To call or not to call. That is the question.
Should We Call the Cosmos Seeking ET? Or Is That Risky? http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/call-cosmos-seeking-risky-2895084... Opinions? patrick
I'm with Hawking on this one, and not just as a yes (wo)man. I've wondered along those lines since the made for television "V" movies made way back in the (cough cough) 70s. I swear "Independence Day" stole their alien ships from the V movies. Besides the dangers go back to "pod people." Gah, just remembered the name of the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." We may not be sentient enough for some alien races. Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wiggins Patrick" <paw@getbeehive.net> To: "Astronomy Utah" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 10:11:26 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. Should We Call the Cosmos Seeking ET? Or Is That Risky? http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/call-cosmos-seeking-risky-2895084... Opinions? patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE Grins, patrick
With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”. I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Okay Dave, it is obvious you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full. We probably both agree there is life, somewhere out there. We may differ on whether that life is sentient (life on earth being sentient is debatable), but we do differ on whether that life will ever have a opportunity to interact with one another. You say no, I say yes ...... I'll just grab the water jug and fill up the glass :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gary" <davegary@me.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:03:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”. I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Dave assumes that our physics is correct and the distances are too great to traverse. If our physics are correct I would agree. But we need to remember that today's truth replaced yesterday's truth and it will be replaced by tomorrow's truth. I am not smart enough to understand why c should be the ultimate speed of the universe. Maybe space travel isn't such a big deal for beings with 10,000 year life spans. I think certainly there is other life in the universe. It would be interesting to find out what kind of life as log as it doesn't consider us delicious. On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Okay Dave, it is obvious you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full. We probably both agree there is life, somewhere out there. We may differ on whether that life is sentient (life on earth being sentient is debatable), but we do differ on whether that life will ever have a opportunity to interact with one another. You say no, I say yes ...... I'll just grab the water jug and fill up the glass :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gary" <davegary@me.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:03:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question.
With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”.
I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
I’m of the opinion that that the universe is teeming with life. Plenty of sentient beings included. What I don’t buy is that these other sentient beings have been here or are going to get here any time soon. Andromeda galaxy is quite close, right in our own back yard, so to speak. It’s ~2.5 million light years distant. No one, leaving there today bound for Earth, is going to get here any time soon. Maybe there’s someone else in our own galaxy? Ok, maybe they’re 10,000 light years distant, or 90,000 light years away. No matter how you cut it, the odometer on their spaceship had better have a rollover area for an exponential included. The distance to Andromeda galaxy (in miles…this is for Joe) is ~1.47 X 10^19 (I think). Have a nice trip. We’ll pick up the paper for you until you get back. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 13:54, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> wrote:
Dave assumes that our physics is correct and the distances are too great to traverse. If our physics are correct I would agree. But we need to remember that today's truth replaced yesterday's truth and it will be replaced by tomorrow's truth. I am not smart enough to understand why c should be the ultimate speed of the universe. Maybe space travel isn't such a big deal for beings with 10,000 year life spans. I think certainly there is other life in the universe. It would be interesting to find out what kind of life as log as it doesn't consider us delicious.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Okay Dave, it is obvious you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full. We probably both agree there is life, somewhere out there. We may differ on whether that life is sentient (life on earth being sentient is debatable), but we do differ on whether that life will ever have a opportunity to interact with one another. You say no, I say yes ...... I'll just grab the water jug and fill up the glass :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gary" <davegary@me.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:03:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question.
With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”.
