the dark skies, ufo sightings, or brothels but I'll take your word for it. And I'm less sure of how rested you'd be after any one of those 'attractions' ;)
Dark Skies, UFO's? No kidding? ;) I just now watched a recast of the NASA TV briefing of the planned Genesis snag tomorrow, and they are depicting the path of Genesis as traveling from Bend Oregon, through Idaho and then into Utah. Unfortunately their animation did not include Nevada. If you go to Wendover, Hwy 93 heads south off the main drag at the Peppermill Casino. Set your odometer to Zero and head south on 93 approximately 17 miles. You will see a sign off to the right that says Blue Lake. Turn left back towards Utah, first chance just past the sign. 8 miles down the road is Blue lake. The east edge of Blue Lake borders the Bombing Range. The dirt road you travelled in on, will take you in the back way to the bombing range. 200 yards directly south of the lake is a hill you can get up on and with Binoculars, view a large area of the bombing range. If I were going to try to position myself in an area favorable for viewing such an event, this might be the spot. From the parking lot at the lake, we've watched the Air Force make bombing runs. If you're a Scuba Diver, take your gear. Afterwards, take a dip in the 60 foot deep, 75 degree lake and swim with some record bluegills and small mouth bass. On the way home, stop off at the Peppermill Casino for a great meal. No kidding, dark skies and UFO's??? Who would have thunk it. ;) Guy
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:35 PM, diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
Everyone knows the best time to visit Wells is at night. And that way, you are rested and pretty much in place come morning. ;)
Quoting David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com>:
Anyone interested in a road trip to Wells, Nevada tomorrow morning for the Genesis reentry? Wells lies very close to the intersection of the reentry path and I-80/NV 93 according to the Nasa map (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/genesisreentry/ tigermap1024_grid.gif) The re-entry time would be 9:52 am MDT. Wells is about 2 1/2 - 3 hrs from Salt Lake.
Or as an alternate, as if that wasn't thrilling enough, we could try to sneak into the Dugway Proving Ground's Granite Peak facility to watch the retrieval first hand. Be sure to pack your Kevlar flack jacket. (This is a joke people! I don't think they'd let us in.)
Any interest?
Dave Bennett
P.S. Patrick, will you be going anywhere for the re-entry?
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else?
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/ 03sep_genesisreentry.htm>
Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball:
http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/ index.html>
-- Best wishes, Joe Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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How about a flight? For a total cost share of about $60.00 we could fly out and be back by lunch. That $60.00 would be split by up to 3 folks, if there are three interested and they fit in the plane. Total flight time is about three hours round trip. Brent --- David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com> wrote:
I'm not sure if you're referring to the dark skies, ufo sightings, or brothels but I'll take your word for it. And I'm less sure of how rested you'd be after any one of those 'attractions' ;)
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:35 PM, diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
Everyone knows the best time to visit Wells is at night. And that way, you are rested and pretty much in place come morning. ;)
Quoting David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com>:
Anyone interested in a road trip to Wells, Nevada tomorrow morning for the Genesis reentry? Wells lies very close to the intersection of the reentry path and I-80/NV 93 according to the Nasa map
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/genesisreentry/
tigermap1024_grid.gif) The re-entry time would be 9:52 am MDT. Wells is about 2 1/2 - 3 hrs from Salt Lake.
Or as an alternate, as if that wasn't thrilling enough, we could try to sneak into the Dugway Proving Ground's Granite Peak facility to watch the retrieval first hand. Be sure to pack your Kevlar flack jacket. (This is a joke people! I don't think they'd let us in.)
Any interest?
Dave Bennett
P.S. Patrick, will you be going anywhere for the re-entry?
On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I'm wondering - Since the "capture" is supposed to take place inside Utah, will the fireball be visible from near the UT/NV border? Any guesses Patrick, or anyone else?
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228
Kim and all others interested, here's a cite with the fireball's path:
03sep_genesisreentry.htm<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/
03sep_genesisreentry.htm>
Also, Space Weather says ham radio may be able to pick up static from the fireball:
http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html<http://www.spaceweather.com/
index.html>
-- Best wishes, Joe Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Funny that you should mention that. It's almost like you own an airplane or something. :-) Actually, I also played with the idea of flying. But then I remembered back to my first solar eclipse "expedition" back in '79 when I rented a 6 place. Sitting up front I got a nice view, as did the guy to my right, but the 4 folks in the back had much worse views. And that was with a relatively long event that was fairly low in the sky, very bright and that we knew right where it was. In the case of Genesis where we wont know exactly where to look or how long it will be visible and would be close to overhead the only way I could think of making the plane work would be to land. Alas, the company I rent from will not permit off airport landings. Of course, Brent, you make the rules for your plane and your plane has those big balloon tires. You planning on landing out there? Cheers! Patrick Brent Watson wrote:
How about a flight? For a total cost share of about $60.00 we could fly out and be back by lunch. That $60.00 would be split by up to 3 folks, if there are three interested and they fit in the plane. Total flight time is about three hours round trip.
