Wow, 2 digests in one day! Fighting light pollution in Tooele is probably a lost-cause; the area is growing very quickly and whomever tilts at that windmill will certainly be in for a fight. The area needs ecconomic development and an increase in their tax base, in order to provide services for the increasing poplulaion. I know many residents, and all, (except for one or three in Stansbury ;), are in favor of ANY and EVERY business that wants to locate there. Several people whom I work with here in Davis county bought houses in Tooele even though they have incredibly long commutes that can be dangerous at certain times of the year (I just can't understand the "bedroom community commuter" mentality. In my book you live close to where you work, it just makes too much sense ecconomically and environmentally). The place will not get any dimmer at night any time soon, even massive activism will at best only slow the brightening. This is going to give the "Dark-sky site" faction a boost in SLAS and perhaps it's time to listen to them. It would be nice to be able to find a place with decent skies that will stay that way for a few decades at least, after our own time with the facility is over... Now SPOC has served a wonderful purpose and will continue to do so for years to come, but the writing is on the wall. In five, ten, fifteen years, it will be as if it were located in Murray and then it's planets and the moon only, and you don't need huge scopes for that. Maybe it's time to plan that next-generation observatory, and look away from the population centers...perhaps be JUST A LITTLE selfish with our hobby? Is there room for a dark-sky observatory for members for whom public outreach is only a secondary (or, ahem, "tertiary") consideration? My 6 cents. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
Just throwing chum in the water..., but it sure could be nice... And we could communicate with SPOC.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1607&item=4337701828& rd=1 Jo At 12:14 PM 12/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Wow, 2 digests in one day!
Fighting light pollution in Tooele is probably a lost-cause; the area is growing very quickly and whomever tilts at that windmill will certainly be in for a fight. The area needs ecconomic development and an increase in their tax base, in order to provide services for the increasing poplulaion. I know many residents, and all, (except for one or three in Stansbury ;), are in favor of ANY and EVERY business that wants to locate there.
Several people whom I work with here in Davis county bought houses in Tooele even though they have incredibly long commutes that can be dangerous at certain times of the year (I just can't understand the "bedroom community commuter" mentality. In my book you live close to where you work, it just makes too much sense ecconomically and environmentally). The place will not get any dimmer at night any time soon, even massive activism will at best only slow the brightening.
This is going to give the "Dark-sky site" faction a boost in SLAS and perhaps it's time to listen to them. It would be nice to be able to find a place with decent skies that will stay that way for a few decades at least, after our own time with the facility is over...
Now SPOC has served a wonderful purpose and will continue to do so for years to come, but the writing is on the wall. In five, ten, fifteen years, it will be as if it were located in Murray and then it's planets and the moon only, and you don't need huge scopes for that.
Maybe it's time to plan that next-generation observatory, and look away from the population centers...perhaps be JUST A LITTLE selfish with our hobby? Is there room for a dark-sky observatory for members for whom public outreach is only a secondary (or, ahem, "tertiary") consideration?
My 6 cents.
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Jim Gibson wrote:
Wall*Mart is planning a big warehouse north west of Grantsville with an estimated 600 truchks coming and going per day at startup.
It's past the planning stage. They've been working on it all year. I understand they plan on opening in the spring. Patrick
Regarding Chuck's comments:
Fighting light pollution in Tooele is probably a lost-cause; the area is growing very quickly and whomever tilts at that windmill will certainly be in for a fight.
Even though I may be willing to give some time to an effort, I'm inclined to believe you're correct. Salt Lake is a young area and has not yet been willing to embrace the consequences of unchecked population growth, sprawl and overdevelopment. Unfortunately this is a trait shared by many young cities. I'm afraid it will easily take another generation before people realize how much they're giving up and how cheaply they've given away a birthright. Right now, they're bedazzled by the shining lights of 'progress'.
Now SPOC has served a wonderful purpose and will continue to do so for years to come, but the writing is on the wall. In five, ten, fifteen years, it will be as if it were located in Murray and then it's planets and the moon only, and you don't need huge scopes for that.
