A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only. Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend. Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe? Dan -- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors. On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards. Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony? Dan On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^) Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards. Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony? Dan On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^) Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards. Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony? Dan On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
By far the best plan has been a SciFi staple for decades. Build a space station with an earth bound shuttle and then a space-only fleet of ships for further travel. Eliminating the need to handle Earth's gravity removes something like 85% of the structural strength requirements. If you fly only in space, the thing could be light and delicate, and wouldn't even have things like aerodynamic design limitations. I really think it's the key to making this whole space travel thing a deal we can hope to accomplish realisticly within our lifetimes. The move to commercial space flight is the first step. Competition will fuel innovation and expansion. Once we have a space station and shuttle set up on both ends, traveling to Mars will be a relatively common occurance. I'll never lived long enough to make it there, but maybe my daughter will. On Nov 28, 2012 8:53 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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Michael, Don't forget that in physics, gravity and acceleration are interchangeable. As long as the crafts motion through space/time is constant, structural integrity is not a significant factor but as soon as you start accelerating the spacecraft to velocities needed to make the trip, the structural integrity becomes very important. My big concern is one's ability to stand the prolonged exposure to radiation and providing the long-term breathable atmosphere. I don't see this happening in my or my grandchildren's lifetime. Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wells Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:12 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration By far the best plan has been a SciFi staple for decades. Build a space station with an earth bound shuttle and then a space-only fleet of ships for further travel. Eliminating the need to handle Earth's gravity removes something like 85% of the structural strength requirements. If you fly only in space, the thing could be light and delicate, and wouldn't even have things like aerodynamic design limitations. I really think it's the key to making this whole space travel thing a deal we can hope to accomplish realisticly within our lifetimes. The move to commercial space flight is the first step. Competition will fuel innovation and expansion. Once we have a space station and shuttle set up on both ends, traveling to Mars will be a relatively common occurance. I'll never lived long enough to make it there, but maybe my daughter will. On Nov 28, 2012 8:53 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astrono my
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Rodger, I see your point, I was simplifying the situation for the basic idea. The ships could still be far more light and delicate than needed for earth entry, but you're right, a major drive system would shred them if they were as delicate as the ISS. As for the timeframe, I like to try and be a little optimistic, but at heart, I think you're right. Like I said, with space exploration being done as a commercial venture, things will progress far more quickly. Putting things in the hands of the free market isn't always good, but it definitely speeds things up. If space exploration had been done with anxious stockholders watching, we'd have at least sent a manned mission to Mars by now. Let's just hope that we can trust corporations to do it well. The cynic I me sees them cutting corners wherever they can. On Nov 29, 2012 6:37 AM, "Rodger C. Fry" <rcfry@comcast.net> wrote:
Michael,
Don't forget that in physics, gravity and acceleration are interchangeable. As long as the crafts motion through space/time is constant, structural integrity is not a significant factor but as soon as you start accelerating the spacecraft to velocities needed to make the trip, the structural integrity becomes very important.
My big concern is one's ability to stand the prolonged exposure to radiation and providing the long-term breathable atmosphere.
I don't see this happening in my or my grandchildren's lifetime.
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wells Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:12 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
By far the best plan has been a SciFi staple for decades. Build a space station with an earth bound shuttle and then a space-only fleet of ships for further travel. Eliminating the need to handle Earth's gravity removes something like 85% of the structural strength requirements. If you fly only in space, the thing could be light and delicate, and wouldn't even have things like aerodynamic design limitations.
I really think it's the key to making this whole space travel thing a deal we can hope to accomplish realisticly within our lifetimes. The move to commercial space flight is the first step. Competition will fuel innovation and expansion. Once we have a space station and shuttle set up on both ends, traveling to Mars will be a relatively common occurance. I'll never lived long enough to make it there, but maybe my daughter will. On Nov 28, 2012 8:53 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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The Space Program would have never have happened with private enterprise.
Rodger,
I see your point, I was simplifying the situation for the basic idea. The ships could still be far more light and delicate than needed for earth entry, but you're right, a major drive system would shred them if they were as delicate as the ISS.
As for the timeframe, I like to try and be a little optimistic, but at heart, I think you're right. Like I said, with space exploration being done as a commercial venture, things will progress far more quickly. Putting things in the hands of the free market isn't always good, but it definitely speeds things up. If space exploration had been done with anxious stockholders watching, we'd have at least sent a manned mission to Mars by now.
