I find myself in need of aid from someone with a planetarium program that can reveal planet locations on the sky, going back to at least 1918. There is a bit of preamble necessary to frame the question, please bear with me. The backstory, taken from "The Lafayette Flying Corps" by James Norman Hall & Charles Bernard Nordhoff, copyright 1920. Quotes are from the book, otherwise it's my commentary: "(Note: Harold Willis, of the Escadrille Lafayette, was shot down in combat behind the German lines on August 18, 1917. After several unsuccessful attempts at escape, he finally succeeded in crossing the German frontier into Switzerland by swimming the Rhine. Four simultaneous attempts were made to break out of the prison at Villengen by four groups of American aviators and Lieutenant Isaacs, of the U.S. Navy. The lights of the camp were short-circuited, whereupon each of the four groups followed prearranged plans for getting outside the camp. Willis was provided with a wooden gun and a prison-tailored uniform somewhat resembling that of the guards. His plan was to rush out of the camp with the German sentinals when the alarm was sounded. He made the cross-country journey to the border with Lieutenant Isaacs.)" Willis and Isaacs found each other in the darkness a little while after the escape. They hid during daylight hours and only traveled by night, to avoid detection. In the narrative, Willis wrote: "Every one who has wandered about much at night knows how difficult it is to judge heights, depths, and angles of slopes by starlight." Obviously there was not moon, I'm guessing that the escape was planned during moonless times intentionally. They did not use their tiny pocket flashlight while moving, lest it betray their position to any pursuit. Willis wrote that at times they checked their course against the north star, so obviously he knew the constellations at least in a rudimentary fashion. He goes on, writing about their second night: "The bridge spanned another roaring stream - quite as impossible to wade as the one of the previous night. Some planet or other which had just arisen gave us light enough to see that the place was deserted, so we slipped over." My question is, what planet could he be referring to? His escape is recorded as being on October 13, 1918, the planet reference would be the night of October 14th. He makes another reference that places the planet sighting before midnight, could have been as early as 10:30. He and Isaacs were at the time traversing the Black Forest, with mountainous horizons, so the "planet" could have been as high as 20 or even 30-degrees before it "rose", when reading the description of the bridge and stream in a canyon-bottom, but this is not certain. Checking my planisphere, there is a possibility that Willis confused Sirius with a planet, but I would think that he would know the Dog Star; too, it is a bit below the ecliptic and seems like it may have been too low in altitude at the time. Possible candidates are Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars near opposition. If none were in the area then it would have to have been Sirius. I'm also curious as to the phase of the moon at that time. Anybody care to set the "WayBack" machine for October 14, 1918, and see what shakes out? Thanks in advance, please post your results! C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Chuck, My Sky Map Pro tells me that on the evening of October 14, 1918, Venus was at 12h -02deg and Saturn was 09h +14deg. Mercury, Mars, and Neptune were present as well but of little significance. Guy Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
I find myself in need of aid from someone with a planetarium program that can reveal planet locations on the sky, going back to at least 1918. There is a bit of preamble necessary to frame the question, please bear with me.
The backstory, taken from "The Lafayette Flying Corps" by James Norman Hall & Charles Bernard Nordhoff, copyright 1920. Quotes are from the book, otherwise it's my commentary:
"(Note: Harold Willis, of the Escadrille Lafayette, was shot down in combat behind the German lines on August 18, 1917. After several unsuccessful attempts at escape, he finally succeeded in crossing the German frontier into Switzerland by swimming the Rhine. Four simultaneous attempts were made to break out of the prison at Villengen by four groups of American aviators and Lieutenant Isaacs, of the U.S. Navy. The lights of the camp were short-circuited, whereupon each of the four groups followed prearranged plans for getting outside the camp. Willis was provided with a wooden gun and a prison-tailored uniform somewhat resembling that of the guards. His plan was to rush out of the camp with
the German sentinals when the alarm was sounded. He made the cross-country journey to the border with Lieutenant Isaacs.)"
Willis and Isaacs found each other in the darkness a little while after the escape. They hid during daylight hours and only traveled by night, to avoid detection.
In the narrative, Willis wrote:
"Every one who has wandered about much at night knows how difficult it is to judge heights, depths, and angles of slopes by starlight."
Obviously there was not moon, I'm guessing that the escape was planned during moonless times intentionally.
They did not use their tiny pocket flashlight while moving, lest it betray their position to any pursuit. Willis wrote that at times they checked their course against the north star, so obviously he knew the constellations at least in a rudimentary fashion. He goes on, writing about their second night:
"The bridge spanned another roaring stream - quite as impossible to wade as the one of the previous night. Some planet or other which had just arisen gave us light enough to see that the place was deserted, so we slipped over."