Brenti
The plan right now is to land at wells and use the courtesy car to drive a bit west and north if possible. We'll see what comes. If I knew of another strip I'd consider it, but I don't. Brent --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
Funny that you should mention that. It's almost like you own an airplane or something. :-)
Actually, I also played with the idea of flying.
But then I remembered back to my first solar eclipse "expedition" back in '79 when I rented a 6 place. Sitting up front I got a nice view, as did the guy to my right, but the 4 folks in the back had much worse views. And that was with a relatively long event that was fairly low in the sky, very bright and that we knew right where it was.
In the case of Genesis where we wont know exactly where to look or how long it will be visible and would be close to overhead the only way I could think of making the plane work would be to land. Alas, the company I rent from will not permit off airport landings.
Of course, Brent, you make the rules for your plane and your plane has those big balloon tires. You planning on landing out there?
Cheers!
Patrick
Brent Watson wrote:
How about a flight? For a total cost share of
about
$60.00 we could fly out and be back by lunch. That $60.00 would be split by up to 3 folks, if there are three interested and they fit in the plane. Total flight time is about three hours round trip.
Brenti
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Looking at a Nevada state airport map (http://www.nevadadot.com/traveler/maps/statemaps/) I see that there is a strip just about 20 nautical miles to the NW of Wells called Marys River...just about perfect for the re-entry but alas it is listed as a private strip (R). Dave On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 10:12 PM, Brent Watson wrote:
The plan right now is to land at wells and use the courtesy car to drive a bit west and north if possible. We'll see what comes. If I knew of another strip I'd consider it, but I don't.
Brent
--- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
Funny that you should mention that. It's almost like you own an airplane or something. :-)
"Private" does not necessarily mean you can't land there. The former skydiving strip west of Lehi is a private strip but is not closed to the public. Brent, care to land there? Whatever y'all do, be sure to get pictures. Patrick David L Bennett wrote:
Looking at a Nevada state airport map (http://www.nevadadot.com/traveler/maps/statemaps/) I see that there is a strip just about 20 nautical miles to the NW of Wells called Marys River...just about perfect for the re-entry but alas it is listed as a private strip (R).
Davee
What amazes me about this mission is the expected pinpoint accuracy of the re-entry. Unless I'm mistaken, only 3 helicopters are involved, and they have to be in the actual drop zone to be able to try for the catch. I recall as a kid how the manned space capsules would come down far, far from the naval groups sent out to retrieve them, in some cases. I wonder if this reflects better tracking and/or telecommunications in the last 40 years??? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Chuck Hards wrote:
What amazes me about this mission is the expected pinpoint accuracy of the re-entry.
Well, not quite pinpoint. The craft is predicted to land within a ellipse that measures about 24x35 km. The recovery pilots don't expect to see it right away and will be told precisely where to head once radar gets a good track.
Unless I'm mistaken, only 3 helicopters are involved... The primary helicopter is followed by the backup (both of those are civilians). Those two are followed by a military helicopter that carries the on site commander and bringing up the rear is the media helicopter.
I understand that there will be at least one high altitude fixed wing aircraft with up looking cameras trying to get video of the reentry. Patrick
I heard on the news that it crashed... any news? Or is everyone out there picking up peices. =) Cyn
Looks like NASA did the bowling ball experiment for Patrick. Bill B.
"And if that chute don't open wide, I'll be burried on the country side", Airborne! "Who the hell is inspector 12"??? Guy
I gotta tell you, that tumblin' capsule looked pretty cool right up until the time the ground came into view. I've gotta think the "Stardust" team is in conference mode as we speak. Hopefully the Genesis team can salvage some of the data, and that this was just an isolated incident and not a forecast of things to come...
Like Beagle was isolated? Mars Polar Lander? Sorry, but the pattern has been etched in stone. Probably literally... --- diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
this was just an isolated incident and not a forecast of things to come...
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The strip is not listed in my Airport Guide. I'll check in the air by talking to folks nearby to see what the story is. We'll go there if possible. It is 2500 feet long, and only 5600 feet MSL. That would work well, but I have no way of getting info quite yet. Neither Flight Service nor Airnav has any information, except you need permission to land. I'll contact EKO and LWL FBO from the air. --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
"Private" does not necessarily mean you can't land there. The former skydiving strip west of Lehi is a private strip but is not closed to the public.
Brent, care to land there?
