Retail astronomy in Utah
I wanted to probe the collective memory of this group to find out about retail astronomy in Utah. I know the Clark Planetarium sells a few telescopes in its store. I know Inkley's on 21st S used to have a small telescope selection and a cabinet of cool accessories and eyepieces. Have there been any other examples of telescopes for sale in Utah? I'm not talking about classified ads or online sales, but the real-life, touch-and-see-before-you-buy kind. I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity. We have darker skies (or easier access to them) than most of the places where those retail stores are located. We have, it seems, a large community of science-loving, earth-friendly (and sky friendly) people who might patronize such an establishment. And considering the cost of many good telescopes and accessories it seems that some of us might be more inclined to buy if we could see it and touch it and heft it and try it out before we commit. No wonder the lesser-quality telescopes on display at big box stores and toy stores sell - you can put a bow on them! Just wondering. Dion “I thought the telescope was broken, but upon further looking into it, I found out it was not.”
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Dion Davidson <diondavidson@yahoo.com>wrote:
I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity.
Joe hit the nail on the head, Dion. There aren't enough walk-in customers in this area to make a brick-and-mortar store profitable. Camera Den used to sell higher-quality scopes and equipment, before they switched to bicycles, then folded completely if memory serves. Hammond Toys and Hobbies used to be a Celestron dealer and still has some telescopes set-up in their stores, but most are old and missing parts. The kids that typically work the registers there can't answer any questions and only make minimum wage. I think since Lee Hammond retired/passed-on, the telescope and binocular side of the business has died out as well. I didn't know any other family members besides Lee and am not sure who even owns and runs the business anymore. OPT, Scope City, Adorama, etc., have huge metropolitan customer bases that dwarf the entire population of several western states, but even so, most of their business today is mail-order. A live, walk-in storefront has to be self-supporting in order for it to be a successful side of a business. Payroll is typically the highest monthly expense for businesses, and knowledeable salespeople with a background in astronomy and optics can't be had for minimum wage and no benefits. Online retail is about the best business model for astro vendors these days, and real storefronts will only be a side of such businesses, especially in areas with little walk-in traffic.
Inkley’s used to be nice. That was because Bill Cowles was there. It was nice to have someone around that knew what they were talking about. I asked Bill a lot of questions when I was starting out. A knowledgeable resource is invaluable when you’re a newbie/bozo like me. Dave On Jul 6, 2013, at 9:53 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Dion Davidson <diondavidson@yahoo.com>wrote:
I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity.
Joe hit the nail on the head, Dion. There aren't enough walk-in customers in this area to make a brick-and-mortar store profitable.
Camera Den used to sell higher-quality scopes and equipment, before they switched to bicycles, then folded completely if memory serves. Hammond Toys and Hobbies used to be a Celestron dealer and still has some telescopes set-up in their stores, but most are old and missing parts. The kids that typically work the registers there can't answer any questions and only make minimum wage. I think since Lee Hammond retired/passed-on, the telescope and binocular side of the business has died out as well. I didn't know any other family members besides Lee and am not sure who even owns and runs the business anymore.
OPT, Scope City, Adorama, etc., have huge metropolitan customer bases that dwarf the entire population of several western states, but even so, most of their business today is mail-order. A live, walk-in storefront has to be self-supporting in order for it to be a successful side of a business. Payroll is typically the highest monthly expense for businesses, and knowledeable salespeople with a background in astronomy and optics can't be had for minimum wage and no benefits.
Online retail is about the best business model for astro vendors these days, and real storefronts will only be a side of such businesses, especially in areas with little walk-in traffic. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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I can offer a little perspective on this. Margins on telescopes are very small because most manufacturers are trying to simultaneously support a dealer network, sell from their own websites and sell through other online retailers such as Amazon. It's not just telescopes, _all_ consumer products retailers with brick & mortar stores are finding that if you don't also aggressively offer an online sales system your days are numbered. We charge sales tax, but Amazon doesn't. When you're buying something for less than $100 that's not such a big deal, but when you're spending well into four digits _and_ online stores increasingly offer free or dirt-cheap shipping, _and_ they're discounting below MSRP, customers will buy online in order to save a couple of hundred bucks. Price is everything these days. I've lost count of the people who've told me, "Yeah that's a cool telescope but Amazon sells it for $50 less and they don't charge sales tax and with Amazon Prime I get free shipping, so thanks for showing it to me, but I'm going to buy it online." Seriously, they were comparison shopping our floor models and then using their smartphones to order from Amazon while standing right there. They're proud of it. And can I really blame them? By buying that 8" go-to SC online they've saved themselves more than $150. Plus they don't have to figure out how to lug the thing home - it's being delivered to them. People who are serious about telescopes are generally tech-savvy enough to shop online, they know what they want, so they search online for the best price. I'd adore being a full-service stocking retailer of high quality telescopes and accessories, but today's consumer purchasing behavior in a market of our size just doesn't support that business model. If you figure out how to make that work here, please let me know and I'll apply for a job with you. Seth On Jul 6, 2013, at 9:54 AM, "Chuck Hards" <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Dion Davidson <diondavidson@yahoo.com>wrote:
I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity. Joe hit the nail on the head, Dion. There aren't enough walk-in customers in this area to make a brick-and-mortar store profitable.
