I've read variously that the Huygens probe was designed to send data from the surface of Titan for only one to three minutes. Can this be true? Patrick, can you shed some light on this? I'd think that at least an hour would be required to make sure good data is recovered. TIA, C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
The Huygens probe is designed to have power for 153 minutes. They expect a maximum decent time of 2 1/2 hours. This would leave 3 minutes on the surface. If it decends faster or the batteries last longer the Cassini probe has a 3 hour window to collect the data. The data will be sent back to Earth after that. Ken -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:28 AM To: Utah-Astro Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Huygens probe I've read variously that the Huygens probe was designed to send data from the surface of Titan for only one to three minutes. Can this be true? Patrick, can you shed some light on this? I'd think that at least an hour would be required to make sure good data is recovered. TIA, C. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Thanks Ken. What a waste. Too bad there is such bad press toward nuclear powered probes. Still, any data from Titan will be welcome. C. --- Ken Warner <KillerKen@killerken.com> wrote:
The Huygens probe is designed to have power for 153 minutes. They expect a maximum decent time of 2 1/2 hours. This would leave 3 minutes on the surface. If it decends faster or the batteries last longer the Cassini probe has a 3 hour window to collect the data. The data will be sent back to Earth after that.
Ken
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
One consolation is that it will be broadcasting on the way down (I think). Still, I agree: what a stupid, stupid waste if it only puts out signals from the surface for three minutes! Is that possible? What if they're off a little on wind speed and the probe actually takes four hours to descend? With all this expense and effort, you'd think the planners would have been smart enough to schedule a good long broadcast period from the surface. Did it not have nuclear power on board? That's just dumb. Here's the most important and exciting space probe we've ever launched, and it is intended to emit signals during the most crucial part of the mission for just three minutes! -- Joe
To be fair, theres a good chance that the "surface" is "liquid"...Huygens will be a boat! Much harder to engineer a device when you're not even sure of it's operating environment. But I agree that the surface phase of the mission got the short end of the stick... C. --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
One consolation is that it will be broadcasting on the way down (I think). Still, I agree: what a stupid, stupid waste if it only puts out signals from the surface for three minutes! Is that possible? What if they're off a little on wind speed and the probe actually takes four hours to descend? With all this expense and effort, you'd think the planners would have been smart enough to schedule a good long broadcast period from the surface. Did it not have nuclear power on board? That's just dumb. Here's the most important and exciting space probe we've ever launched, and it is intended to emit signals during the most crucial part of the mission for just three minutes! -- Joe
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
A new subject for discussion, if anyon'e interested. In pictures like this -- http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/12/11/index.html -- we see evidence of channels on Mars that look as if water flowed fairly recently from the side of a crater. If the scale is accurate, the longest of these gullies seems to be about 800 meters long, or about half a mile. Much speculation has centered on the idea that these features, which seem to be fairly common, are evidence of water from some underground layer. The questions I have are: if water were to thaw out, wouldn't the extremely thin atmosphere cause it to evaporate immediately? Or if it somehow flowed, wouldn't it quickly freeze again? And yet whatever it is continues for half a mile. Maybe it's really water. Maybe parts of Mars are just saturated with frozen underground water that can thaw out and flow in copious quantities. But here's another possibility I've come up with -- maybe it's fine solid material that happens to be extremely slippery and flows like water. What if it's a powdery volcanic ash layer? Would that flow well enough to look like water? Or could there be a field of big round boulders that periodically come loose and go tumbling downhill? My problem with the water theory is mainly that Mars' atmospheric pressure is so low that I suspect water would boil at a very low temperature. Could anyone who knows the facts do some calculations? Any thoughts the group would like to share would interest me greatly. Thanks, friends -- Joe
Joe, liquid water would be affected more by the atmospheric pressure than the temperature, but other than that you've framed the debate nicely. Unfortunately, we need more data to speculate further. The latest data points to massive quantities of water, frozen as ice in the top few meters of regolith. Too soon to say what caused the channels IMO. C. --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
A new subject for discussion, if anyon'e interested. In pictures like this --
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/12/11/index.html
-- we see evidence of channels on Mars that look as if water flowed fairly recently from the side of a crater. If the scale is accurate, the longest of these gullies seems to be about 800 meters long, or about half a mile. Much speculation has centered on the idea that these features, which seem to be fairly common, are evidence of water from some underground layer.
The questions I have are: if water were to thaw out, wouldn't the extremely thin atmosphere cause it to evaporate immediately? Or if it somehow flowed, wouldn't it quickly freeze again? And yet whatever it is continues for half a mile.
Maybe it's really water. Maybe parts of Mars are just saturated with frozen underground water that can thaw out and flow in copious quantities.
But here's another possibility I've come up with -- maybe it's fine solid material that happens to be extremely slippery and flows like water. What if it's a powdery volcanic ash layer? Would that flow well enough to look like water? Or could there be a field of big round boulders that periodically come loose and go tumbling downhill?
My problem with the water theory is mainly that Mars' atmospheric pressure is so low that I suspect water would boil at a very low temperature. Could anyone who knows the facts do some calculations?
Any thoughts the group would like to share would interest me greatly.