I've only been here for a little over a year, but I agree that the handwriting is on the wall for SPOC. This is in spite of the strong support from people in Stansbury. I find that highway lights are quite distracting if I'm outside of the building. Inside, there's still an awful lot of ambient light from cars and nearby development. That's a pity, since there are some nice instruments in the observatory. But frankly, I get better performance out of my little dob somewhere else. The other night when we unveiled the new mirror, I found myself wondering how long that larger mirror might provide any advantage at SPOC. So even though I probably am more interested in outreach than Chuck is, I find that any moderate scope is sufficient for that, as long as it's near some people. But I also like to get away from the first-timers so I can see stuff for myself. I wonder what it would take to buy or lease a few acres way out in the boonies... Michael
I know you all hoped I was kidding with the link I posted, but... it has concrete pads, secure storage, and power, plus a working outhouse. Anyone know anything about filing a new "Use Application" with the BLM? 25 miles SW of Delta, and we could branch out into ham radio :) It is on Ebay, and it is real. If you cannot follow the link, go to Ebay and punch in item number 4337701828. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1607&item=4337701828 additional pictures and a map are at: http://home.rmci.net/ranse/ Jo
Hi Jo, There's a precedent. This facility in Western North Carolina (http://www.pari.edu/) was a former spook shop. It was abandoned and handed over the the US Forest Service, dishes and all, for quite a few years. A group was put together to take it out of mothballs and make it useful for astronomy. I keep meaning to drive out there sometime when I'm visiting family. So if Hill AFB goes down, I'm sure Siegfried will convince them to hand it over to SLAS. On Dec 13, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Josephine Grahn wrote:
I know you all hoped I was kidding with the link I posted, but... it has concrete pads, secure storage, and power, plus a working outhouse. Anyone know anything about filing a new "Use Application" with the BLM? 25 miles SW of Delta, and we could branch out into ham radio :) It is on Ebay, and it is real. If you cannot follow the link, go to Ebay and punch in item number 4337701828.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=1607&item=4337701828
additional pictures and a map are at: http://home.rmci.net/ranse/
Jo
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You know, if we didn't get our brains fried by microwaves, that would be a great location. I'm wondering if the material in the tower could be sold, thereby reducing the overall cost. This really is an idea worth thinking about. -- Joe
The key word is .. decommissioned. This microwave tower is no longer active. That concrete bunker was made to survive bombs, so I am thinking it could be relatively safe to leave gear in. I just wish I knew whether the BLM would like kindly on a change in it's primary use. At 08:01 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
You know, if we didn't get our brains fried by microwaves, that would be a great location. I'm wondering if the material in the tower could be sold, thereby reducing the overall cost. This really is an idea worth thinking about. -- Joe
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What about the tower material? Is it salable? Would that reduce the overall cost? What if 10 of us got together and chipped in $1,000 each? -- Joe
Disclaimer -- I have NO idea what I am talking about-- I think it might take a good size cherry picker, or other heavy equipment to remove any of that stuff. I don't know what is inside those big horns either. I would not want to count on making money off of the scrap without an assessment of the difficulty and the possible hazardous materials, preferably from someone who actually knew what the heck they were doing :). Josephine At 08:24 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
What about the tower material? Is it salable? Would that reduce the overall cost? What if 10 of us got together and chipped in $1,000 each? -- Joe
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At just under $8,000, this does look like a really nice place to set up. The building is substantial, looks like it is secure with plenty of room inside to store things including a few cots, etc. Might be worth serious consideration. If I threw in $1,000, could we get enough others? Thanks, Joe
I think some sort of private coalition would probably make more sense, kind of a co-op. I would throw a thousand in. BUT... Does anyone really know whether the BLM would go for a change of Use? That is what worried us when Allen first saw it and pointed it out to me. I suspect that the "auction" dead line is not firm, so much as a way of getting it's availability out there. Perhaps we should contact the guy. Anyone else "IN" if it looks like we could get a change of use? I would guess that we would be forbidden from setting up camp there, although the odd cot for a nap might be acceptable. I imagine we would have to pay to have the road graded every year, plus taxes and lease fees. So.. it would not be a "one-time" cost. Jo At 08:43 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
At just under $8,000, this does look like a really nice place to set up. The building is substantial, looks like it is secure with plenty of room inside to store things including a few cots, etc. Might be worth serious consideration. If I threw in $1,000, could we get enough others? Thanks, Joe