I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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This isn't really scientific, but something interesting that is somewhat related to this topic. I've read a few contracts for college football games and when they talk about TV broadcast rights, the wording is something like rights "throughout the universe", although I can't remember exactly, it is something pretty close to that. I thought it was interesting that even they acknowledge that we are constantly sending signals for other civilizations to pick up (although maybe not that strong) From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. I’m of the opinion that that the universe is teeming with life. Plenty of sentient beings included. What I don’t buy is that these other sentient beings have been here or are going to get here any time soon. Andromeda galaxy is quite close, right in our own back yard, so to speak. It’s ~2.5 million light years distant. No one, leaving there today bound for Earth, is going to get here any time soon. Maybe there’s someone else in our own galaxy? Ok, maybe they’re 10,000 light years distant, or 90,000 light years away. No matter how you cut it, the odometer on their spaceship had better have a rollover area for an exponential included. The distance to Andromeda galaxy (in miles…this is for Joe) is ~1.47 X 10^19 (I think). Have a nice trip. We’ll pick up the paper for you until you get back. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 13:54, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> wrote:
Dave assumes that our physics is correct and the distances are too great to traverse. If our physics are correct I would agree. But we need to remember that today's truth replaced yesterday's truth and it will be replaced by tomorrow's truth. I am not smart enough to understand why c should be the ultimate speed of the universe. Maybe space travel isn't such a big deal for beings with 10,000 year life spans. I think certainly there is other life in the universe. It would be interesting to find out what kind of life as log as it doesn't consider us delicious.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Okay Dave, it is obvious you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full. We probably both agree there is life, somewhere out there. We may differ on whether that life is sentient (life on earth being sentient is debatable), but we do differ on whether that life will ever have a opportunity to interact with one another. You say no, I say yes ...... I'll just grab the water jug and fill up the glass :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gary" <davegary@me.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:03:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question.
With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”.
I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
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Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings. As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way. Rich Allen
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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Look at what NASA has done by actually having people design and work on concepts of an FTL drive which just happens to be similar to the warp drive from Star Trek, yes I know sci-fi and what not but creating a warp bubble around the ship that theoretically does work. Alcubierre’s device worked by distorting space-time, expanding the space behind a ship and contracting the space in front of it to create a ‘warp bubble’ that essentially moves space and time around the object, rather than actually accelerating the craft to impossible speeds. They have even shown that it will not require a mass-energy the size of Jupiter to supply the power but a much smaller mass which they say is the size of the Voyager spacecraft. Humans have not even reached a type I Kardashev level of power and are still a century or two away from that point so it is going to be a long time before we are able to venture out into interstellar space. I remember reading a lot about this a couple of years ago and some of the things we would need to overcome is a shield to protect the crew and ship and a way to dissipate the shock wave travelling in front of the spacecraft as it would have enough energy and mass to wipe out any solar system that was being entered by a ship travelling at speeds faster then the speed of light. Oh well one can dream. On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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-- Such a long long time to be gone, such a short time to be there.
Stephen Hawking not too long ago warned that interacting with 'aliens' would be dangerous... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36769422/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/hawking... On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Robert Taylor <ratskradmt@gmail.com> wrote:
Look at what NASA has done by actually having people design and work on concepts of an FTL drive which just happens to be similar to the warp drive from Star Trek, yes I know sci-fi and what not but creating a warp bubble around the ship that theoretically does work. Alcubierre’s device worked by distorting space-time, expanding the space behind a ship and contracting the space in front of it to create a ‘warp bubble’ that essentially moves space and time around the object, rather than actually accelerating the craft to impossible speeds. They have even shown that it will not require a mass-energy the size of Jupiter to supply the power but a much smaller mass which they say is the size of the Voyager spacecraft. Humans have not even reached a type I Kardashev level of power and are still a century or two away from that point so it is going to be a long time before we are able to venture out into interstellar space. I remember reading a lot about this a couple of years ago and some of the things we would need to overcome is a shield to protect the crew and ship and a way to dissipate the shock wave travelling in front of the spacecraft as it would have enough energy and mass to wipe out any solar system that was being entered by a ship travelling at speeds faster then the speed of light. Oh well one can dream.