Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 57
I note that my questions concerning Mormon astronomy meet with censure, while the promotion of Intelligent Design does not. Fascinating. Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Julie Clyde) 2. age of universe, evolution, yada yada (RON VANDERHULE) 3. Killer Confesses to Murdering Pluto (Jay Eads)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 16:28:50 -0700 From: Julie Clyde <jchorley@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification Message-ID: <AANLkTi=wEOSajVfyoUo0ZJSFujxYrbLD7sF4QcMKB+2q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
When I was a child and I asked questions about the differences in scientific discoveries and LDS beliefs, my devout LDS mother either told me that science was wrong (like carbon dating for example) or that we didn't know how long God's day was, hence there was no conflict. This was 40ish years ago though, and I really don't know how she would reconcile today's information with her beliefs. I have to add, that as an impressionable child who firmly believed my mother knew all, I scoffed at science for most of my childhood/teen years.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Me Siegfried <ziggy943@xmission.com> wrote:
May I respectfully suggest he contact the LDS church for an official position. I have read the Kolob Theorem. It's not the church position.
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message----- From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 21:04:53 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
Someone using the name Richard Garrard has been posting on an exMormon website, with the topic "Satan Stories in the Mormon Church."
Another posting from 2000 is, "Richard Garrard, April 2000 - Proposition 22 and other LDS church political activities; their continued Orwellian changes to doctrine and history; my growing confidence in myself and unwillingness to live someone else's life, for another's approval. Also, I have found a far more valid identity as a humanist, which is fundamentally incompatible with the blind faith, conformity, irrationality, supernaturalism, inhumanity and tortured apologetics of Mormonism."
I'm concerned because this forum is about astronomy, not sociology. Richard, if you are the same poster, can you tell us why you want people to comment on the Mormon view concerning astronomy? As a non-Mormon but a respectful friend to many Mormons, I think we should be careful that this discussion group isn't used as fodder for someone's agenda.
Thanks, Joe
--- On Mon, 12/13/10, garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> wrote:
From: garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 1:42 PM Thanks, Chuck, for sharing the information and pointing out my pasting error.
I've been thinking about the recommendation. It's probably what I'd do, and that would certainly get me out of a sticky situation, but what about the kid? If they take an astronomy question to their bishop, he won't have any answers, unless the bishop's an astronomer, other than "we don't know everything", "we'll find out on the other side" or that old curiosity-killer, "that's not necessary for your salvation."
I know, I know, we can't transgress on the parents' turf. But I'm becoming more and more concerned about the quality of scientific education in this country, when we can't counter the garbage being churned out by the freaks on the fringe. What if a parent has a passionate attachment to the ideas of Sitchin or von Daniken? Do we treat it as equal to religion and thus not refutable? And so on.
Thanks for listening, and any other information.
Richard
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:13:53 -0700 From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=4Mq6vrqXWhF9q1DTzvaY14urp+_PK66xPM5pF@mail.gmail.com<4Mq6vrqXWhF9q1DTzvaY14urp%2B_PK66xPM5pF@mail.gmail.com>
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35 years ago, I frequently gave talks and put on astronomy slide shows at area schools, up to the high school level.
Whenever questions arose that had their foundation in scriptural descriptions of cosmology and/or evolution, I always politely referred those students to their religious leaders for more information, explaining that such questions are out of the realm of scientific research.
Garrard, it seems that you are subscribed to the "digest" format. Can you do me a favor and when replying to a comment, please don't quote the entire digest or thread. Edit your reply to include only the comment you reply to. It helps me enormously in not having to pick through dozens of repeat posts.
Thanks!
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:20:15 -0700 From: "RON VANDERHULE" <deepsky100@msn.com> To: "utah-astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] age of universe, evolution, yada yada Message-ID: <BAY157-ds8607F2BD3D04A040189A681130@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi group, Just want to pull a few lines from some of the posts today and comment;
1) "Understanding evolution is vital to understanding biology" This statement is propagated in various forms and lacks merit of any kind. Genetics is vital, and a proven science. Evolutionists assume because there are similarities in genetic make-up between different species,one morphed from another. I have made it a habit over the years to look in the index of high school biology books under the topic of evolution and I have found very little. Often not even a chapter. I understand that it is one of the least covered sciences on the university level. Often not even required for related fields. So maybe an example of how its understanding is so critical is in order.
2) "Number of evidences that the Universe is older than it is" I might add there are evidences that it is younger than supposed also. Einstein said all the clocks in the Universe run at different speeds (rough translation). One thing the science of Cosmology has revealed over the years is how complex and mysterious the Universe is.