Let's just hope that we can trust corporations to do it well. The cynic I me sees them cutting corners wherever they can. On Nov 29, 2012 6:37 AM, "Rodger C. Fry" <rcfry@comcast.net> wrote:
Michael,
Don't forget that in physics, gravity and acceleration are interchangeable. As long as the crafts motion through space/time is constant, structural integrity is not a significant factor but as soon as you start accelerating the spacecraft to velocities needed to make the trip, the structural integrity becomes very important.
My big concern is one's ability to stand the prolonged exposure to radiation and providing the long-term breathable atmosphere.
I don't see this happening in my or my grandchildren's lifetime.
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wells Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:12 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
By far the best plan has been a SciFi staple for decades. Build a space station with an earth bound shuttle and then a space-only fleet of ships for further travel. Eliminating the need to handle Earth's gravity removes something like 85% of the structural strength requirements. If you fly only in space, the thing could be light and delicate, and wouldn't even have things like aerodynamic design limitations.
I really think it's the key to making this whole space travel thing a deal we can hope to accomplish realisticly within our lifetimes. The move to commercial space flight is the first step. Competition will fuel innovation and expansion. Once we have a space station and shuttle set up on both ends, traveling to Mars will be a relatively common occurance. I'll never lived long enough to make it there, but maybe my daughter will. On Nov 28, 2012 8:53 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion > units to the International Space Station and taking it out of > Earth orbit, > into Mars orbit, and back again? > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astrono > my > > Send messages to the list to > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any > astronomy club.. > > To unsubscribe go to: > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astrono > my Then enter your email address in the space provided and click > on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronom y
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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Can anyone name an aerospace company that is not dependent on government funding? ATK for example would have never existed without it.
Rodger,
I see your point, I was simplifying the situation for the basic idea. The ships could still be far more light and delicate than needed for earth entry, but you're right, a major drive system would shred them if they were as delicate as the ISS.
As for the timeframe, I like to try and be a little optimistic, but at heart, I think you're right. Like I said, with space exploration being done as a commercial venture, things will progress far more quickly. Putting things in the hands of the free market isn't always good, but it definitely speeds things up. If space exploration had been done with anxious stockholders watching, we'd have at least sent a manned mission to Mars by now.
Let's just hope that we can trust corporations to do it well. The cynic I me sees them cutting corners wherever they can. On Nov 29, 2012 6:37 AM, "Rodger C. Fry" <rcfry@comcast.net> wrote:
Michael,
Don't forget that in physics, gravity and acceleration are interchangeable. As long as the crafts motion through space/time is constant, structural integrity is not a significant factor but as soon as you start accelerating the spacecraft to velocities needed to make the trip, the structural integrity becomes very important.
My big concern is one's ability to stand the prolonged exposure to radiation and providing the long-term breathable atmosphere.
I don't see this happening in my or my grandchildren's lifetime.
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+rcfry=comcast.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wells Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:12 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
By far the best plan has been a SciFi staple for decades. Build a space station with an earth bound shuttle and then a space-only fleet of ships for further travel. Eliminating the need to handle Earth's gravity removes something like 85% of the structural strength requirements. If you fly only in space, the thing could be light and delicate, and wouldn't even have things like aerodynamic design limitations.
I really think it's the key to making this whole space travel thing a deal we can hope to accomplish realisticly within our lifetimes. The move to commercial space flight is the first step. Competition will fuel innovation and expansion. Once we have a space station and shuttle set up on both ends, traveling to Mars will be a relatively common occurance. I'll never lived long enough to make it there, but maybe my daughter will. On Nov 28, 2012 8:53 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion > units to the International Space Station and taking it out of > Earth orbit, > into Mars orbit, and back again? > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astrono > my > > Send messages to the list to > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any > astronomy club.. > > To unsubscribe go to: > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astrono > my Then enter your email address in the space provided and click > on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronom y
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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That was the Constellation project, but it depended on too much technology that has yet to leave the drawing board. We still have no solution to providing enough food and water for a human being even the one way trip to Mars.
Hi Dan, I have heard of that -- it's a fascinating idea. On the question
of structural weakness: I wonder if special struts could be built onto the ISS to make it possible. Or if some ISS-like orbiter could be built from scratch with the idea of shuttling between Earth and Mars. Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Yea! It sounds like and interesting deal. All sales are final and no returns;^)
Rodger C. Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
And based on the problems they have had with it, I'm not sure the toilet is up to generational ship standards.
