Greetings and Happy Saturday... At age 62, my neck no longer supports standing on my head nor does it allow for greater than ninety degree rotations either direction of straight ahead. For that reason, I am looking to implement a right-angle finder scope for a Dobsonian that I have. I am aware of two commercial products. These are: 1. Orion 9x50 Illuminated Right-Angle CI Finder Scope ($129 at Amazon) 2. Orion 9x50 Right-Angle Correct-Image Finder ($89.99 at Amazon) There may be others. My questions are: 1. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why? 2. Could one use a "standard" finder scope and mount it at right anges with the use of a mirror? In other words, mount a mirror on the scope to direct the sky image away from the scope at a ninety degree angle and use a finder scope to look into that mirror. Could this not be a $10 solution to a $90 problem? This is my first post here so, if there is a FAQ somewhere on this topic, please let me know. -- Watch 'Yer Top Knot and Keep Your Powder Dry, James Richard Harvey - The Wyoming Geezer The Great Curmudgeon AKA El Gran Cascarrabias AKA J. Peter Fudpucker Hunkered down on Planet Earth "If they give you ruled paper, write the other way." *Juan Ramón Jiménez Mantecón (1881 - 1958), As quoted in the epigraph in **Fahrenheit 451* <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451>* (1953) by **Ray Bradbury * <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury>*;*
. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why?
I think it is a cost issue, they will sell more if they can keep the cost down. It is easy to make it right angle by buying a star diagonal. Quality varies on these, I prefer to make my own choices on what quality to buy. On the Grim making the finders right-angle would render them useless, IE it all depends on your optical system. I have always found a device like a telrad reduces neck craning a great deal and you don't need to be old for this to be a problem. Greetings and Happy Saturday...
At age 62, my neck no longer supports standing on my head nor does it allow for greater than ninety degree rotations either direction of straight ahead. For that reason, I am looking to implement a right-angle finder scope for a Dobsonian that I have.
I am aware of two commercial products. These are: 1. Orion 9x50 Illuminated Right-Angle CI Finder Scope ($129 at Amazon) 2. Orion 9x50 Right-Angle Correct-Image Finder ($89.99 at Amazon)
There may be others.
My questions are:
1. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why? 2. Could one use a "standard" finder scope and mount it at right anges with the use of a mirror? In other words, mount a mirror on the scope to direct the sky image away from the scope at a ninety degree angle and use a finder scope to look into that mirror. Could this not be a $10 solution to a $90 problem?
This is my first post here so, if there is a FAQ somewhere on this topic, please let me know.
-- Watch 'Yer Top Knot and Keep Your Powder Dry,
James Richard Harvey - The Wyoming Geezer The Great Curmudgeon AKA El Gran Cascarrabias AKA J. Peter Fudpucker Hunkered down on Planet Earth
"If they give you ruled paper, write the other way." *Juan Ramón Jiménez Mantecón (1881 - 1958), As quoted in the epigraph in **Fahrenheit 451* <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451>* (1953) by **Ray Bradbury * <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury>*;* _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Hi James, welcome to the list. I'd agree with Erik that cost certainly figures into the lack of choice on commercial right-angle finders. However, neck-pains aside, there is another reason that they aren't more widespread in use. Straight finders inherently have you looking in the direction the telescope is pointing. Referencing the telescope against the target area on the sky is an intuitive operation. Think of trying to aim a rifle with a right-angle scope. Not as easy as it was when you were sighting down the barrel before you put your eye to the scope. You are already in the general neighborhood of the target. I use both straight-through and right-angle finders, depending on the main scope I'm using at the moment. I generally prefer straight-through for the sake of expediency, even though one must do a bit of contortion at times. I find it very easy, keeping both eyes open, to superimpose the cross-hairs in the finder with the spot in the sky I think the target is at. After all these years, I'm almost always dead-on. You can't do that with a right-angle finder. I suppose what I do with both eyes open is a sort of mental reflex sight. When using a right-angle finder, I still must sometimes sight along the main tube just to get the scope in the neighborhood of the target, before going to the finder eyepiece. A mirror-reversed image is much harder to mentally flip than a simple inverted image, at least for me. YMMV. A correct-image right-angle finder helps this problem. Red-dot reflex sights still have you putting your head in the same positions as a straight through finder. Probably the easiest finder I have ever used, regardless of scope or mount type, is a green laser mounted as a finder, in an adjustable bracket. I have a momentary switch on a long cord so you don't have to push on the laser button itself while using it, which may disturb the telescope's aim. It essentially gives you an infinitely long pointer. You just place the end of the pointer (laser beam) on the spot on the sky where your target is. No head contortions at all. Hope this helps. C. On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:08 AM, James Harvey <wyominggeezer@gmail.com>wrote:
My questions are:
1. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why? 2. Could one use a "standard" finder scope and mount it at right anges with the use of a mirror? In other words, mount a mirror on the scope to direct the sky image away from the scope at a ninety degree angle and use a finder scope to look into that mirror. Could this not be a $10 solution to a $90 problem?