Whatever y'all do, be sure to get pictures.
Patrick
David L Bennett wrote:
Looking at a Nevada state airport map
(http://www.nevadadot.com/traveler/maps/statemaps/) I see that there is
a strip just about 20 nautical miles to the NW of Wells called Marys River...just about perfect for the re-entry but alas it is listed as a private strip (R).
Davee
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With apologies to Joe (I haven't read the Desnews pieces on this yet); We are at the absolute end of the track, and it is a very small capsule...I think this will appear more like an average meteor than a "fireball" (prepare to be underwhelmed) and from Utah I think very little or nothing neat will be seen. The fireworks will be all over long before it's over Utah. I also understand NASA not wanting people around when this thing re-enters, probably a big reason that capture is in restricted airspace. --- Kim Hyatt <kimharch@msn.com> wrote:
I'm interested in a desert trek to see the incoming fireball, if it can be seen from perhaps near the border. Is anyone else making such plans?
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When I first saw the NASA release on the reenty I thought about heading west to see it. But since even Wendover is so near the end of the track I suspected it might not be visible. So I emailed a contact on the project who said that it would not be visible from the ground anywhere along the track. There was no mention of seeing Genesis from the ground during today's Genesis news conference on NASA TV. And speaking of today's new conference (which was held at Dugway) I was surprised to see only one local reporter in the audience. The networks were there and BBC was there but only one local. I guess if I'd read Joe's post before watching the conference I would not have been so surprised. As for me, I plan on watching NASA TV's coverage tomorrow rather than drive to Nevada. Here's the schedule (from http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html ) for tomorrow (Wednesday) using MDT: 9:00 a.m. - Genesis Capture and Return Coverage - Dugway/JPL 1:30 p.m. - Genesis Post Capture and Return Press Conference - Dugway/JPL 2:30 p.m. - Live Interviews on Genesis Mission Patrick Chuck Hards wrote:
With apologies to Joe (I haven't read the Desnews pieces on this yet);
We are at the absolute end of the track, and it is a very small capsule...I think this will appear more like an average meteor than a "fireball" (prepare to be underwhelmed) and from Utah I think very little or nothing neat will be seen. The fireworks will be all over long before it's over Utah.
I also understand NASA not wanting people around when this thing re-enters, probably a big reason that capture is in restricted airspace.
--- Kim Hyatt <kimharch@msn.com> wrote:
I'm interested in a desert trek to see the incoming fireball, if it can be seen from perhaps near the border. Is anyone else making such plans?t
If the predicted visual magnitude is -9, why would it not be visible from anywhere along the flight path? Granted, it's daylight, but it's a moving target, easier to find than a stationary one (I think) and NASA's news release says it could be visible from up to 100 miles away from the flight path. Can anyone clarify? Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Wiggins<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 1:15 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Genesis! When I first saw the NASA release on the reenty I thought about heading west to see it. But since even Wendover is so near the end of the track I suspected it might not be visible. So I emailed a contact on the project who said that it would not be visible from the ground anywhere along the track. There was no mention of seeing Genesis from the ground during today's Genesis news conference on NASA TV. And speaking of today's new conference (which was held at Dugway) I was surprised to see only one local reporter in the audience. The networks were there and BBC was there but only one local. I guess if I'd read Joe's post before watching the conference I would not have been so surprised. As for me, I plan on watching NASA TV's coverage tomorrow rather than drive to Nevada. Here's the schedule (from http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html<http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html> ) for tomorrow (Wednesday) using MDT: 9:00 a.m. - Genesis Capture and Return Coverage - Dugway/JPL 1:30 p.m. - Genesis Post Capture and Return Press Conference - Dugway/JPL 2:30 p.m. - Live Interviews on Genesis Mission Patrick Chuck Hards wrote:
With apologies to Joe (I haven't read the Desnews pieces on this yet);
We are at the absolute end of the track, and it is a very small capsule...I think this will appear more like an average meteor than a "fireball" (prepare to be underwhelmed) and from Utah I think very little or nothing neat will be seen. The fireworks will be all over long before it's over Utah.
I also understand NASA not wanting people around when this thing re-enters, probably a big reason that capture is in restricted airspace.
--- Kim Hyatt <kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com>> wrote:
I'm interested in a desert trek to see the incoming fireball, if it can be seen from perhaps near the border. Is anyone else making such plans?t
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From what I gather, from both the info in the NASA article and Patrick's contact, there isn't much of a consensus as to what we might see. We go from not seeing anything (would that be 0 times as bright as Venus?) to 100 times as bright as Venus at -9. I think the range is worth giving it a shot. This is a 1 meter object coming in...I'm betting it's going to give us a show despite the daylight hour. db On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:28 PM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
If the predicted visual magnitude is -9, why would it not be visible from anywhere along the flight path? Granted, it's daylight, but it's a moving target, easier to find than a stationary one (I think) and NASA's news release says it could be visible from up to 100 miles away from the flight path. Can anyone clarify?