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Several ion engines, at strategic points. A single thruster, even at very low thrust, would be structurally unsound over long periods of time. On Nov 28, 2012 6:44 PM, "Daniel Holmes" <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
That was my first thought. So you probably could strap an ion engine or two to it, but I'm not sure they have enough thrust to break earth orbit. But it'd be cool to rename it the ISS-TIE. Sienar Fleet Systems wasn't founded here, but we could pretend.
Have you heard of the 100 year starship project, Joe?
Dan
-- Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon any mispelings or errors.
On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
VERY low thrust only. It would take years to decades. The ISS isn't designed for interplanetary thrusting, from a structural standpoint. Station-keeping and minor tweaks to avoid collisions only.
Good question though. On Nov 28, 2012 6:11 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching
propulsion
units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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On 28 Nov 2012, at 19:15, Daniel Holmes wrote:
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
That's come up in a few of my talks. US media made a pretty big deal about "suicide" missions when the idea first surfaced yet I don't think anyone at my talks have expressed similar feelings. Most express support. I really don't see it being that big a deal. After all, how many who sailed to the so-called New World as settlers ever expected to return home? Same for many who journeyed to the American West. I don't see myself making a one-way space trip but I'm confident more than enough capable and qualified volunteers could be found for a Mars colony. patrick
Patrick, if this was on Facebook, I would hit the "like" button. 73 On 11/28/2012 8:32 PM, Wiggins Patrick wrote:
On 28 Nov 2012, at 19:15, Daniel Holmes wrote:
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan That's come up in a few of my talks. US media made a pretty big deal about "suicide" missions when the idea first surfaced yet I don't think anyone at my talks have expressed similar feelings. Most express support.
I really don't see it being that big a deal. After all, how many who sailed to the so-called New World as settlers ever expected to return home? Same for many who journeyed to the American West.
I don't see myself making a one-way space trip but I'm confident more than enough capable and qualified volunteers could be found for a Mars colony.
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In both cases there was some chance of survival, there is currently no chance of survival on a mission to Mars.
On 28 Nov 2012, at 19:15, Daniel Holmes wrote:
Have all of you been paying attention to Elon Musk's idea of a one-way trip to found a Mars colony?
Dan
That's come up in a few of my talks. US media made a pretty big deal about "suicide" missions when the idea first surfaced yet I don't think anyone at my talks have expressed similar feelings. Most express support.
I really don't see it being that big a deal. After all, how many who sailed to the so-called New World as settlers ever expected to return home? Same for many who journeyed to the American West.
I don't see myself making a one-way space trip but I'm confident more than enough capable and qualified volunteers could be found for a Mars colony.
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe ________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
There are also a lot of resources that can be manufactured or mined from the moon. Waste can be launched into the sun, and with no atmosphere or ecosystem, pollution would be much easier to manage. We don't want to turn the moon into a landfill, but a lot of the issues that we face here with manufacturing, mining and power generation wouldn't be as much of a factor there. Most of what we need could eventually come from the moon and the costs would be minimal as a result. On Nov 28, 2012 10:01 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe
________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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Joe, Are you postulating the creation of a lot of "Brown Dwarfs!" ;^) Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:00 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe ________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Joe, One other consideration is that just expelling waste into open space will make some poor space sojourner to have a "Close Encounter of a Turd Kind!" Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:00 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe ________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Is that a "Toilet Torpedo" joke? ________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Joe, One other consideration is that just expelling waste into open space will make some poor space sojourner to have a "Close Encounter of a Turd Kind!" Rodger C. Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:00 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe ________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
The Space Station is barely keeping supplied to maintain its own astronauts. NASA has said all along that it is not possible to colonize the moon or go to Mars, without finding a source of drinking water on Mars and the Moon.
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for
a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe
________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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Remember, they have ice on the moon. All they need is enough to get something running for a small crew. We don't need Luna City yet, just started enough to set up a supply base. It's by far the least economical item to bring from the earth. We need a lot, it's heavy, and it doesn't weigh any less when frozen, and gaseous form requires a lot of heat to maintain, so we have to live on what the moon provides until we can figure out how to manufacture it. The good news is that if we use fuel c lls for power up there, water is a by-product. Either way, I think if we really tried, we could overcome this. It's part of why it's good that private industry is stepping in, they don't let things like this stop them, no political parties and legislation to wade through. It becomes about finding a way to be profitable. On Nov 29, 2012 9:39 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The Space Station is barely keeping supplied to maintain its own astronauts. NASA has said all along that it is not possible to colonize the moon or go to Mars, without finding a source of drinking water on Mars and the Moon.