This is my first post here so, if there is a FAQ somewhere on this topic, please let me know.
Chuck, I agree that red dot finders still require some of the same contortions as straight through, the difference is it makes it so you are doing it for shorter periods and you also don't need to get your eye as close as you would for an eyepiece, so the contortions are reduced. They replace the need to sight along the finder and SCT's, for example, seem to short for accurate sighting down the tube.
For my 6"f5 all that is needed is an relatively inexpensive burgess reticle finder. These also seem to the rage among gun owners as well. Hi James, welcome to the list.
I'd agree with Erik that cost certainly figures into the lack of choice on commercial right-angle finders. However, neck-pains aside, there is another reason that they aren't more widespread in use.
Straight finders inherently have you looking in the direction the telescope is pointing. Referencing the telescope against the target area on the sky is an intuitive operation.
Think of trying to aim a rifle with a right-angle scope. Not as easy as it was when you were sighting down the barrel before you put your eye to the scope. You are already in the general neighborhood of the target.
I use both straight-through and right-angle finders, depending on the main scope I'm using at the moment. I generally prefer straight-through for the sake of expediency, even though one must do a bit of contortion at times. I find it very easy, keeping both eyes open, to superimpose the cross-hairs in the finder with the spot in the sky I think the target is at. After all these years, I'm almost always dead-on. You can't do that with a right-angle finder. I suppose what I do with both eyes open is a sort of mental reflex sight.
When using a right-angle finder, I still must sometimes sight along the main tube just to get the scope in the neighborhood of the target, before going to the finder eyepiece. A mirror-reversed image is much harder to mentally flip than a simple inverted image, at least for me. YMMV. A correct-image right-angle finder helps this problem.
Red-dot reflex sights still have you putting your head in the same positions as a straight through finder.
Probably the easiest finder I have ever used, regardless of scope or mount type, is a green laser mounted as a finder, in an adjustable bracket. I have a momentary switch on a long cord so you don't have to push on the laser button itself while using it, which may disturb the telescope's aim. It essentially gives you an infinitely long pointer. You just place the end of the pointer (laser beam) on the spot on the sky where your target is. No head contortions at all.
Hope this helps.
C.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:08 AM, James Harvey <wyominggeezer@gmail.com>wrote:
My questions are:
1. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why? 2. Could one use a "standard" finder scope and mount it at right anges with the use of a mirror? In other words, mount a mirror on the scope to direct the sky image away from the scope at a ninety degree angle and use a finder scope to look into that mirror. Could this not be a $10 solution to a $90 problem?
This is my first post here so, if there is a FAQ somewhere on this topic, please let me know.
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My favorite reflex sight is the old Apogee "Mars-Eye" finder, no longer made. The one that goes by "Mars Eye" these days isn't the same at all. One of the largest windows available, and the dot is switchable from red to green. Dave Bennet has one as well, IIRC. I also have the Burgess finder and it's probably my second-favorite, tied with my Telrad, though the Telrad is a behemoth by modern standards. Still works well though. At the bottom of my list is the Orion red-dot finder along with an infinite rabble of BB gun sights, all of which have a red dot that is far too bright to be useful for finding dim objects. On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:31 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Chuck, I agree that red dot finders still require some of the same contortions as straight through, the difference is it makes it so you are doing it for shorter periods and you also don't need to get your eye as close as you would for an eyepiece, so the contortions are reduced. They replace the need to sight along the finder and SCT's, for example, seem to short for accurate sighting down the tube.
For my 6"f5 all that is needed is an relatively inexpensive burgess reticle finder. These also seem to the rage among gun owners as well.
The Burgess is the best I have found, easiest to locate reticle and you can chose different reticle designs.
My favorite reflex sight is the old Apogee "Mars-Eye" finder, no longer
made. The one that goes by "Mars Eye" these days isn't the same at all. One of the largest windows available, and the dot is switchable from red to green. Dave Bennet has one as well, IIRC.
I also have the Burgess finder and it's probably my second-favorite, tied with my Telrad, though the Telrad is a behemoth by modern standards. Still works well though.
At the bottom of my list is the Orion red-dot finder along with an infinite rabble of BB gun sights, all of which have a red dot that is far too bright to be useful for finding dim objects.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:31 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Chuck, I agree that red dot finders still require some of the same contortions as straight through, the difference is it makes it so you are doing it for shorter periods and you also don't need to get your eye as close as you would for an eyepiece, so the contortions are reduced. They replace the need to sight along the finder and SCT's, for example, seem to short for accurate sighting down the tube.
For my 6"f5 all that is needed is an relatively inexpensive burgess reticle finder. These also seem to the rage among gun owners as well.