Dave Jackpot looks like it would be a good location. If you can't see anything, go into the casino and you will come out seeing stars. JG David L Bennett <dlbennett@mac.com> wrote:
From what I gather, from both the info in the NASA article and Patrick's contact, there isn't much of a consensus as to what we might see. We go from not seeing anything (would that be 0 times as bright as Venus?) to 100 times as bright as Venus at -9. I think the range is worth giving it a shot. This is a 1 meter object coming in...I'm betting it's going to give us a show despite the daylight hour.
db On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:28 PM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
If the predicted visual magnitude is -9, why would it not be visible from anywhere along the flight path? Granted, it's daylight, but it's a moving target, easier to find than a stationary one (I think) and NASA's news release says it could be visible from up to 100 miles away from the flight path. Can anyone clarify?
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Dave Jackpot looks like it would be a good location. If you can't see anything, go into the casino and you will come out seeing stars.
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Dave Actually Wells is better. I was reading the map wrong. I remember having a good breakfast there. JG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
I think I'll try answering three at once. David L Bennett wrote:
From what I gather, from both the info in the NASA article and Patrick's contact, there isn't much of a consensus as to what we might see.
You noticed that too, eh? I emailed the author of the release (a NASA PR person) last week asking for clarification but he has not replied. I also emailed my contact at the Genesis mission (not a PR person) and she's the one that said it would not be visible. I replied to her that, that being the case, the release could make for a lot of disappointed people that will be headed out to see something that can not be seen. Kim Hyatt wrote:
If the predicted visual magnitude is -9, why would it not be visible from anywhere along the flight path?
To be fair to my Genesis contact, I only asked about the portion of the trajectory near Wendover. So when she said it would not be visible along the track she may have meant only the portion I asked about. I would *think* that when it's further up the track and blazing at -9 to -12 it would be visible (after all, many of us have seen Iridium flares in daylight and I don't think they get brighter than -8). This supposition seems to be borne out by this chart on spaceweather.com: http://spaceweather.com/swpod2004/07sep04/genesis_reentry_brightness2.gif Alas, comparing that chart to a Nevada state road map, there are no roads at the point indicated as the brightest part of the track and by the time it crosses I-80 it indicates "Rapid fading". Still I must admit to starting to rethink my original plan of staying home. diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
I just now watched a recast of the NASA TV briefing of the planned Genesis snag tomorrow, and they are depicting the path of Genesis as traveling from Bend Oregon, through Idaho and then into Utah. Unfortunately their animation did not include Nevada.
I've replayed that segment of the news conference several times and I'm pretty sure it did not take perspective into account and that it was only intended to show altitudes and events, not ground track. Patrick
Thanks, Patrick for the info. If NASA's original info is correct and the fireball should be visible from up to 100 miles away, then it looks like I80 near Wells is well placed to view the event (or non-event as some have said) at maximum brightness . Anyway, I think I'll give it a try. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Wiggins<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Genesis! I think I'll try answering three at once. David L Bennett wrote:
From what I gather, from both the info in the NASA article and Patrick's contact, there isn't much of a consensus as to what we might see.
You noticed that too, eh? I emailed the author of the release (a NASA PR person) last week asking for clarification but he has not replied. I also emailed my contact at the Genesis mission (not a PR person) and she's the one that said it would not be visible. I replied to her that, that being the case, the release could make for a lot of disappointed people that will be headed out to see something that can not be seen. Kim Hyatt wrote:
If the predicted visual magnitude is -9, why would it not be visible from anywhere along the flight path?
To be fair to my Genesis contact, I only asked about the portion of the trajectory near Wendover. So when she said it would not be visible along the track she may have meant only the portion I asked about. I would *think* that when it's further up the track and blazing at -9 to -12 it would be visible (after all, many of us have seen Iridium flares in daylight and I don't think they get brighter than -8). This supposition seems to be borne out by this chart on spaceweather.com: http://spaceweather.com/swpod2004/07sep04/genesis_reentry_brightness2.gif<http://spaceweather.com/swpod2004/07sep04/genesis_reentry_brightness2.gif> Alas, comparing that chart to a Nevada state road map, there are no roads at the point indicated as the brightest part of the track and by the time it crosses I-80 it indicates "Rapid fading". Still I must admit to starting to rethink my original plan of staying home. diveboss@xmission.com<mailto:diveboss@xmission.com> wrote:
I just now watched a recast of the NASA TV briefing of the planned Genesis snag tomorrow, and they are depicting the path of Genesis as traveling from Bend Oregon, through Idaho and then into Utah. Unfortunately their animation did not include Nevada.