Camera Den used to sell higher-quality scopes and equipment, before they switched to bicycles, then folded completely if memory serves. Hammond Toys and Hobbies used to be a Celestron dealer and still has some telescopes set-up in their stores, but most are old and missing parts. The kids that typically work the registers there can't answer any questions and only make minimum wage. I think since Lee Hammond retired/passed-on, the telescope and binocular side of the business has died out as well. I didn't know any other family members besides Lee and am not sure who even owns and runs the business anymore.
OPT, Scope City, Adorama, etc., have huge metropolitan customer bases that dwarf the entire population of several western states, but even so, most of their business today is mail-order. A live, walk-in storefront has to be self-supporting in order for it to be a successful side of a business. Payroll is typically the highest monthly expense for businesses, and knowledeable salespeople with a background in astronomy and optics can't be had for minimum wage and no benefits.
Online retail is about the best business model for astro vendors these days, and real storefronts will only be a side of such businesses, especially in areas with little walk-in traffic. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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I wanted to say thanks to the group for such thorough and thought-provoking responses. In my best beer commercial imitation: "I love you guys" I recently turned 40 and I hear "do what you love", so I admit I have been thinking about how to earn a living in some astronomy-related field. Joe - I'm sure you're right about not enough walk-in customers. I was also thinking about other revenue sources besides telescope sales, such as services, education, private star parties, and probably some other stuff I haven't thought of. Chuck - I hear you about the storefront. I was thinking I could skip the minimum wage employees and run the place myself. But then you said "knowledgeable salespeople with a background in astronomy and optics" and I realized that's not me! Dave - Bill helped me a ton when he was at Inkleys. I loved chatting with him about scope and accessories, and digging through shelves and boxes looking for obscure parts. Seth - thanks for the insight. I'm glad Clark still has a section for telescopes and accessories. I admit that I do the same thing - shop in person and buy online - especially when the prices go up. Mat - I'm glad to know your scopes are for sale. I can say from personal experience they are amazing! Wayne - interesting news about Scope City. I went to the Costa Mesa store a few weeks ago and was surprised to find it was gone! I had a really good experience with the guy there named Mike who helped me with my 10"SCT when I first bought it. He collimated it for free, gave me the tools he used for free, gave me a Meade camera piggy-back bracket for free, and sold me a very nice 2" diagonal and 36mm eyepiece that I love. At least I can scratch "open ScopeCity franchise" off my list! Thanks again for the discussion. Dion ________________________________ From: Seth Jarvis <SJarvis@slco.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Retail astronomy in Utah I can offer a little perspective on this. Margins on telescopes are very small because most manufacturers are trying to simultaneously support a dealer network, sell from their own websites and sell through other online retailers such as Amazon. It's not just telescopes, _all_ consumer products retailers with brick & mortar stores are finding that if you don't also aggressively offer an online sales system your days are numbered. We charge sales tax, but Amazon doesn't. When you're buying something for less than $100 that's not such a big deal, but when you're spending well into four digits _and_ online stores increasingly offer free or dirt-cheap shipping, _and_ they're discounting below MSRP, customers will buy online in order to save a couple of hundred bucks. Price is everything these days. I've lost count of the people who've told me, "Yeah that's a cool telescope but Amazon sells it for $50 less and they don't charge sales tax and with Amazon Prime I get free shipping, so thanks for showing it to me, but I'm going to buy it online." Seriously, they were comparison shopping our floor models and then using their smartphones to order from Amazon while standing right there. They're proud of it. And can I really blame them? By buying that 8" go-to SC online they've saved themselves more than $150. Plus they don't have to figure out how to lug the thing home - it's being delivered to them. People who are serious about telescopes are generally tech-savvy enough to shop online, they know what they want, so they search online for the best price. I'd adore being a full-service stocking retailer of high quality telescopes and accessories, but today's consumer purchasing behavior in a market of our size just doesn't support that business model. If you figure out how to make that work here, please let me know and I'll apply for a job with you. Seth
Just a quick FYI: Scope City is out of business! -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 9:53 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Retail astronomy in Utah On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Dion Davidson <diondavidson@yahoo.com>wrote:
I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity.