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Did anyone else notice that the "horns" on the tower are 1,200lbs each and are made of aluminum.... I think that adds up to a bit of money to recycle those... just an Idea and I would be willing to pitch in some money for a good Dark Sky Site. Dan Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: I think some sort of private coalition would probably make more sense, kind of a co-op. I would throw a thousand in. BUT... Does anyone really know whether the BLM would go for a change of Use? That is what worried us when Allen first saw it and pointed it out to me. I suspect that the "auction" dead line is not firm, so much as a way of getting it's availability out there. Perhaps we should contact the guy. Anyone else "IN" if it looks like we could get a change of use? I would guess that we would be forbidden from setting up camp there, although the odd cot for a nap might be acceptable. I imagine we would have to pay to have the road graded every year, plus taxes and lease fees. So.. it would not be a "one-time" cost. Jo At 08:43 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
At just under $8,000, this does look like a really nice place to set up. The building is substantial, looks like it is secure with plenty of room inside to store things including a few cots, etc. Might be worth serious consideration. If I threw in $1,000, could we get enough others? Thanks, Joe
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Your mentioning road-grading reminds me of an important consideration: is this thing close to a paved road? If so, would it have much traffic at night? A big glare from headlights is pretty awful for night vision and maybe even for photography. Hummmm. -- Joe
If you check the web site link to the original post... oh okay, here it is again..., you will see a link to a satellite picture of the site. I think that it is probably not going to be too impacted by road lights. http://home.rmci.net/ranse/ Jo At 09:00 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
Your mentioning road-grading reminds me of an important consideration: is this thing close to a paved road? If so, would it have much traffic at night? A big glare from headlights is pretty awful for night vision and maybe even for photography. Hummmm. -- Joe
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, Joe Bauman wrote:
Your mentioning road-grading reminds me of an important consideration: is this thing close to a paved road?
I visited the site a few years ago with a friend who is a Long-Lines geek/buff, and the site is miles and miles from the nearest paved road. I wouldn't want to drive on that dirt road during anything other than dry conditions, and some folks might not be comfortable driving passenger cars to the site even in dry weather. (Myself included, but I'm not as, um, "enthusiastic" as some of the rest of you. :-) The site sits on a smallish/foothill-ish ridge line which has a clear view in several directions, so you could probably "see" headlights on the highway, but they'd be so far away that I doubt they'd be the least bit bothersome. (I wasn't there at night, however, and I don't know what y'all consider "bothersome", so take that with the appropriate grains of salt.) Come to think of it, the site is miles and miles away from almost everything. I say "almost" because, if I recall correctly, there is another communications facility on a nearby "bump" in the ridgeline, the antenna of which may or may not possess beacon lights. It's been long enough since I was there that I don't remember if the nearby site had an antenna tall enough to warrant beacons. Might be a good question for the seller of the adjacent Long-Lines site. Back when we visited the site, my friend and I thought the site might make a great place for an automated, radio-remote-controlled astronomical observatory. Maybe that kind of "communications" use would pacify the BLM. :-) Chris
I'd be interested for a few hundred. I wouldn't worry too much about land use, but a call to BLM should answer questions. Some of us looked into using BLM land years ago. Restrictions weren't too messy for what we had in mind. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Josephine Grahn<mailto:bsi@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Dark Sky site I think some sort of private coalition would probably make more sense, kind of a co-op. I would throw a thousand in. BUT... Does anyone really know whether the BLM would go for a change of Use? That is what worried us when Allen first saw it and pointed it out to me. I suspect that the "auction" dead line is not firm, so much as a way of getting it's availability out there. Perhaps we should contact the guy. Anyone else "IN" if it looks like we could get a change of use? I would guess that we would be forbidden from setting up camp there, although the odd cot for a nap might be acceptable. I imagine we would have to pay to have the road graded every year, plus taxes and lease fees. So.. it would not be a "one-time" cost. Jo At 08:43 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
At just under $8,000, this does look like a really nice place to set up. The building is substantial, looks like it is secure with plenty of room inside to store things including a few cots, etc. Might be worth serious consideration. If I threw in $1,000, could we get enough others? Thanks, Joe
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It just occurred to me that we could easily address the communications requirement: do a bit of SETI@home<mailto:SETI@home> on the site. Green flashing lasers count, too, don't they? Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Josephine Grahn<mailto:bsi@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Dark Sky site I think some sort of private coalition would probably make more sense, kind of a co-op. I would throw a thousand in. BUT... Does anyone really know whether the BLM would go for a change of Use? That is what worried us when Allen first saw it and pointed it out to me. I suspect that the "auction" dead line is not firm, so much as a way of getting it's availability out there. Perhaps we should contact the guy. Anyone else "IN" if it looks like we could get a change of use? I would guess that we would be forbidden from setting up camp there, although the odd cot for a nap might be acceptable. I imagine we would have to pay to have the road graded every year, plus taxes and lease fees. So.. it would not be a "one-time" cost.