I've replayed that segment of the news conference several times and I'm pretty sure it did not take perspective into account and that it was only intended to show altitudes and events, not ground track. Patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com<http://www.utahastronomy.com/>
diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
I just now watched a recast of the NASA TV briefing of the planned
Genesis
snag tomorrow, and they are depicting the path of Genesis as traveling from Bend Oregon, through Idaho and then into Utah. Unfortunately their animation did not include Nevada. I've replayed that segment of the news conference several times and I'm pretty sure it did not take perspective into account and that it was only intended to show altitudes and events, not ground track.
Patrick
I agree. I just watched the rebroadcast for the third time and Genesis would have to make one hell of a hook to the south to avoid Nevada. From my recollection of High School Physics, which I failed I might add, it would be impossible for an object in free fall to make such a turn unless it were hit by some other force. So, nevermind the Idaho thing... Guy
Thanks for the link Patrick. My wife won't let me go to Wells, so I guess I will stay home and watch it on T.V. Guy Quoting Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net>:
When I first saw the NASA release on the reenty I thought about heading west to see it. But since even Wendover is so near the end of the track I suspected it might not be visible. So I emailed a contact on the project who said that it would not be visible from the ground anywhere along the track.
There was no mention of seeing Genesis from the ground during today's Genesis news conference on NASA TV.
And speaking of today's new conference (which was held at Dugway) I was surprised to see only one local reporter in the audience. The networks were there and BBC was there but only one local. I guess if I'd read Joe's post before watching the conference I would not have been so surprised.
As for me, I plan on watching NASA TV's coverage tomorrow rather than drive to Nevada. Here's the schedule (from http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html ) for tomorrow (Wednesday) using MDT:
9:00 a.m. - Genesis Capture and Return Coverage - Dugway/JPL 1:30 p.m. - Genesis Post Capture and Return Press Conference - Dugway/JPL 2:30 p.m. - Live Interviews on Genesis Mission
Patrick
Chuck Hards wrote:
With apologies to Joe (I haven't read the Desnews pieces on this yet);
We are at the absolute end of the track, and it is a very small capsule...I think this will appear more like an average meteor than a "fireball" (prepare to be underwhelmed) and from Utah I think very little or nothing neat will be seen. The fireworks will be all over long before it's over Utah.
I also understand NASA not wanting people around when this thing re-enters, probably a big reason that capture is in restricted airspace.
--- Kim Hyatt <kimharch@msn.com> wrote:
I'm interested in a desert trek to see the incoming fireball, if it can be seen from perhaps near the border. Is anyone else making such plans?t
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NASA need public support or they don't function. So with that in mind, who do we contact at NASA to voice our displeasure over their lack of courtesy in this matter? I thought Patrick was the Utah NASA ambassador... Was he not given all the details first hand? As a proud recipient of bulk mail, NASA sent me an email which I posted here titled "Incoming" around September 3rd, which provided a link to the complete story regarding the September 8th event. Here is the link to the story for those who may have missed it: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/03sep_genesisreentry.htm?list1153573 Isn't NASA T.V. going to carry the "Snag" live? Their program menu doesn't show this as being scheduled. With all the high energy programing the NASA channel is known for, you would think they could stick this event somewhere between the daily "watch the paint dry" series called "Video File", or, the ever exciting "ISS Mission Coverage", where viewers are encouraged to close their eye's and reflect. ;) Since NASA doesn't seem interested in providing the local news media first hand information about things happening in our own back yard, perhaps we can take up a collection to rent an airplane for tomorrow, so Patrick can BUZZ the area and steal the show. ;) I'll donate $10.00 towards the rental of the plane and another $5.00 towards his bail. Oh what the hell, put the whole $15.00 towards the plane... ;) Guy Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Hi Friends, I guess this is sort of "toot your own horn" time for me -- but also I believe you're all (or almost all) interested in the fascinating Genesis project. The sidebar story tells where you can watch it live.
I tried as hard as I could with NASA to have a consultant, our own Patrick, go out to Dugway with me and provide commentary as it was happening, but the NASA guy refused. What makes it even more irritating is that NASA has NOT been good about contacting the local media or making things easier for us. They sent out at least one notice that we and at another Utah media outlet (maybe more than one) have not received from NASA. We only got the word second-hand from such sources as the U. of U. and Dugway, who were looking out for us. My feeling is that NASA is playing to national and international media and basically not giving a hoot about Utah. When I sent them an email asking that they specify which outlets had received a particular press release, they ignored me.