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for
a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe
________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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NASA did a presentation on water sources on the Moon, it requires a mining operation with the machines needed that are only on the drawing board. They certainly should continue research, but we should have something that is workable before spending billions on Moon Bases and manned Mars Mission, NASA has plenty of other science they could do. We are not talking about ending NASA, the science and technology needs to catch up with our imagination. Bush's Moon Base and Mars Mission was political pork, plain and simple.
Sorry, you just don't get to see everything you want, it has to be feasible. How is private industry stepping up? Except in competing for government contracts. It may have profitable applications in the future, but right now government is the only one doing the R&D. Remember, they have ice on the moon. All they need is enough to get
something running for a small crew. We don't need Luna City yet, just started enough to set up a supply base. It's by far the least economical item to bring from the earth. We need a lot, it's heavy, and it doesn't weigh any less when frozen, and gaseous form requires a lot of heat to maintain, so we have to live on what the moon provides until we can figure out how to manufacture it. The good news is that if we use fuel c lls for power up there, water is a by-product.
Either way, I think if we really tried, we could overcome this. It's part of why it's good that private industry is stepping in, they don't let things like this stop them, no political parties and legislation to wade through. It becomes about finding a way to be profitable. On Nov 29, 2012 9:39 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The Space Station is barely keeping supplied to maintain its own astronauts. NASA has said all along that it is not possible to colonize the moon or go to Mars, without finding a source of drinking water on Mars and the Moon.
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for
a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe
________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
NASA did a presentation on water sources on the Moon, it requires a mining operation with the machines needed that are only on the drawing board. They certainly should continue research, but we should have something that is workable before spending billions on Moon Bases and manned Mars Mission, NASA has plenty of other science they could do. We are not talking about ending NASA, the science and technology needs to catch up with our imagination. Bush's Moon Base and Mars Mission was political pork, plain and simple.
Sorry, you just don't get to see everything you want, it has to be feasible. How is private industry stepping up? Except in competing for government contracts. It may have profitable applications in the future, but right now government is the only one doing the R&D. Remember, they have ice on the moon. All they need is enough to get
something running for a small crew. We don't need Luna City yet, just started enough to set up a supply base. It's by far the least economical item to bring from the earth. We need a lot, it's heavy, and it doesn't weigh any less when frozen, and gaseous form requires a lot of heat to maintain, so we have to live on what the moon provides until we can figure out how to manufacture it. The good news is that if we use fuel c lls for power up there, water is a by-product.
Either way, I think if we really tried, we could overcome this. It's part of why it's good that private industry is stepping in, they don't let things like this stop them, no political parties and legislation to wade through. It becomes about finding a way to be profitable. On Nov 29, 2012 9:39 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The Space Station is barely keeping supplied to maintain its own astronauts. NASA has said all along that it is not possible to colonize the moon or go to Mars, without finding a source of drinking water on Mars and the Moon.
A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for
a small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe
________________________________ From: william baker <baker464b@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to mention biological waste during the trip.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again?
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Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
Chuck, The military labs I know about employ contractors to do the real R&D. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but by far the bulk of the new technology developed by the government is done through contracts with private enterprise. ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Without the funding they would do no R&D, the government is their customer. I am speaking about the aerospace industry specifically. The private sector you speak of depends on government dollars, they are indirectly employed by the government.
Chuck,
The military labs I know about employ contractors to do the real R&D. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but by far the bulk of the new technology developed by the government is done through contracts with private enterprise.
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
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Outline of federal funding for aerospace R&D, 75 billion in 2012.
http://www.rdmag.com/articles/2011/12/2012-global-r-d-funding-forecast-industrial-r-daero-defense Chuck,
The military labs I know about employ contractors to do the real R&D. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but by far the bulk of the new technology developed by the government is done through contracts with private enterprise.
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
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"It is important to consider that corporate R&D decisions and investments in this sector are often driven by the directives and future mission requirements tied to the federal government funding that these companies receive for both research services and procurement. Thus, corporate aerospace, defense, and national security R&D is more strongly tied to federal budget priorities than any other sector."