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Erik, I'll show you the Mars-eye next time I see you. I'm not impressed with the Burgess reticle assortment, most are too busy. But it is a very compact unit. I got mine before the astro-community discovered it. More rugged than the typical plastic red-dot finder, for sure. I nearly forgot the Rigel Systems Quickfinder, which I also use. It has the advantage of being tall by design so no riser is needed, it's oriented vertically. It's also much smaller than the Telrad. I bought the flashing circuit for my Telrad and it made it much easier to locate dim targets. Even on it's dimmest setting, sometimes the non-flashing Telrad is too bright. On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 11:48 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The Burgess is the best I have found, easiest to locate reticle and you can chose different reticle designs.
Gets back to what system you have, my 6" is mounted much higher than most to reduce contortions to begin with IE no need for a riser.
Erik, I'll show you the Mars-eye next time I see you.
I'm not impressed with the Burgess reticle assortment, most are too busy. But it is a very compact unit. I got mine before the astro-community discovered it. More rugged than the typical plastic red-dot finder, for sure.
I nearly forgot the Rigel Systems Quickfinder, which I also use. It has the advantage of being tall by design so no riser is needed, it's oriented vertically. It's also much smaller than the Telrad.
I bought the flashing circuit for my Telrad and it made it much easier to locate dim targets. Even on it's dimmest setting, sometimes the non-flashing Telrad is too bright.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 11:48 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The Burgess is the best I have found, easiest to locate reticle and you can chose different reticle designs.
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This also brings to light a common problem with Newtonians. Often the focuser/finder is setup for the non-dominant eye. You want your dominant eye closest to the tube when using a straight-through finder scope or reflex sight. Otherwise you must either use your non-dominant eye to sight with, or walk around to the other side of the tube. On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:17 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Gets back to what system you have, my 6" is mounted much higher than most to reduce contortions to begin with IE no need for a riser.
Turns out my dominant eye is my right eye, which also has a fair amount of astigmatism (which, rather surprisingly, proves beneficial to seeing/reading up close), so I've trained myself to use my left eye for observing. I've been doing it long enough now that I don't even think about it anymore. --- On Mon, 6/25/12, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Right Angle Finder Scopes To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, June 25, 2012, 11:04 AM This also brings to light a common problem with Newtonians. Often the focuser/finder is setup for the non-dominant eye. You want your dominant eye closest to the tube when using a straight-through finder scope or reflex sight. Otherwise you must either use your non-dominant eye to sight with, or walk around to the other side of the tube.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:17 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Gets back to what system you have, my 6" is mounted much higher than most to reduce contortions to begin with IE no need for a riser.
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Chuck, I agree that red dot finders still require some of the same contortions as straight through, the difference is it makes it so you are doing it for shorter periods and you also don't need to get your eye as close as you would for an eyepiece, so the contortions are reduced. They replace the need to sight along the finder and SCT's, for example, seem to short for accurate sighting down the tube.
For my 6"f5 all that is needed is an relatively inexpensive burgess reticle finder. These also seem to the rage among gun owners as well. Hi James, welcome to the list.
I'd agree with Erik that cost certainly figures into the lack of choice on commercial right-angle finders. However, neck-pains aside, there is another reason that they aren't more widespread in use.
Straight finders inherently have you looking in the direction the telescope is pointing. Referencing the telescope against the target area on the sky is an intuitive operation.
Think of trying to aim a rifle with a right-angle scope. Not as easy as it was when you were sighting down the barrel before you put your eye to the scope. You are already in the general neighborhood of the target.
I use both straight-through and right-angle finders, depending on the main scope I'm using at the moment. I generally prefer straight-through for the sake of expediency, even though one must do a bit of contortion at times. I find it very easy, keeping both eyes open, to superimpose the cross-hairs in the finder with the spot in the sky I think the target is at. After all these years, I'm almost always dead-on. You can't do that with a right-angle finder. I suppose what I do with both eyes open is a sort of mental reflex sight.
When using a right-angle finder, I still must sometimes sight along the main tube just to get the scope in the neighborhood of the target, before going to the finder eyepiece. A mirror-reversed image is much harder to mentally flip than a simple inverted image, at least for me. YMMV. A correct-image right-angle finder helps this problem.
Red-dot reflex sights still have you putting your head in the same positions as a straight through finder.
Probably the easiest finder I have ever used, regardless of scope or mount type, is a green laser mounted as a finder, in an adjustable bracket. I have a momentary switch on a long cord so you don't have to push on the laser button itself while using it, which may disturb the telescope's aim. It essentially gives you an infinitely long pointer. You just place the end of the pointer (laser beam) on the spot on the sky where your target is. No head contortions at all.
Hope this helps.
C.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:08 AM, James Harvey <wyominggeezer@gmail.com>wrote:
My questions are:
1. It seems that there are few right-angle finders on the market. Why? 2. Could one use a "standard" finder scope and mount it at right anges with the use of a mirror? In other words, mount a mirror on the scope to direct the sky image away from the scope at a ninety degree angle and use a finder scope to look into that mirror. Could this not be a $10 solution to a $90 problem?
This is my first post here so, if there is a FAQ somewhere on this topic, please let me know.
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participants (4)
-
Chuck Hards -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
James Harvey -
Richard Tenney