Anyway, here are links for Monday's story:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089440,00.html
and the sidebar:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html
Best wishes, Joe
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Hi Guy, Pls don't mention anything to NASA -- I don't want to make a big issue out of it because we need to kind of be careful around these guys. There's another capture coming up, Stardust, and we don't want any glitches with our coverage of that. So it's best to not make too much noise. Meanwhile, here's where you can watch it live; also, NASA will carry it on their NASA TV web site. Best wishes, Joe http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html
What are these guy's from NASA, girlie men? ;) Okay then, I won't say anything this time, but they better watch it! ;) Thanks Joe... Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Hi Guy, Pls don't mention anything to NASA -- I don't want to make a big issue out of it because we need to kind of be careful around these guys. There's another capture coming up, Stardust, and we don't want any glitches with our coverage of that. So it's best to not make too much noise. Meanwhile, here's where you can watch it live; also, NASA will carry it on their NASA TV web site. Best wishes, Joe
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595089366,00.html
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They primarily defended the mail not on pure contact grounds, but as part of a functional information transfer. Even stated that it is fairly easy to get the package from one system to the next, the destination star itself being the perfect homing beacon. I got the impression they weren't talking about the monolith, but something more like Rama. --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
What's wrong with the physical mail theory is that the likelihood of the package ending up in any creature's hands, paws, tentacles or gloobuleers (Alpha Centaurian word) is vanishingly remote.
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On the show, the guy from the SETI at Home program indicated that they felt it much more likely that they would detect incidental activity rather than a directed message. Even so, all you've got to do is fiddle with the values of the Drake equation just a bit and any likelihood of advanced civilizations existing at the same time in the same neighborhood could be quite low--I hope it's not vanishingly low. And while we like to hope that advanced civilizations have gotten past all the pettiness that humanity exhibits, other civilizations may be as prone to periodic collapse as human civilizations. Given the relative youth of our own species, we don't really know yet if highly-intelligent creatures are really favored by evolution. The possible likelihood that civilizations don't overlap in time may work in favor of some type of physical message. Once any electromagnetic signal goes past us, it's unrecoverable. Michael P.S. The thing that makes this topic so maddening is that we're currently the only example of a civilization that we know of. With a single data point, you can extrapolate in any direction.
Too, isn't the "we are here" broadcast primarily what all SETI programs are looking for?
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Here's what Space Daily had to say on the subject: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-04g.html Patrick Chuck Hards wrote:
I only caught a portion of the show, but NPR's Talk of the Nation, "Science Friday" show this week was on the subject of SETI. The usual suspects were interviewed, but what grabbed my attention was a new concept, for me anyway, that the most ecconomical way to move information across cosmic distances isn't via electromagnetic radiation. Lasers, radio, microwaves, they all lose to....the mail. I didn't get the details but I think the researchers were computer networking specialists who came to the problem through a back door, so to speak. They postulate that it's much more efficient to load up a "mail truck" with data on media and send it on it's way to it's destination star. Yes, timeliness weighs into the equation also, but even so the slow boat wins. Based on that idea, they are now trying to figure out where the mail of advanced beings would be, that we may actually start to look for it! Possibilities include the interiors of asteroids, comets, planetessimals, etc. If anyone hears when this show will be rebroadcast, please post, thanks.
It would be interesting indeed if the messages were found encoded in genetic material...somebody applies the right algorithm to a gene sequence, and the plans for a starship start printing-out... --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
Here's what Space Daily had to say on the subject:
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I know this is likely to bother some folks, but what the heck... I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exist, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that God exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with God and other evidence abound. Carl Sagan was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in extraterrestrial intelligences and his concurrent denial of God were both laughable in their twisted logic. The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for extraterrestrials without the tiniest bit of evidence that such beings might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact God. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Hards<mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: SETI It would be interesting indeed if the messages were found encoded in genetic material...somebody applies the right algorithm to a gene sequence, and the plans for a starship start printing-out... --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net>> wrote:
Here's what Space Daily had to say on the subject:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-04g.html<http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-04g.html>
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Just to add my two bits, If someone wants to run SETI at home as a personal hobby, I have no problem with that. But when NASA is overly Saganized, and uses search for life to justify so many of its missions, it disgusts me. The beauty and wonder of science exploration is sufficient justification (except when I listen to my libertarian side which tells me gov't has far exceeded its role). The NASA "life on Mars" pitches causes me to roll my eyes, and emotionally I become less supportive. I was especially disgusted with the "bacterial fossils on meteorites from Mars recovered in Antarctica" hubbub several years ago. It was trumpeted so loudly when there was so little actually known. While playing the curmudgeon I must confess that I have yet to be convinced that ISS is a good investment. I held that view even before Columbia's demise made it far more tenuous than previously. Yes, the vibrating water membranes are fascinating to watch, and doubtless we will learn from the mission. But it is so expensive and cumbersome. climbing down off soapbox now, Jim ---- Jim Cobb james@cobb.name On Sep 6, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Kim Hyatt wrote:
I know this is likely to bother some folks, but what the heck...