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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I have read articles in arxiv concerning Alcubierre’s warp drive. What Alcubierre did (at least this is what I think he did, my powers of reason dwindle by the day) is take various changed metric scenarios for spacetime (i.e., warp scenarios) and calculate the energy requirements for each said transition. I believe he called it “metric engineering”. However, all his energy solutions would not work in the real world because they were calculated to have a negative energy density. In other words, these “warp” scenarios required an exotic, yet to be seen, matter that would supply “negative energy densities“ to achieve his changed metric and not suffer the situation of closed time-like curves inherent within all faster-than-light theoretic constructs. So, I think this smaller, negative-energy mass (the Voyager-sized mass you describe) would have to found or manufactured before any space-time metric engineering solution would be feasible. I wish him luck, warp drive would be cool. However, I don’t think Alcubierre is going to pick up any negative-energy mass at Lowe’s or Home Depot any time soon. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 19:00, Robert Taylor <ratskradmt@gmail.com> wrote:
Look at what NASA has done by actually having people design and work on concepts of an FTL drive which just happens to be similar to the warp drive from Star Trek, yes I know sci-fi and what not but creating a warp bubble around the ship that theoretically does work. Alcubierre’s device worked by distorting space-time, expanding the space behind a ship and contracting the space in front of it to create a ‘warp bubble’ that essentially moves space and time around the object, rather than actually accelerating the craft to impossible speeds. They have even shown that it will not require a mass-energy the size of Jupiter to supply the power but a much smaller mass which they say is the size of the Voyager spacecraft. Humans have not even reached a type I Kardashev level of power and are still a century or two away from that point so it is going to be a long time before we are able to venture out into interstellar space. I remember reading a lot about this a couple of years ago and some of the things we would need to overcome is a shield to protect the crew and ship and a way to dissipate the shock wave travelling in front of the spacecraft as it would have enough energy and mass to wipe out any solar system that was being entered by a ship travelling at speeds faster then the speed of light. Oh well one can dream.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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I went and finally saw interstellar this weekend, since we're on the topic. Curious what others thought. I thought it had promise starting out, but it was too long (IMO) and they introduced more conundrums and plot holes than a barrel of swiss cheese. I left the theater with a sigh, feeling annoyed./R From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. I have read articles in arxiv concerning Alcubierre’s warp drive. What Alcubierre did (at least this is what I think he did, my powers of reason dwindle by the day) is take various changed metric scenarios for spacetime (i.e., warp scenarios) and calculate the energy requirements for each said transition. I believe he called it “metric engineering”. However, all his energy solutions would not work in the real world because they were calculated to have a negative energy density. In other words, these “warp” scenarios required an exotic, yet to be seen, matter that would supply “negative energy densities“ to achieve his changed metric and not suffer the situation of closed time-like curves inherent within all faster-than-light theoretic constructs. So, I think this smaller, negative-energy mass (the Voyager-sized mass you describe) would have to found or manufactured before any space-time metric engineering solution would be feasible. I wish him luck, warp drive would be cool. However, I don’t think Alcubierre is going to pick up any negative-energy mass at Lowe’s or Home Depot any time soon. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 19:00, Robert Taylor <ratskradmt@gmail.com> wrote:
Look at what NASA has done by actually having people design and work on concepts of an FTL drive which just happens to be similar to the warp drive from Star Trek, yes I know sci-fi and what not but creating a warp bubble around the ship that theoretically does work. Alcubierre’s device worked by distorting space-time, expanding the space behind a ship and contracting the space in front of it to create a ‘warp bubble’ that essentially moves space and time around the object, rather than actually accelerating the craft to impossible speeds. They have even shown that it will not require a mass-energy the size of Jupiter to supply the power but a much smaller mass which they say is the size of the Voyager spacecraft. Humans have not even reached a type I Kardashev level of power and are still a century or two away from that point so it is going to be a long time before we are able to venture out into interstellar space. I remember reading a lot about this a couple of years ago and some of the things we would need to overcome is a shield to protect the crew and ship and a way to dissipate the shock wave travelling in front of the spacecraft as it would have enough energy and mass to wipe out any solar system that was being entered by a ship travelling at speeds faster then the speed of light. Oh well one can dream.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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-- Such a long long time to be gone, such a short time to be there.