Sorry, folks - one more thought. The SLAS money that was formerly the Dark Sky Site Fund was moved to the General Fund, but as I recall when the move was made we (SLAS members present) made it clear that the money could always be reclaimed for a dark site if ever a reasonable proposal was submitted to the membership. The amount was somewhere around $4K. As Joe says, Hmmmm. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas
sent the seller a question about road access. (No answer yet, but I'll forward it when one comes.) Then I tried to check the site's location on a highway map. The closest I could come was the Gunnison Massacre site, which is close to the Sevier River and also near U.S. 6 & 50. That's a heavily used route, the main one from Nevada through central Utah, linking up with I-15. The country around is desert, complete with flies and and other bugs probably cattle. Many years ago my wife and I drove out to see the Gunnison site, which is next to the Sevier. Access to the massacre monument is by dirt road. Once we reached the little monument I wanted to see what lay beyond, so turned left, going a little further along a side dirt road. The route looked fine but actually it wasn't. The Sevier had flooded, water sitting on the land for a long time. Then the flood had receded, leaving the ground saturated. A dust storm had blown through, giving the road a nice, dry appearance. So Cory and I drove happily along until suddenly the car seemed to loose traction, slipping around ominously. I realized we were in trouble, with a slippery surface, and tried to get to a place where the road went onto higher ground. But Cory was worried and wanted us to stop, turn around, and get out of there. Of course, as soon as I stopped, the wheels started to burrow into the mud. Then it was one of those back-and-forth routines that only dug us in deeper. Eventually the axle was on the ground and we could not move. This was I think about six miles of seldom-used dirt road away from 6-50. We had no choice but to hike out. Almost instantly our shoes became basketballs of mud. We slogged back to the main dirt road by the monument, which was dry, and started down it toward the distant highway. I said we would need a bulldozer to get our car out of there as a tow truck probably couldn't get to it without bogging down. Maybe we'd have to wait months for the ground to harden. Our chance of finding anyone to help that day seemed nil, since this was a Sunday and people don't often go there anyway. Astonishingly, a big flatbed truck came rumbling down the road to the monument. I flagged it down and found that the driver was going back to retrieve a BULLDOZER!! that had become stuck in the mud the day before. He headed off to pull the 'dozer out with his flatbed. Then he drove over to the vicinity of our stuck car and used the bulldozer to scrape a new road through the mud up to the car. This fellow lay down in the mud, digging out our rear axle and hooking a chain around the axle. Then he started up the truck and pulled us out. The car was undamaged and we were able to go on our way. Just an odd little event at a nearby site. -- Joe
Gads how very cool to buy a dark sky site. I wish the dog community would buy a nice building to do agility in... :) Cyn Josephine Grahn wrote:
I think some sort of private coalition would probably make more sense, kind of a co-op. I would throw a thousand in. BUT... Does anyone really know whether the BLM would go for a change of Use? That is what worried us when Allen first saw it and pointed it out to me. I suspect that the "auction" dead line is not firm, so much as a way of getting it's availability out there. Perhaps we should contact the guy. Anyone else "IN" if it looks like we could get a change of use? I would guess that we would be forbidden from setting up camp there, although the odd cot for a nap might be acceptable. I imagine we would have to pay to have the road graded every year, plus taxes and lease fees. So.. it would not be a "one-time" cost.