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exist, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that God exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with God and other evidence abound. Carl Sagan was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in extraterrestrial intelligences and his concurrent denial of God were both laughable in their twisted logic.
The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for extraterrestrials without the tiniest bit of evidence that such beings might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact God.
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com>
serius est quam cogitas
I have to do this, although I firmly believe in God, and doubt that intelligent life has visited this earth (and many days, that includes the human race.). But the reverse is just as rational a statement. To wit: I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with intelligent extraterrestrial beings and other evidence abound. Pope John Paul II was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in God and his concurrent denial of intelligent extraterrestrial beings were both laughable in their twisted logic. The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for God without the tiniest bit of evidence that such a God might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact intelligent extraterrestrial beings. At 11:25 AM 9/6/2004 -0600, you wrote:
I know this is likely to bother some folks, but what the heck...
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exist, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that God exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with God and other evidence abound. Carl Sagan was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in extraterrestrial intelligences and his concurrent denial of God were both laughable in their twisted logic.
The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for extraterrestrials without the tiniest bit of evidence that such beings might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact God.
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com>
serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Hards<mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: SETI
It would be interesting indeed if the messages were found encoded in genetic material...somebody applies the right algorithm to a gene sequence, and the plans for a starship start printing-out...
--- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net>> wrote:
Here's what Space Daily had to say on the subject:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-04g.html<http://www.spacedaily.com/news/ seti-04g.html>
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The difference arises because so many of the SETI enthusiasts cite science as their foundation... Perhaps for fun we should also toss evolutionists onto the examination table. Jim ---- Jim Cobb james@cobb.name On Sep 6, 2004, at 12:01 PM, Josephine Grahn wrote:
I have to do this, although I firmly believe in God, and doubt that intelligent life has visited this earth (and many days, that includes the human race.). But the reverse is just as rational a statement. To wit: [...]
If I touched any nerves then my time was well spent. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Josephine Grahn<mailto:bsi@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: SETI I have to do this, although I firmly believe in God, and doubt that intelligent life has visited this earth (and many days, that includes the human race.). But the reverse is just as rational a statement. To wit: I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with intelligent extraterrestrial beings and other evidence abound. Pope John Paul II was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in God and his concurrent denial of intelligent extraterrestrial beings were both laughable in their twisted logic. The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for God without the tiniest bit of evidence that such a God might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact intelligent extraterrestrial beings. At 11:25 AM 9/6/2004 -0600, you wrote:
I know this is likely to bother some folks, but what the heck...
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial beings exist, without the remotest shred of evidence, yet at the same time many of these same people dismiss the possibility that God exists although testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with God and other evidence abound. Carl Sagan was one such person who comes to mind. His stubborn belief in extraterrestrial intelligences and his concurrent denial of God were both laughable in their twisted logic.
The bottom line is, why waste resources looking for extraterrestrials without the tiniest bit of evidence that such beings might even exist? Where are the "science" and logic in that? To be consistent, such energy would be just as profitable for earth-bound intelligence if it were spent trying to contact God.
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com>>
serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Hards<mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com<mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com>> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: SETI
It would be interesting indeed if the messages were found encoded in genetic material...somebody applies the right algorithm to a gene sequence, and the plans for a starship start printing-out...
--- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net<mailto:paw@trilobyte.net>>> wrote:
Here's what Space Daily had to say on the subject:
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Chiming in my two cents here... Let's face it, we humans have at least one or two genomic sequences that compel us to explore and discover. I say we cover all our bases and make both frontiers a priority -- the spiritual with the secular works for me! I am hopeful at least that in either endeavor we can somehow figure out how to get along as a species and cooperatively extend the reach of our expeditions. I for one would never turn down a berth on the Enterprise... Meanwhile, I appreciate the community of friends here with so many good ideas to kick around; y'all sure keep life interesting! -Rich PS, I've personally processed over 27,863 SETI work units (I'm in the top 4,800 in the world; not bad considering there are over 5 million running the program). I also started the "Utah Astronomers" group. Feel free to join up if you want to put your idle CPU to good use: http://setiathome2.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_89516.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Well, I certainly didn't mean for a mess to happen, but here's my mop: The spriritual journey is a private one for each person and doesn't belong in a debate. Faith is belief without works, remember? Building a case is therefore meaningless except internally. Some probably try and convince themselves in such instances, subconsciously. Make the next guy believe and they suddenly have a little more reinforcement, eh? And if words don't work then the sword (and all of it's derivatives), historically, is turned to, fully sanctioned of course. But hey, lets get really annoyed if the NASA marketing people try and pitch things in a light that might make funding just a tad easier. We can take the high ground because we have it right and they have it wrong and they all must think like tabloid journalists and our logic is so damn pure and flawless and there is just no way that most of them think the sensationalism is bunk too. Besides we are so brimming with brand new ideas that no-one's pitched yet, and it's just a shame that the grants aren't flowing our way in droves. Space is kinda big to be shaking our fist on a soapbox about, don't you think? Let's look up and laugh instead, gaze in wonder and amazement. Explain it to ourselves so we think we get it, and not be bothered if the next person fills-in the details just a little bit differently. C. "I'm going to be happy if it kills me." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence...