My question is, what planet could he be referring to? His escape is recorded as being on October 13, 1918, the planet reference would be the night of October 14th. He makes another reference that places the planet sighting before midnight, could have been as early as 10:30. He and Isaacs were at the time traversing the Black Forest, with mountainous horizons, so the "planet" could have been as high as 20 or even 30-degrees before it "rose", when reading the description of the bridge and stream in a canyon-bottom, but this is not certain.
Checking my planisphere, there is a possibility that Willis confused Sirius with a planet, but I would think that he would know the Dog Star; too, it is a bit below the ecliptic and seems like it may have been too low in altitude at the time.
Possible candidates are Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars near opposition. If none were in the area then it would have to have been Sirius. I'm also curious as to the phase of the moon at that time.
Anybody care to set the "WayBack" machine for October 14, 1918, and see what shakes out?
Thanks in advance, please post your results!
C.
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Chuck, The information I just sent was wrong. Seems these planets were up with the sun. Going to the 'night' portion of the program we see that on the evening of Octobet 14th 1918, the Moon is at 1st qtr phase, and sets at 23:28 (11:28pm). Jupiter rises at 21:55 (9:55pm). At 22:30 (10:30pm) on that evening, Jupiter would be at 7h, +22 deg, and at a magnitude of -2.3 Guy Quoting diveboss@xmission.com:
Chuck,
My Sky Map Pro tells me that on the evening of October 14, 1918, Venus was at 12h -02deg and Saturn was 09h +14deg. Mercury, Mars, and Neptune were present as well but of little significance.
Guy
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
I find myself in need of aid from someone with a planetarium program that can reveal planet locations on the sky, going back to at least 1918. There is a bit of preamble necessary to frame the question, please bear with me.
The backstory, taken from "The Lafayette Flying Corps" by James Norman Hall & Charles Bernard Nordhoff, copyright 1920. Quotes are from the book, otherwise it's my commentary:
"(Note: Harold Willis, of the Escadrille Lafayette, was shot down in combat behind the German lines on August 18, 1917. After several unsuccessful attempts at escape, he finally succeeded in crossing the German frontier into Switzerland by swimming the Rhine. Four simultaneous attempts were made to break out of the prison at Villengen by four groups of American aviators and Lieutenant Isaacs, of the U.S. Navy. The lights of the camp were short-circuited, whereupon each of the four groups followed prearranged plans for getting outside the camp. Willis was provided with a wooden gun and a prison-tailored uniform somewhat resembling that of the guards. His plan was to rush out of the camp with
the German sentinals when the alarm was sounded. He made the cross-country journey to the border with Lieutenant Isaacs.)"
Willis and Isaacs found each other in the darkness a little while after the escape. They hid during daylight hours and only traveled by night, to avoid detection.
In the narrative, Willis wrote:
"Every one who has wandered about much at night knows how difficult it is to judge heights, depths, and angles of slopes by starlight."
Obviously there was not moon, I'm guessing that the escape was planned during moonless times intentionally.
They did not use their tiny pocket flashlight while moving, lest it betray their position to any pursuit. Willis wrote that at times they checked their course against the north star, so obviously he knew the constellations at least in a rudimentary fashion. He goes on, writing about their second night:
"The bridge spanned another roaring stream - quite as impossible to wade as the one of the previous night. Some planet or other which had just arisen gave us light enough to see that the place was deserted, so we slipped over."
My question is, what planet could he be referring to? His escape is recorded as being on October 13, 1918, the planet reference would be the night of October 14th. He makes another reference that places the planet sighting before midnight, could have been as early as 10:30. He and Isaacs were at the time traversing the Black Forest, with mountainous horizons, so the "planet" could have been as high as 20 or even 30-degrees before it "rose", when reading the description of the bridge and stream in a canyon-bottom, but this is not certain.
Checking my planisphere, there is a possibility that Willis confused Sirius with a planet, but I would think that he would know the Dog Star; too, it is a bit below the ecliptic and seems like it may have been too low in altitude at the time.
Possible candidates are Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars near opposition. If none were in the area then it would have to have been Sirius. I'm also curious as to the phase of the moon at that time.
Anybody care to set the "WayBack" machine for October 14, 1918, and see what shakes out?
Thanks in advance, please post your results!
C.
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Here is positional, rise, set, transit, and phase info according to xephem. I've included two days because the moon did not set on Oct 14.