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
There are several possibilities that affect the prospect of interstellar travel beyond the lack of technology to do it. It's possible and even likely that while planets are common habitable planets are extremely rare. The collision that gave us the moon rearranged our planets geology. We have a big dynamic core with a thin active crust. This gives us a nice magnetic bubble that shields us from cosmic radiation. We really can't five very long anywhere else without digging a hole in the ground to hide from the radiation. That's the main reason we can't move to the moon or Mars or anywhere else in this system. The atmosphere we want needs life itself to turn CO2 into O2. So a habitable planet will have to already be inhabited by at least the bluegreen algae we have here. The odds of that happening very slim. It's highly unlikely we will find this in more than a very few solar systems. At the other end of the pessimism spectrum, any habitable planet will already be inhabited by beings intelligent but unwilling to share with us. We may be looking for a quiet suburb but only finding other versions of Detroit DT From: Richard Tenney via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. I went and finally saw interstellar this weekend, since we're on the topic. Curious what others thought. I thought it had promise starting out, but it was too long (IMO) and they introduced more conundrums and plot holes than a barrel of swiss cheese. I left the theater with a sigh, feeling annoyed./R From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. I have read articles in arxiv concerning Alcubierre’s warp drive. What Alcubierre did (at least this is what I think he did, my powers of reason dwindle by the day) is take various changed metric scenarios for spacetime (i.e., warp scenarios) and calculate the energy requirements for each said transition. I believe he called it “metric engineering”. However, all his energy solutions would not work in the real world because they were calculated to have a negative energy density. In other words, these “warp” scenarios required an exotic, yet to be seen, matter that would supply “negative energy densities“ to achieve his changed metric and not suffer the situation of closed time-like curves inherent within all faster-than-light theoretic constructs. So, I think this smaller, negative-energy mass (the Voyager-sized mass you describe) would have to found or manufactured before any space-time metric engineering solution would be feasible. I wish him luck, warp drive would be cool. However, I don’t think Alcubierre is going to pick up any negative-energy mass at Lowe’s or Home Depot any time soon. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 19:00, Robert Taylor <ratskradmt@gmail.com> wrote:
Look at what NASA has done by actually having people design and work on concepts of an FTL drive which just happens to be similar to the warp drive from Star Trek, yes I know sci-fi and what not but creating a warp bubble around the ship that theoretically does work. Alcubierre’s device worked by distorting space-time, expanding the space behind a ship and contracting the space in front of it to create a ‘warp bubble’ that essentially moves space and time around the object, rather than actually accelerating the craft to impossible speeds. They have even shown that it will not require a mass-energy the size of Jupiter to supply the power but a much smaller mass which they say is the size of the Voyager spacecraft. Humans have not even reached a type I Kardashev level of power and are still a century or two away from that point so it is going to be a long time before we are able to venture out into interstellar space. I remember reading a lot about this a couple of years ago and some of the things we would need to overcome is a shield to protect the crew and ship and a way to dissipate the shock wave travelling in front of the spacecraft as it would have enough energy and mass to wipe out any solar system that was being entered by a ship travelling at speeds faster then the speed of light. Oh well one can dream.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
The extra dimensions are at the quantum level, if they are there. WMAP and Planck data show the universe to be nearly flat. It is very close to Euclidean in terms of its macroscopic geometry. We are talking about aliens that could, possibly, come take us over and make us their minions. I would assume they would have to be macroscopic in size and make macroscopic-sized instruments of war for us to take notice. At the very least, I would think they would be larger than quantum strings. I think the only way to go, for now, is from the start point to the end point if they are to get here. Anything is possible. I play the probabilities.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:57, Rich Allen <rico@ricosweb.net> wrote:
Einstein's universal speed limit only applies if you pass through all points between your start and end point. We don't know if extra-dimensional travel is possible, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to say that it's impossible. I also don't believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited our solar system... that kind of energy expenditure likely wouldn't be wasted on covert visits or joy rides that result in crash landings.
As has been stated before, we're already sending out signals. More of them, no matter what the message, won't tip the scales either way.
Rich Allen
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-- Such a long long time to be gone, such a short time to be there.
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
I was laughing so hard at this my wife thought I was going to fall over dead. OK, I give up. They are coming, they may be here. I can not get the image out of my head of a bunch of alien contract lawyers going at it with the best and brightest Earth has to offer. Come to think of it, maybe they already have. Lawyers….. Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 16:12, Chris Watson via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
This isn't really scientific, but something interesting that is somewhat related to this topic. I've read a few contracts for college football games and when they talk about TV broadcast rights, the wording is something like rights "throughout the universe", although I can't remember exactly, it is something pretty close to that. I thought it was interesting that even they acknowledge that we are constantly sending signals for other civilizations to pick up (although maybe not that strong) From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question.
I’m of the opinion that that the universe is teeming with life. Plenty of sentient beings included. What I don’t buy is that these other sentient beings have been here or are going to get here any time soon. Andromeda galaxy is quite close, right in our own back yard, so to speak. It’s ~2.5 million light years distant. No one, leaving there today bound for Earth, is going to get here any time soon. Maybe there’s someone else in our own galaxy? Ok, maybe they’re 10,000 light years distant, or 90,000 light years away. No matter how you cut it, the odometer on their spaceship had better have a rollover area for an exponential included. The distance to Andromeda galaxy (in miles…this is for Joe) is ~1.47 X 10^19 (I think). Have a nice trip. We’ll pick up the paper for you until you get back.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 13:54, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> wrote:
Dave assumes that our physics is correct and the distances are too great to traverse. If our physics are correct I would agree. But we need to remember that today's truth replaced yesterday's truth and it will be replaced by tomorrow's truth. I am not smart enough to understand why c should be the ultimate speed of the universe. Maybe space travel isn't such a big deal for beings with 10,000 year life spans. I think certainly there is other life in the universe. It would be interesting to find out what kind of life as log as it doesn't consider us delicious.