Joe hit the nail on the head, Dion. There aren't enough walk-in customers in this area to make a brick-and-mortar store profitable. Camera Den used to sell higher-quality scopes and equipment, before they switched to bicycles, then folded completely if memory serves. Hammond Toys and Hobbies used to be a Celestron dealer and still has some telescopes set-up in their stores, but most are old and missing parts. The kids that typically work the registers there can't answer any questions and only make minimum wage. I think since Lee Hammond retired/passed-on, the telescope and binocular side of the business has died out as well. I didn't know any other family members besides Lee and am not sure who even owns and runs the business anymore. OPT, Scope City, Adorama, etc., have huge metropolitan customer bases that dwarf the entire population of several western states, but even so, most of their business today is mail-order. A live, walk-in storefront has to be self-supporting in order for it to be a successful side of a business. Payroll is typically the highest monthly expense for businesses, and knowledeable salespeople with a background in astronomy and optics can't be had for minimum wage and no benefits. Online retail is about the best business model for astro vendors these days, and real storefronts will only be a side of such businesses, especially in areas with little walk-in traffic. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
I know their web site is still up, and they will take orders. But they will not ship product! Check with the better business bureau of California. Try to call them. I have been trying for over a year to contact them to ship me the final telescope of the ten that were ordered. Most if not all of their brick and mortar stores are closed. Do a web search for Scope City. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 11:31 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Retail astronomy in Utah Where did you hear that, Wayne? Their website is still up. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Wayne Sumner <WSUMNER@dsdmail.net> wrote:
Just a quick FYI: Scope City is out of business!
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Wow, it looks like you are correct, and this actually happened nearly a year ago! On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Wayne Sumner <WSUMNER@dsdmail.net> wrote:
I know their web site is still up, and they will take orders. But they will not ship product! Check with the better business bureau of California. Try to call them. I have been trying for over a year to contact them to ship me the final telescope of the ten that were ordered. Most if not all of their brick and mortar stores are closed. Do a web search for Scope City.
Hi Dion; As others have posted, there is not a major astro store here locally. But in a blatant plug for myself, any of my telescopes are for sale. Whenever anyone observes with me, they are welcome to "test" my scopes out. As I normally observe from dark skies, this is a very good test. So if you want to "touch it, and heft it and try it out", as you say below, come and try one of my scopes! My currently available telescopes are: 16" f5.5 Kriege style truss-tube dob, 8" f 5.6 dob, and 4" f3.9 dob. Soon to be completed is a 6" f8 scope. These are all hand made and are of high optical quality. Clear skies, Mat -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dion Davidson Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 11:14 AM To: Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Retail astronomy in Utah I wanted to probe the collective memory of this group to find out about retail astronomy in Utah. I know the Clark Planetarium sells a few telescopes in its store. I know Inkley's on 21st S used to have a small telescope selection and a cabinet of cool accessories and eyepieces. Have there been any other examples of telescopes for sale in Utah? I'm not talking about classified ads or online sales, but the real-life, touch-and-see-before-you-buy kind. I guess I'm wondering why there isn't a telescope store here, like OPT or ScopeCity. We have darker skies (or easier access to them) than most of the places where those retail stores are located. We have, it seems, a large community of science-loving, earth-friendly (and sky friendly) people who might patronize such an establishment. And considering the cost of many good telescopes and accessories it seems that some of us might be more inclined to buy if we could see it and touch it and heft it and try it out before we commit. No wonder the lesser-quality telescopes on display at big box stores and toy stores sell - you can put a bow on them! Just wondering. Dion "I thought the telescope was broken, but upon further looking into it, I found out it was not." _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". This message and any attachments are solely for the use of intended recipients. The information contained herein may include trade secrets, protected health or personal information, privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you received this email in error, and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email and any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. Thank you for your cooperation
participants (6)
-
Chuck Hards -
Dave Gary -
Dion Davidson -
Hutchings, Mat -
Seth Jarvis -
Wayne Sumner