Try this link, that one was incomplete. http://www.rdmag.com/articles/2011/12/2012-global-r-d-funding-forecast-industrial-r-daero-defense Outline of federal funding for aerospace R&D, 75 billion in 2012.
http://www.rdmag.com/articles/2011/12/2012-global-r-d-funding-forecast-industrial-r-daero-defense
Chuck,
The military labs I know about employ contractors to do the real R&D. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but by far the bulk of the new technology developed by the government is done through contracts with private enterprise.
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
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Interesting information. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
"It is important to consider that corporate R&D decisions and investments in this sector are often driven by the directives and future mission requirements tied to the federal government funding that these companies receive for both research services and procurement. Thus, corporate aerospace, defense, and national security R&D is more strongly tied to federal budget priorities than any other sector."
Try this link, that one was incomplete. http://www.rdmag.com/articles/2011/12/2012-global-r-d-funding-forecast-industrial-r-d—aero-defense Outline of federal funding for aerospace R&D, 75 billion in 2012.
http://www.rdmag.com/articles/2011/12/2012-global-r-d-funding-forecast-industrial-r-d—aero-defense
Chuck,
The military labs I know about employ contractors to do the real R&D. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but by far the bulk of the new technology developed by the government is done through contracts with private enterprise.
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
Not strictly true, Brent, there are military labs that are engaged in R&D. To be fair, they exist because of preliminary work done by private industry. But the military does pick up where the grants fall-off, in many cases.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
The government does not do R&D. The government funds SOME R&D. The actual work is done by private industry. I've been on both sides.
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On 29 Nov 2012, at 14:20, Michael Wells wrote:
Either way, I think if we really tried, we could overcome this. It's part of why it's good that private industry is stepping in, they don't let things like this stop them, no political parties and legislation to wade through. It becomes about finding a way to be profitable.
Here's something on topic that just showed up in one of the aviation email newsletters I subscribe to. patrick Space industry gears up crew training http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2012/121127space-industry-gears-up-cre...
anyone notice the billion dollar NASA Grant?
On 29 Nov 2012, at 14:20, Michael Wells wrote:
Either way, I think if we really tried, we could overcome this. It's part of why it's good that private industry is stepping in, they don't let things like this stop them, no political parties and legislation to wade through. It becomes about finding a way to be profitable.
Here's something on topic that just showed up in one of the aviation email newsletters I subscribe to.
patrick
Space industry gears up crew training http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2012/121127space-industry-gears-up-cre... _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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What a COOL thing to think about! The ISS would need to be reinforced pretty substantially to withstand the accelerations needed to get it to Mars in a reasonable amount of time - say something on the order of 18 months. The ISS currently masses 420,000 kg. Maybe if you're lucky you could get the whole thing structurally ready to go to Mars at a mass of 500,000 kg. Then there's the weight of the food, water and air for the crew for what would have to be about a three year mission. Then there's the weight of the extra radiation shielding you'll need since you'll be in interplanetary space, beyond the protective bubble of earth's magnetosphere. Then there is the mass of the fuel and rockets to power the ISS onto a trans-Martian trajectory. Then there's the mass of fuel needed to slow it down so it can be captured by Mars' gravity. Then there's the mass of fuel needed to leave Mars and return to Earth. Although it seems counterintuitive, going from an outer planet to an inner planet actually requires _more_ fuel than the original out-bound trip. If you look at the fuel requirements to get the Mars Science Laboratory headed to Mars, excluding launch weight, one-way, to get a grasp on the payload mass - to - initial vehicle mass ratio as a guide, then you're still looking at a fuel load several times the mass of what you're trying to get to Mars and back. A few hundred metric tons of fuel is probably a very conservative estimate for how much fuel you'd need to carry. With bracing, shielding, extra rockets, fuel and life-support consumables for three years, you've got to be looking at a total mass of a few thousand metric tons. In other words - don't hold your breath waiting for NASA to send the ISS to Mars. But it _is_ a cool idea. Sort of a geekier version of "Space: 1999." Seth -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:10 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
participants (11)
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Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
Daniel Holmes -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Joe Bauman -
Larry Holmes -
Michael Wells -
Rodger C. Fry -
Seth Jarvis -
Wiggins Patrick -
william baker