The statistical improbabilities associated with blind natural selection can be discussed and many authors have done so. This applies to many irreducibly complex components and organisms. As James Cobb pointed out even the atheist Antony Flew has come to the conclusion that the first cells had to be designed. There is more information contained in the an individual cell than in a complete set of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Another analogy is that if you look at an individual cell you will find more complexity and machinery than is found in New York City without the people. Many futile experiments have been conducted trying to create cells through natural processes. Darwin, incorrectly believed, that individual cells were very simple in design. I believe the idea of intelligent design as an explanation for at least the first cells can be readily taught without pointing to any particular religion. It is much more likely than the staggeringly improbable idea that the first cells were created by chance. Huxley, Darwin and Lyle had an agenda: to replace God with a naturalistic explanation as their private not public correspondence attests. They were all believers in the idea that the epitome of natural selection was the white Englishman of the 19th century. They believed blacks, Asiatics and native Americans were sub-human and lower on the evolutionary scale. These concepts were readily adapted by Adolph Hitler to his program of extermination of "sub-humans". Evolutionary ideas applies to societies by dictators including Lenin and Stalin have had horrible results. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Hyatt Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:27 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Hey, Joe. Is there a chance that you'll be writing something to address this? I realize, of course, that you wouldn't wish to editorialize, but are our concerns regarding this issue worthy of an article? On a related matter, I appreciated Don's remarks about problems some scientists have with evolutionary theories and arguments in favor of intelligent design or something akin to it. However, Don, it wasn't clear to me whether or not you favor teaching these positions in the science classroom. For me, the issue isn't whether such opinions are valid or not, the issue is whether they are testable, and therefore, could be investigated scientifically. I don't recall if any of the sources you cited had any thoughts in this regard. If Joe or someone else were to write a piece for publication that highlights the concerns of many of us, I sure hope that you would address an alternative viewpoint. You seem to be more versed in arguments that question evolution than I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Carman" <jcarmen@utah.gov> To: <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com>; <mwkwan@sisna.com> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Thanks for the link Michael. An excellent editorial - and that's | saying a lot for the SL Tribune. | | It is my guess that Buttars didn't receive a warm welcome when he | proposed ID in schools in June and now with the help of Bush, who has let his deeply religious beliefs spill over in to secular/science based matters before, he thinks he will get a warmer reception in the DN (sorry Joe - it is owned by the LDS Church). Too bad the DN doesn't have a Letters to the Editor forum. | | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | | _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

Again, well said Chuck. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:Must strongly disagree, Don. I feel your way of thinking is much more unlikely. It's not science if the first cells were "breathed upon the waters"- so please keep it out of science class, and in the seminary where it belongs. By all means believe it, just don't teach it to my kids as science. Further, it's not pure chance, it's a natural progression, a process of chemistry/bio chemistry (which was ultimately started by an intelligence but which is completely outside of the process at that point). I'm sorry if you can't grasp that conceptually, but I don't feel the need to convince you of my beliefs. I just don't want you trying to convince me of yours in the public school system. I (and others) also disagree with Buttar's assesment that there is no fossil record of the "missing link" - which comes WAY after the "primordeal soup" stage anyway. The fossil record is not complete, certainly, but no one ever made the claim that it is. The understanding of natural history is not complete at present, and no one with a brain in their head would claim it to be just at the time they happen to be living. For as long as there is a human species we will be learning, filling in the blanks of the story of our beginnings and evolution. It's too bad that some people feel a need to marginalize real science in order to validate their spiritual beliefs. --- "Don J. Colton" wrote:

I believe the idea of intelligent design as an explanation for at least the first cells can be readily taught without pointing to any particular religion. It is much more likely than the staggeringly improbable idea that the first cells were created by chance.

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Well Chuck, that brings in another area of science - it's all Relative. Good luck in your evolving! Jim Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: Why, thank you. Not bad for a being evolved from a MUCH lower form, eh? ;) (well, slightly evolved, anyway...) --- South Jordan Mom wrote:

Again, well said Chuck.

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Thanks for mentioning that point, Chuck. I mentioned very early on in this thread that I am a trained and practicing scientist (biochemist and also amateur astronomer), BUTT I am a very spiritual person and have my own belief in God. It is not either/or UNLESS someone says it is (and then it still isn't). Get my premodial drift? You need higher boots to keep out of the 'wrong' goo. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: And while I'm at it, I have to say that I strongly resent some creationists and ID proponents characterizing rank & file evolutionists as "Godless". How dare they? HOW DARE THEY?!! What a terrible, gross misjudgment. This reeks of the dark side of fundamentalism. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

Good to have you back, Chuck. Love your insight, explanation and commentary! Jim South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote: Again, well said Chuck. Chuck Hards wrote:Must strongly disagree, Don. I feel your way of thinking is much more unlikely. It's not science if the first cells were "breathed upon the waters"- so please keep it out of science class, and in the seminary where it belongs. By all means believe it, just don't teach it to my kids as science. Further, it's not pure chance, it's a natural progression, a process of chemistry/bio chemistry (which was ultimately started by an intelligence but which is completely outside of the process at that point). I'm sorry if you can't grasp that conceptually, but I don't feel the need to convince you of my beliefs. I just don't want you trying to convince me of yours in the public school system. I (and others) also disagree with Buttar's assesment that there is no fossil record of the "missing link" - which comes WAY after the "primordeal soup" stage anyway. The fossil record is not complete, certainly, but no one ever made the claim that it is. The understanding of natural history is not complete at present, and no one with a brain in their head would claim it to be just at the time they happen to be living. For as long as there is a human species we will be learning, filling in the blanks of the story of our beginnings and evolution. It's too bad that some people feel a need to marginalize real science in order to validate their spiritual beliefs. --- "Don J. Colton" wrote:

I believe the idea of intelligent design as an explanation for at least the first cells can be readily taught without pointing to any particular religion. It is much more likely than the staggeringly improbable idea that the first cells were created by chance.

____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com