Thanks, friends -- Joe
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
I think the current theory is that it was water but several million years ago when Mars had more atmosphere. Clear Skies Don -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:53 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars closeup pics Joe, liquid water would be affected more by the atmospheric pressure than the temperature, but other than that you've framed the debate nicely. Unfortunately, we need more data to speculate further. The latest data points to massive quantities of water, frozen as ice in the top few meters of regolith. Too soon to say what caused the channels IMO. C. --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
A new subject for discussion, if anyon'e interested. In pictures like this --
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/12/11/index.html
-- we see evidence of channels on Mars that look as if water flowed fairly recently from the side of a crater. If the scale is accurate, the longest of these gullies seems to be about 800 meters long, or about half a mile. Much speculation has centered on the idea that these features, which seem to be fairly common, are evidence of water from some underground layer.
The questions I have are: if water were to thaw out, wouldn't the extremely thin atmosphere cause it to evaporate immediately? Or if it somehow flowed, wouldn't it quickly freeze again? And yet whatever it is continues for half a mile.
Maybe it's really water. Maybe parts of Mars are just saturated with frozen underground water that can thaw out and flow in copious quantities.
But here's another possibility I've come up with -- maybe it's fine solid material that happens to be extremely slippery and flows like water. What if it's a powdery volcanic ash layer? Would that flow well enough to look like water? Or could there be a field of big round boulders that periodically come loose and go tumbling downhill?
My problem with the water theory is mainly that Mars' atmospheric pressure is so low that I suspect water would boil at a very low temperature. Could anyone who knows the facts do some calculations?
Any thoughts the group would like to share would interest me greatly.
Thanks, friends -- Joe
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
The problem I see with that theory is one would expect gullies in a steep crater wall to eventually fill in with dust or collapsing sides. But maybe the craters aren't really as steep as they look in these photos. -- Joe
I think the current theory is that it was water but several million years ago when Mars had more atmosphere. Clear Skies Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:53 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars closeup pics
Joe, liquid water would be affected more by the atmospheric pressure than the temperature, but other than that you've framed the debate nicely. Unfortunately, we need more data to speculate further.
The latest data points to massive quantities of water, frozen as ice in the top few meters of regolith.
Too soon to say what caused the channels IMO.
C.
--- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
A new subject for discussion, if anyon'e interested. In pictures like this --
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/12/11/index.html
-- we see evidence of channels on Mars that look as if water flowed fairly recently from the side of a crater. If the scale is accurate, the longest of these gullies seems to be about 800 meters long, or about half a mile. Much speculation has centered on the idea that these features, which seem to be fairly common, are evidence of water from some underground layer.
The questions I have are: if water were to thaw out, wouldn't the extremely thin atmosphere cause it to evaporate immediately? Or if it somehow flowed, wouldn't it quickly freeze again? And yet whatever it is continues for half a mile.
Maybe it's really water. Maybe parts of Mars are just saturated with frozen underground water that can thaw out and flow in copious quantities.
But here's another possibility I've come up with -- maybe it's fine solid material that happens to be extremely slippery and flows like water. What if it's a powdery volcanic ash layer? Would that flow well enough to look like water? Or could there be a field of big round boulders that periodically come loose and go tumbling downhill?
My problem with the water theory is mainly that Mars' atmospheric pressure is so low that I suspect water would boil at a very low temperature. Could anyone who knows the facts do some calculations?
Any thoughts the group would like to share would interest me greatly.
Thanks, friends -- Joe
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
What about the possibility of geothermally heated underground water that erupts to the surface in sufficent quantities to cause the erosion seen? We have plenty of underground lakes and rivers here on earth, some of it surfacing in geyser form -- perhaps they exist(ed) there as well...? Rich --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
A new subject for discussion, if anyon'e interested. In pictures like this --
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/12/11/index.html
-- we see evidence of channels on Mars that look as if water flowed fairly recently from the side of a crater. If the scale is accurate, the longest of these gullies seems to be about 800 meters long, or about half a mile. Much speculation has centered on the idea that these features, which seem to be fairly common, are evidence of water from some underground layer.
The questions I have are: if water were to thaw out, wouldn't the extremely thin atmosphere cause it to evaporate immediately? Or if it somehow flowed, wouldn't it quickly freeze again? And yet whatever it is continues for half a mile.
Maybe it's really water. Maybe parts of Mars are just saturated with frozen underground water that can thaw out and flow in copious quantities.
But here's another possibility I've come up with -- maybe it's fine solid material that happens to be extremely slippery and flows like water. What if it's a powdery volcanic ash layer? Would that flow well enough to look like water? Or could there be a field of big round boulders that periodically come loose and go tumbling downhill?
My problem with the water theory is mainly that Mars' atmospheric pressure is so low that I suspect water would boil at a very low temperature. Could anyone who knows the facts do some calculations?
Any thoughts the group would like to share would interest me greatly.
Thanks, friends -- Joe
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
That's been a popular recent interpretation, Rich. IIRC, the idea is that occasionally an underground source ruptures through a crater or canyon wall in sufficient volume to flow quite a distance before it all boils away. I think I recall reading that these features were confined to a specific lattitude range and thus possibly tied to a seasonal cycle, or a longer-term climatic cycle related to massive shifting of the inclination of the rotational axis. Which as I recall for Mars can be over 70-degrees (or something like that...) I just hope a geologist can get to Mars before I die. Then we'll start to get some real answers. C. --- Richard Tenney <retenney@yahoo.com> wrote:
What about the possibility of geothermally heated underground water that erupts to the surface in sufficent quantities to cause the erosion seen? We have plenty of underground lakes and rivers here on earth, some of it surfacing in geyser form -- perhaps they exist(ed) there as well...?
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
participants (5)
-
Chuck Hards -
Don J. Colton -
Joe Bauman -
Ken Warner -
Richard Tenney