3)"Information Theory the death knell for Neo-Darwinism" What goes on in a single cell is mind boggling. is like a little city with a host of creative activities taking place. The information rich DNA in that cell is the key to all life. The authors of The Mysteries of Life's Origins said that the information in the DNA is mathematically identical to the information in a written language or computer code and indicates an intelligent cause. And these are just regular scientists. Francis Crick, Sir Fred Hoyle, and even Richard Dawkins give credence to this notion. In the documentary "Expelled" in the interview with Dawkins, he admitted that life's origins are so unexplainable that possibly beings from another world planted life here. He also acknowledged a 50% chance that God exists. I saw and heard those statements. I choked on my popcorn.
4) Palmaris longus muscle and tendon group is missing in 14% of the population and is attributed to muscle variation mostly along ethnic lines, which is quite common. The assertion that it is evolving away, that wisdom teeth are leftovers from our cud chewing ancestors, the appendix was a second stomach are nothing more than fanciful asumptions.
Ron
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Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:28:45 -0700 From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Killer Confesses to Murdering Pluto Message-ID: <AANLkTi=naStfsrEwBiWC046eLS3xOUuE5Xb7R7Q4WNNm@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Good article on NPR on how astronomer Mike Brown explains why he didn't start off to murder Pluto. Has a sound bite, and an excerpt from his new book on the subject.
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/12/131932177/killer-confesses-to-pluto-s-murder-i...
-- Jay Eads
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End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 57 **********************************************
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood some comments regarding your inquiry. Most of us on this list try to be sensitive about other points of view, but there have been those times when opinions are mocked and personalities become the targets of comments instead of scientific debate. Hence my initial question about the purpose of your investigation. Censure is too strong a term. Some of us are just a bit gun shy about potentially loaded questions such as yours. We have entertained many opinions regarding intelligent design, creationism, Big Bang, even steady-state theories. None have been promoted, per se, at least not officially. We just make fun of those who still believe in such nonsense. (BIG smiley face here.) I wouldn't object to an open forum on this list on religious questions as they relate to astronomy, but the consensus seems to be that the subject is too toxic in Utah's culture. If our moderator chooses to allow it, why not? I'm not afraid, and I don't think most of us are. We just don't want to allow religious discussion to overwhelm intelligent discussions of astronomy, in general, which is after all the purpose of the list. Kim Richard wrote: "I note that my questions concerning Mormon astronomy meet with censure, while the promotion of Intelligent Design does not. Fascinating."
My understanding is that the Book of Abraham contains three or four chapters on the topic of Astronomy. Is this true? This seems like a reasonable discussion topic.
I was baptized and confirmed Lutheran and went to a private Lutheran College. I dismissed the Book of Genesis, as factually based, long ago, even as a youth it seemed like a tall tale. The problem I see is that some want religious beliefs taught in school, in science class to be exact. Many people here have commented that this topic comes up in the classrooms of Utah. This would make me hesitant to present Astronomical topics in the classroom. Religious topics were never discussed in the public classrooms I grew up in, that was left up to the private schools and churches. As for insults or antagonism on this list, I would remind everyone that intent is hard to figure on internet postings. Sensibilities can be easily to offended and these sensibilities are beyond anyones control. I do have a great deal of respect for my Astronomical Society friends, we are a very diverse group. Erik
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood some comments regarding your inquiry. Most of us on this list try to be sensitive about other points of view, but there have been those times when opinions are mocked and personalities become the targets of comments instead of scientific debate. Hence my initial question about the purpose of your investigation. Censure is too strong a term. Some of us are just a bit gun shy about potentially loaded questions such as yours. We have entertained many opinions regarding intelligent design, creationism, Big Bang, even steady-state theories. None have been promoted, per se, at least not officially. We just make fun of those who still believe in such nonsense. (BIG smiley face here.)
I wouldn't object to an open forum on this list on religious questions as they relate to astronomy, but the consensus seems to be that the subject is too toxic in Utah's culture. If our moderator chooses to allow it, why not? I'm not afraid, and I don't think most of us are. We just don't want to allow religious discussion to overwhelm intelligent discussions of astronomy, in general, which is after all the purpose of the list.
Kim
Richard wrote:
"I note that my questions concerning Mormon astronomy meet with censure, while the promotion of Intelligent Design does not. Fascinating."
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participants (3)
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erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
garrard55＠xmission.com -
Kim