Cns RA Dec Phase RisTm TrnTm SetTm Moon Aqr 20:55:14.34 -13:35:32.3 68 14:31 19:21 NoSet Mars Oph 16:36:14.29 -23:11:16.9 93 11:17 15:07 18:58 Jupiter Gem 7:10:45.77 22:19:16.3 99 21:27 5:44 13:59 Saturn Leo 9:57:03.20 13:39:09.4 100 1:11 8:31 15:50
Limb Equ: Topo 2000.0 10/14/1918 23:00:00 MET Site: Berlin, Germany
Cns RA Dec Phase RisTm TrnTm SetTm Moon Cap 21:49:04.00 -8:45:21.0 78 14:55 20:12 0:22 Mars Oph 16:39:20.86 -23:17:39.8 93 11:17 15:07 18:56 Jupiter Gem 7:11:01.62 22:18:55.3 99 21:23 5:41 13:55 Saturn Leo 9:57:24.30 13:37:28.4 100 1:08 8:27 15:46
Limb Equ: Topo 2000.0 10/15/1918 23:00:00 MET Site: Berlin, Germany
Lat: 52:32:00 Long: -13:25:00 Elev: 33.5m Temp: 10C Pres: 1010mB
---- Jim Cobb james@cobb.name
I have the Desktop Universe and I placed the settings to be in Berlin on Oct 14, 1918. I notice my numbers are different than other folks. So, it is either my software, me, or both. Will the real numbers please stand up!? The information I have is: Moon RA : 19h50m40s Dec: -18°23'41" Alt/Az: 17.73°/196.07° Rises: 14:02:50 Transits: 18:29:19 Sets: 23:03:54 Jupiter RA : 07h05m37s Dec: +22°27'32" Alt/Az: 0.04°/51.19° RA : 07h05m37s Dec: +22°27'32" Alt/Az: 0.04°/51.19° Pluto and Neptune were close by but I feel would not have registered in significance. Sirius RA : 07h05m37s Dec: +22°27'32" Alt/Az: 0.04°/51.19° Magnitude: -1.44 Spectral Type: A0m... B-V Index: 0.009 Rises: 00:48:21 Transits: 05:20:11 Sets: 09:52:01 Procyon RA : 07h35m00s Dec: +05°24'49" Alt/Az: 16.57°/103.06° Magnitude: 0.4 Spectral Type: F5IV-V B-V Index: 0.432 Rises: 23:38:30 Transits: 06:13:31 Sets: 12:44:35 Saturn RA : 09h52m21s Dec: +14°03'49" Alt/Az: 2.84°/70.43° Rises: 01:11:23 Transits: 08:30:35 Sets: 15:49:41 Thanks Chuck. That was fun. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: I find myself in need of aid from someone with a planetarium program that can reveal planet locations on the sky, going back to at least 1918. There is a bit of preamble necessary to frame the question, please bear with me. The backstory, taken from "The Lafayette Flying Corps" by James Norman Hall & Charles Bernard Nordhoff, copyright 1920. Quotes are from the book, otherwise it's my commentary: "(Note: Harold Willis, of the Escadrille Lafayette, was shot down in combat behind the German lines on August 18, 1917. After several unsuccessful attempts at escape, he finally succeeded in crossing the German frontier into Switzerland by swimming the Rhine. Four simultaneous attempts were made to break out of the prison at Villengen by four groups of American aviators and Lieutenant Isaacs, of the U.S. Navy. The lights of the camp were short-circuited, whereupon each of the four groups followed prearranged plans for getting outside the camp. Willis was provided with a wooden gun and a prison-tailored uniform somewhat resembling that of the guards. His plan was to rush out of the camp with the German sentinals when the alarm was sounded. He made the cross-country journey to the border with Lieutenant Isaacs.)" Willis and Isaacs found each other in the darkness a little while after the escape. They hid during daylight hours and only traveled by night, to avoid detection. In the narrative, Willis wrote: "Every one who has wandered about much at night knows how difficult it is to judge heights, depths, and angles of slopes by starlight." Obviously there was not moon, I'm guessing that the escape was planned during moonless times intentionally. They did not use their tiny pocket flashlight while moving, lest it betray their position to any pursuit. Willis wrote that at times they checked their course against the north star, so obviously he knew the constellations at least in a rudimentary fashion. He goes on, writing about their second night: "The bridge spanned another roaring stream - quite as impossible to wade as the one of the previous night. Some planet or other which had just arisen gave us light enough to see that the place was deserted, so we slipped over." My question is, what planet could he be referring to? His escape is recorded as being on October 13, 1918, the planet reference would be the night of October 14th. He makes another reference that places the planet sighting before midnight, could have been as early as 10:30. He and Isaacs were at the time traversing the Black Forest, with mountainous horizons, so the "planet" could have been as high as 20 or even 30-degrees before it "rose", when reading the description of the bridge and stream in a canyon-bottom, but this is not certain. Checking my planisphere, there is a possibility that Willis confused Sirius with a planet, but I would think that he would know the Dog Star; too, it is a bit below the ecliptic and seems like it may have been too low in altitude at the time. Possible candidates are Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars near opposition. If none were in the area then it would have to have been Sirius. I'm also curious as to the phase of the moon at that time. Anybody care to set the "WayBack" machine for October 14, 1918, and see what shakes out? Thanks in advance, please post your results! C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
participants (4)
-
Chuck Hards -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Jim Cobb -
Jim Gibson