Jo
At 08:43 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
At just under $8,000, this does look like a really nice place to set up. The building is substantial, looks like it is secure with plenty of room inside to store things including a few cots, etc. Might be worth serious consideration. If I threw in $1,000, could we get enough others? Thanks, Joe
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This sounds like an idea worth worth incubating (as in sitting on eggs until they hatch). I doubt the BLM woudl object to a less risky use of their land and the idea better fits with BLM purpose. Seems like there is a HUGE gem of an idea here, Josephine. maybe we could put patrick's 8" refractor at the top of the tower (in a suitable enclosure, of course). We could probably see Washington DC from there - watch for planes, flying saucers, green men (and women) , etc. But what about us who don't like to climb more than 8.2 feet off the ground??? Maybe that wouldn't be a good idea. But the land use site is! Thanks fro the neuron connection, Josephine Can't beat the price, but I suspect it may go fast now! Jim Stitley Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: The key word is .. decommissioned. This microwave tower is no longer active. That concrete bunker was made to survive bombs, so I am thinking it could be relatively safe to leave gear in. I just wish I knew whether the BLM would like kindly on a change in it's primary use. At 08:01 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
You know, if we didn't get our brains fried by microwaves, that would be a great location. I'm wondering if the material in the tower could be sold, thereby reducing the overall cost. This really is an idea worth thinking about. -- Joe
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It's been sitting there for a month now. We have been looking at it and daydreaming, but we just don't have the finances to do it on our own, and I was concerned about getting a land use change order issued. However the club might have a better chance. On the rational side, it IS a long way from Salt Lake, and there is no water there. But..... Jo At 07:42 AM 12/14/2004 -0800, you wrote:
This sounds like an idea worth worth incubating (as in sitting on eggs until they hatch). I doubt the BLM woudl object to a less risky use of their land and the idea better fits with BLM purpose. Seems like there is a HUGE gem of an idea here, Josephine. maybe we could put patrick's 8" refractor at the top of the tower (in a suitable enclosure, of course). We could probably see Washington DC from there - watch for planes, flying saucers, green men (and women) , etc. But what about us who don't like to climb more than 8.2 feet off the ground??? Maybe that wouldn't be a good idea. But the land use site is! Thanks fro the neuron connection, Josephine Can't beat the price, but I suspect it may go fast now! Jim Stitley
Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: The key word is .. decommissioned. This microwave tower is no longer active. That concrete bunker was made to survive bombs, so I am thinking it could be relatively safe to leave gear in. I just wish I knew whether the BLM would like kindly on a change in it's primary use.
At 08:01 AM 12/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
You know, if we didn't get our brains fried by microwaves, that would be a great location. I'm wondering if the material in the tower could be sold, thereby reducing the overall cost. This really is an idea worth thinking about. -- Joe
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Maybe we're looking at this whole thing wrong. Imagine you're the 32 car and you're attempting to pass the 8 car at turn number 2, when suddenly from out of nowhere, you are hit in the face with a stray beam from a green laser pointer. It wouldn't take many incidents like this to pursuade Mr. Miller's insurance company that it might be in their best interest to relocate the observatory to a more suitable site... ;) Quoting Michael Carnes <moogiebird@earthlink.net>: I wonder what it would take to buy or lease
a few acres way out in the boonies...
Michael
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I recall a cloudy night at a dark sky site once, where people shined their flashlights through the focuser of their dobs, to create great beams of light in the sky..... At 11:53 PM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
Maybe we're looking at this whole thing wrong. Imagine you're the 32 car and you're attempting to pass the 8 car at turn number 2, when suddenly from out of nowhere, you are hit in the face with a stray beam from a green laser pointer. It wouldn't take many incidents like this to pursuade Mr. Miller's insurance company that it might be in their best interest to relocate the observatory to a more suitable site... ;)
Quoting Michael Carnes <moogiebird@earthlink.net>:
I wonder what it would take to buy or lease
a few acres way out in the boonies...
Michael
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participants (12)
-
Chuck Hards -
cpclark＠xmission.com -
Cynthia Blue -
Dan Wilde -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Jim Gibson -
Jim Stitley -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Kim Hyatt -
Michael Carnes -
Patrick Wiggins