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Okay Dave, it is obvious you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full. We probably both agree there is life, somewhere out there. We may differ on whether that life is sentient (life on earth being sentient is debatable), but we do differ on whether that life will ever have a opportunity to interact with one another. You say no, I say yes ...... I'll just grab the water jug and fill up the glass :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gary" <davegary@me.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:03:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question.
With what we know about galactic distances I think it’s a moot point discussing the scenario. It’s akin to asking, “If I stand on a ladder am I closer to Moon?” Technically, yes, practically, not a chance. Who cares what we beam out into the void. We’ll never get a chance to see these aliens. Likely, our generation would never get a chance to respond to them. People, even the smart ones, fail to remember the enormous distances involved. We’ve had probes out since the late ‘70s and they’re just now passing heliopause. I don’t care what intelligence these aliens possess, they will bump up against physical reality just like everyone else. Within space-time nothing travels faster than light. Getting a massive object to that limiting velocity is not possible. Going any slower doesn’t get one very far in this universe. This is assuming we are dealing with the lifetime of a biologic organism, a pretty safe assumption. Let’s see, what multicellular organism on Earth could make an extended voyage (say two to three thousand years with no technical difficulties (highly unlikely), which, by the way, won’t get one very far even at the speed of light). Oh, yeah, a bristlecone pine. The last time I checked bristlecone pines aren’t great conversationalists nor are they concerned about planetary conquest. As a species we’ve never been visited by aliens nor are we likely to. Throw those signals out into space, put the return address. No one will deliver a reply for a very long time, if ever. They, certainly, will not come in person. This is purely an anthropocentric view, but what’s the point of conquering if one can’t be there in person to reap the reward? This would be a real bummer for a “galactic Viking”.
I love science fiction as much as anyone. However, one must always remember, at least as concerns intergalactic or intragalactic space travel, that it is just fiction.
Dave
On Feb 21, 2015, at 00:43, Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> wrote:
On 21 Feb 2015, at 00:34, Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Didn't Chuck post about a scifi story where earthlings were "meat" a while ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Though I prefer "giant bags of mostly water"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlqp0_a0tE
Grins,
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-- Siegfried
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Judging from history amongst us humans here on Earth, it would depend on which had the most advanced civilization. If ours was superior, no problem, we would most likely be the ones doing the dominating. If their's is the superior one, watch out!! From: Wiggins Patrick <paw@getbeehive.net> To: Astronomy Utah <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 10:11 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] To call or not to call. That is the question. Should We Call the Cosmos Seeking ET? Or Is That Risky? http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/call-cosmos-seeking-risky-2895084... Opinions? patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
At work last night I was lucky enough to talk to one of the pilots of the NASA Sofia mission. I never really knew about Sofia before, so I looked it up, it is a pretty cool idea. It is a 2.5 meter telescope mounted to a 747 that observes around 41000 feet. I'm not nearly as smart as most people here, but I think any investment we make in education/learning is very worth it. The pilot mentioned that even on the day of their first flight people were trying to cut all their funding, then suggested that I go like their facebook page. I thought it was interesting that something like Facebook likes is something that could help determine future funding, but that seemed to be what he was implying - although it was hard to make out exactly what he was saying as the radios were very poor. I told him that I would post here and see if I could get a few more likes. So if you feel like supporting the mission, just go to their facebook and push "like". https://www.facebook.com/pages/SOFIA-Stratospheric-Observatory-for-Infrared-... Here is their main page http://www.sofia.usra.edu/
participants (11)
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Chris Watson -
CJ Cottrill -
daniel turner -
Dave Gary -
Joan Carman -
M Wilson -
Rich Allen -
Richard Tenney -
Robert Taylor -
Siegfried Jachmann -
Wiggins Patrick