On the contrary! In a similar discussion some time back (a year or so ago now probably), Chuck and others cited Beer and beautiful women as absolute certain proof... ;o) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Well, keeping in mind that I was simply showing the ease of reversing an argument, and most definitely not saying that I thought EITHER argument was good....... I would have to agree, Beer and handsome men ARE proof of God..... :) At 01:11 PM 9/6/2004 -0700, you wrote:
--- Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence...
On the contrary! In a similar discussion some time back (a year or so ago now probably), Chuck and others cited Beer and beautiful women as absolute certain proof... ;o)
I didn't realize that credible evidence or credible witnesses for intelligent extraterrestrial life had been found. Otherwise, the "argument" (I didn't realize I had argued anything) cannot be reversed. Had more to say...changed my mind. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Josephine Grahn<mailto:bsi@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: SETI (evidence) Well, keeping in mind that I was simply showing the ease of reversing an argument, and most definitely not saying that I thought EITHER argument was good....... I would have to agree, Beer and handsome men ARE proof of God..... :) At 01:11 PM 9/6/2004 -0700, you wrote:
--- Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com<mailto:bsi@xmission.com>> wrote:
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence...
On the contrary! In a similar discussion some time back (a year or so ago now probably), Chuck and others cited Beer and beautiful women as absolute certain proof... ;o)
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Kim, I''m sorry. In your first post you did not say credible, you simply said " ...testimonials of persons who claim to have spoken with God and other evidence abound." Now, for every person that says they have talked to God, there is at least one that says they have talked to extraterrestrials. (Some say they have had even more intimate interactions.) Now, if you want to talk credibility, I'm outta here. I am perfectly willing to have a little fun with a paragraph that can be reversed, but, as I already said, I believe in God, and I do not believe that extra-terrestrials have visited earth (unless you count Patrick...:)). I won't ever argue against the existence of a God or a Higher Power. I just was struck by the wording of your original paragraph, and how perfectly it could be reversed, because there are "lots" of people out there that claim to have spoken with extraterrestrials. It really was only meant to add a little humor into a statement that was.... different ... than your usual posts. Jo At 04:19 PM 9/6/2004 -0600, you wrote:
I didn't realize that credible evidence or credible witnesses for intelligent extraterrestrial life had been found. Otherwise, the "argument" (I didn't realize I had argued anything) cannot be reversed.
Had more to say...changed my mind.
Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com>
serius est quam cogitas
Personal experience here. When I was a young Marine and far from home, I once engaged in conversation with what I thought to be at the time, an "extra"-ordinary young lady, while consuming copious quantities of beer in a darkened corner of a local bar. One thing led to another and I spent the rest of that evening with her, blind drunk by her beauty (and the beer). In the morning, as the sun crept up over the mountains, filtering through the hair on her back and into my now sobering eyes, I caught the first true sight of the beast. So YES, I am a believer that these things can, and do, exist. I may still have one of her teeth kicking around here somewhere as proof. ;) Ooops, the topic was SETI not YETI. In that case... nevermind! ;) Quoting Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com>:
Well, keeping in mind that I was simply showing the ease of reversing an argument, and most definitely not saying that I thought EITHER argument was good....... I would have to agree, Beer and handsome men ARE proof of God..... :)
At 01:11 PM 9/6/2004 -0700, you wrote:
--- Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
I'm always astonished that scientists and lay persons alike are so willing to accept the possibility that God exists, without the remotest shred of evidence...
On the contrary! In a similar discussion some time back (a year or so ago now probably), Chuck and others cited Beer and beautiful women as absolute certain proof... ;o)
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participants (14)
-
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
Cynthia Blue -
David L Bennett -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Jim Cobb -
Jim Gibson -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Kim Hyatt -
Michael Carnes -
Patrick Wiggins -
Richard Tenney -
William Biesele