Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846. Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered. Anyone care to join me? And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10 Grins, patrick
While I didn't exactly laugh out loud, Doonesbury really made me smile. Saturday I spoke with some folks from Spanish Fork who are members of the local religious majority. We had an interesting discussion about this very issue. I found it a lot harder to speak as a Park employee than I thought it would be. Lots of fun, though. Never boring. Even with clouds. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:47 AM To: utah astronomy utah astronomy listserve Subject: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846. Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered. Anyone care to join me? And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10 Grins, patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3757 - Release Date: 07/10/11
And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10 The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism. In Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail. Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism. Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin." I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms. Clear Skies, Don -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:47 AM To: utah astronomy utah astronomy listserve Subject: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846. Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered. Anyone care to join me? Grins, patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in. Jo http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703... "On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation. "What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students. They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race." On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org. That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively." When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...) Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism. In Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
Boy, we're into it again. But then, why stop a good thing? I'd like to say that as a believing Christian, I find the stories in Genesis harder to swallow than the proverbial camel. (Matthew 23:24) Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also,from the funnies Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in. Jo http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703 250340/1001&nav_category= "On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation. "What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students. They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race." On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org. That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively." When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...) Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11
I believe the rise in global warming is due to the decrease in pirates. His Noodly Appendage has touched me. http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ Main Site: http://www.venganza.org Frankly, I believe all theories should be taught. Dismissing anything out of hand without investigation is short sighted, to say the least...I find various early civilization's creation views absolutely fascinating. Dan On Jul 11, 2011, at 1:21 PM, Kim wrote:
Boy, we're into it again. But then, why stop a good thing? I'd like to say that as a believing Christian, I find the stories in Genesis harder to swallow than the proverbial camel. (Matthew 23:24)
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also,from the funnies
Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in.
Jo
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703 250340/1001&nav_category=
"On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation.
"What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students.
They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race."
On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org.
That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively."
When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...)
Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
I love the stories too, as just that - stories. As factual events, well, call me a skeptic. I'm skeptical also of creation stories involving coyotes, large persons, mythical heroes, bolts of lightning, snakes, rays of light, UFO's, aliens... Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Holmes Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:38 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also,from the funnies I believe the rise in global warming is due to the decrease in pirates. His Noodly Appendage has touched me. http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ Main Site: http://www.venganza.org Frankly, I believe all theories should be taught. Dismissing anything out of hand without investigation is short sighted, to say the least...I find various early civilization's creation views absolutely fascinating. Dan On Jul 11, 2011, at 1:21 PM, Kim wrote:
Boy, we're into it again. But then, why stop a good thing? I'd like to say that as a believing Christian, I find the stories in Genesis harder to swallow than the proverbial camel. (Matthew 23:24)
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also,from the funnies
Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in.
Jo
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703
250340/1001&nav_category=
"On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation.
"What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students.
They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race."
On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org.
That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively."
When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...)
Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11
Jo, You still missed the point. In the Washington case, the teacher was not fired for bringing up Genesis but for bringing up problems with standard Neo-Darwinism posed by Stephen Jay Gould, the prominent Paleontologist. Berlinski and Meyer do NOT discuss the bible or believe in a young earth. Berlinski is an agnostic. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in. Jo http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703 250340/1001&nav_category= "On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation. "What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students. They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race." On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org. That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively." When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...) Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Jo, Sorry, I spoke too soon not realizing you were referring to the comment below your comment. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Don J. Colton Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 3:50 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Jo, You still missed the point. In the Washington case, the teacher was not fired for bringing up Genesis but for bringing up problems with standard Neo-Darwinism posed by Stephen Jay Gould, the prominent Paleontologist. Berlinski and Meyer do NOT discuss the bible or believe in a young earth. Berlinski is an agnostic. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in. Jo http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703 250340/1001&nav_category= "On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation. "What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students. They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race." On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org. That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively." When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...) Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
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Perhaps the firing had to do with the inference of Nazi's and Genocide in the same breath as Darwinism. I had 4 years of biology never once did we discuss Hitler.
Evolution Theory is still evolving and evidence supporting growing. It does seem settled curriculum at accredited colleges and universities. Jo,
You still missed the point. In the Washington case, the teacher was not fired for bringing up Genesis but for bringing up problems with standard Neo-Darwinism posed by Stephen Jay Gould, the prominent Paleontologist. Berlinski and Meyer do NOT discuss the bible or believe in a young earth. Berlinski is an agnostic.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:04 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies
Just to a add to what Don said. As you can see from the link below, the teacher was not fired for teaching that Darwin theories have scientifically credible opposition, but for trying to put the story of genesis in front of the class as an alternative view. I suspect that we all would get just as upset if they taught the American Indian views of the beginning of life, in science class, as a legitimate alternative. I am fine with learning new science, and making discoveries that that show us where the old science missed the boat. The emphasis is on research and discovery. As soon as we make our religious (God, idol, belief) a God of the Gaps, we diminish the value of our beliefs, and the power of that which we believe in.
