Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/ also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils? Just interested. Best, Shoshana
Shoshana - Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question. A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced. Bob Grant ________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP Chuck, this too http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/ also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils? Just interested. Best, Shoshana _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ... Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ... Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Bob There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP Shoshana - Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question. A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced. Bob Grant ________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP Chuck, this too http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/ also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils? Just interested. Best, Shoshana _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ... Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ... Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual. Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club.
To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Those who doubt what I say should read Article X of our Constitution, which forbids even “propaganda” and advocating for legislative type actions. Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club.
To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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I would respectfully disagree with Joe’s analysis of what our club is allowed to do. We are an educational organization. When we have discussions with the various developers and politicians, we are fulfilling our duty of educating them about light pollution and assisting them in seeing the alternatives that would yield the result they want, without the adverse affect on their constituents. We are not trying to sell them anything, just trying to assist them in doing their job for the best of everyone. Josephine
On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club.
To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Josephine, Well put I totally agree. It is our responsibility to make the public and politicians aware of light pollution. I can see what Joe is protecting our club from and yes we should avoid discussing liberal or conservative views and leave each of our members open and comfortable with their own beliefs. Thanks Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: Utah-Astronomy [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:14 PM To: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>; Utah Astronomy List Serv <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP I would respectfully disagree with Joe’s analysis of what our club is allowed to do. We are an educational organization. When we have discussions with the various developers and politicians, we are fulfilling our duty of educating them about light pollution and assisting them in seeing the alternatives that would yield the result they want, without the adverse affect on their constituents. We are not trying to sell them anything, just trying to assist them in doing their job for the best of everyone. Josephine
On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-as tronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
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Please read Article X. Any propagandizing aimed at legislative type actions is prohibited, period. As a member of the board, I will vigorously oppose actions that violate our rule against trying to influence any legislation. The requirement is as clear as it could be. Educating the public or legislators is against the rule. Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> wrote:
Josephine,
Well put I totally agree. It is our responsibility to make the public and politicians aware of light pollution. I can see what Joe is protecting our club from and yes we should avoid discussing liberal or conservative views and leave each of our members open and comfortable with their own beliefs.
Thanks Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: Utah-Astronomy [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:14 PM To: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>; Utah Astronomy List Serv <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
I would respectfully disagree with Joe’s analysis of what our club is allowed to do. We are an educational organization. When we have discussions with the various developers and politicians, we are fulfilling our duty of educating them about light pollution and assisting them in seeing the alternatives that would yield the result they want, without the adverse affect on their constituents. We are not trying to sell them anything, just trying to assist them in doing their job for the best of everyone.
Josephine
On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-as tronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club.
To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-as tronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Correction: I was distracted by the (gruff and unfriendly) waiter when I wrote the below comment. I did not mean what I did say, “Educating the public or legislators is against the rule.” Obviously it’s not. What I was trying to say was “Propagandizing the public or legislators is against the rule.” Excuse my use of the wrong word. — Joe Bauman Please read Article X. Any propagandizing aimed at legislative type actions is prohibited, period. As a member of the board, I will vigorously oppose actions that violate our rule against trying to influence any legislation. The requirement is as clear as it could be. Educating the public or legislators is against the rule. Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> wrote:
Josephine,
Well put I totally agree. It is our responsibility to make the public and politicians aware of light pollution. I can see what Joe is protecting our club from and yes we should avoid discussing liberal or conservative views and leave each of our members open and comfortable with their own beliefs.
Thanks Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: Utah-Astronomy [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:14 PM To: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>; Utah Astronomy List Serv <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
I would respectfully disagree with Joe’s analysis of what our club is allowed to do. We are an educational organization. When we have discussions with the various developers and politicians, we are fulfilling our duty of educating them about light pollution and assisting them in seeing the alternatives that would yield the result they want, without the adverse affect on their constituents. We are not trying to sell them anything, just trying to assist them in doing their job for the best of everyone.
Josephine
On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The club’s Constitution prohibits from any action that could be considered of a political nature — and we need to respect that to maintain our nonprofit advantages. In my opinion, any project that would require legislative or council voting — such as a light-pollution ordinance — would fall under the prohibition. So let’s steer clear of this topic as a club. Of course anyone is free to advocate anything as an individual.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:59 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Bob
There is a great deal the developers can do to mitigate the problem of light pollution. Full Cut-off shielding for every light source, won't do much if it is only applied to street lighting, but would do a tremendous amount of good for the neighbors and at minimal cost. Equally important is the type of lighting installed. Check with the IDA for what is appropriate. Their recommendations would be a substantial cost savings to the developer - over time, with lower wattage bulbs that aim the light to the ground where it is needed. Money talks. I'm not sure the development will go as presently envisioned. Appears a lot of residents oppose it, mostly for the incredible amount of traffic it will engender. The streets presently in the area don't seem capable of handling the traffic. Those streets will have to be widened. The developers envision a "Sugar House" atmosphere with a combination of shops and condominiums in a small space, a virtual community within a community - all on 56 acres. Holladay City is probably salivating at the tax dollars such a development would generate. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB MARILYN" <CINCOYMAYA@msn.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:45:34 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Shoshana -
Chuck had posted his question following my question to him, so I can answer your question.
A friend of mine lives on the boundary of the old Cottonwood Mall property. About a month ago, he sent me a link to the proposed development plan that is under consideration by Holladay City. ( I was surprised to see areas that appear not much wider than a lawn mower are considered "open space".) As an immediate neighbor to the project, he has several concerns about how it will impact him - building height, population density, traffic, shopping availability, open space, noise, parking, lighting, etc. He was unable to attend the first hearing, but did make it to the second one. We talked about it for the first time on Friday. In the course of that conversation, after discussing the issues that are much more pressing for him, I was the one who brought up the topic of light pollution. He said the project managers had quoted some specs regarding light intensity per area, but in terms that laymen can't relate to. I offered to see if there are some local people that have a better understanding of just how bright this development will be, which led to my question to Chuck, and his subsequent inquiry to this group. So, in a sense, I saw an opportunity to expand the conversation a little more toward light pollution, find a source for questions that were raised, and maybe alert people with a better understanding of this issue that the design of this project may yet be influenced.
Bob Grant
________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Sue Ellen Ebertz <ebertzs@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 23:47 To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 178, Issue 2 Dark Sky ASAP
Chuck, this too
http://www.artificiallightatnight.org/
also there are articles from 2016 conference that might be able to be used
have you been trying in the SLV? To talk to planning dept etc? and city councils?
Just interested.
Best, Shoshana
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Utah-Astronomy Info Page - XMission<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-as tronomy> mailman.xmission.com This email list is for people interested in Astronomy in Utah. Discussion includes astronomical objects, telescope making and accessories, current astronomical events ...
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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participants (6)
-
BOB MARILYN -
Joan Carman -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Rodger C. Fry -
Sue Ellen Ebertz