Jo
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0107/703 250340/1001&nav_category=
"On Wednesday, March 14, eight days into a new job teaching biology at Sisters High School, Kris Helphinstine showed a class of freshman and sophomore students pictures of naked corpses, a Nazi swastika and Charles Darwin in a PowerPoint presentation.
"What do these pictures have in common?" the 27-year-old part-time teacher asked the 30 students.
They listened as Helphinstine gave a roughly hourlong presentation, explaining how the Third Reich perverted evolution and eugenics to slaughter Jews and Gypsies in death camps to protect the "superior race."
On the Monday and Tuesday before giving the PowerPoint presentation, Helphinstine had given the students supplemental material that included an essay promoting creationism and links to answersingenesis.org.
That Web site is "dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, and to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively."
When parents found out, some quickly complained. As a result, Helphinstine was put on leave Friday, March 16, and the Sisters School Board voted to fire him last Monday. Only board member Steve Rudinsky opposed the measure, saying the teacher should have received a second chance." (And the article goes on...)
Quoting "Don J. Colton" <djcolton@piol.com>:
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism.
In
Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
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Don, First, our environment is not a closed system. It’s an open system. Second, all you have to do is put forward a naturalistic theoretic construct that explains the data better than Darwinism and I’ll look at your proposal. No religion, no designer, please. Do you really think that when the Human Genome Project got under way biologists sat around and examined the merits of intelligent design as a working thesis for the project. Exactly, what is a created kind? Taxonomy would be a shambles under an intelligent design model. The fossil record is, exactly, what one would expect from an evolutionary point of view. There’s no rabbit fossils in Devonian strata, paraphrasing J. B. S. Haldane’s famous aphorism. If there was, this finding would completely invalidate natural selection. Under intelligent design, wouldn’t this be a common occurrence? Why wouldn’t mammals be created before Devonian fishes or Cambrian fauna? If you’re one of those that believes Earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old, you’ve really got some explaining to do. Molecular biologic data completely validate natural selection. Most organisms are jury-rigged affairs that share genetic material, enzymatic pathways, etc. You share 50% of your DNA with yeast. A large percentage of your DNA is viral in origin. Pretty convincing, even without all the other evidence, that all life on this planet is related through common descent. No matter how you cut it, creationism or intelligent design or whatever you want to call it is religion. It is not science and we can not bend the definition of science to accommodate this “theory”. Dave Gary On Jul 11, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Don J. Colton wrote:
And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism. In Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:47 AM To: utah astronomy utah astronomy listserve Subject: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies
Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846.
Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered.
Anyone care to join me?
Grins,
patrick
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
"First, our environment is not a closed system. It's an open system." Neo-Darwinism assumes a closed system otherwise you have new information coming into it and chance is not the only factor involved. That is why Fred Hoyle proposed transpermia and even Richard Dawkins has not ruled that out. "The fossil record is, exactly, what one would expect from an evolutionary point of view." Unfortunately the fossil record does not support a gradualist view - the Cambrian Explosion is a good example - one of the areas where the Chinese are very critical of the gradualist viewpoint as well as was the late Stephen Jay Gould. See Berlinski's original article at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&printerFriend ly=true&id=130 and more from the author at http://www.davidberlinski.org/. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gary Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies Don, First, our environment is not a closed system. It's an open system. Second, all you have to do is put forward a naturalistic theoretic construct that explains the data better than Darwinism and I'll look at your proposal. No religion, no designer, please. Do you really think that when the Human Genome Project got under way biologists sat around and examined the merits of intelligent design as a working thesis for the project. Exactly, what is a created kind? Taxonomy would be a shambles under an intelligent design model. The fossil record is, exactly, what one would expect from an evolutionary point of view. There's no rabbit fossils in Devonian strata, paraphrasing J. B. S. Haldane's famous aphorism. If there was, this finding would completely invalidate natural selection. Under intelligent design, wouldn't this be a common occurrence? Why wouldn't mammals be created before Devonian fishes or Cambrian fauna? If you're one of those that believes Earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old, you've really got some explaining to do. Molecular biologic data completely validate natural selection. Most organisms are jury-rigged affairs that share genetic material, enzymatic pathways, etc. You share 50% of your DNA with yeast. A large percentage of your DNA is viral in origin. Pretty convincing, even without all the other evidence, that all life on this planet is related through common descent. No matter how you cut it, creationism or intelligent design or whatever you want to call it is religion. It is not science and we can not bend the definition of science to accommodate this "theory". Dave Gary On Jul 11, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Don J. Colton wrote:
And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism. In Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:47 AM To: utah astronomy utah astronomy listserve Subject: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies
Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846.
Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered.
Anyone care to join me?
Grins,
patrick
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
I defer to Mr A Einstein, thought by many to have a number of smarts, (sorry, Dan--no noodles) who said, "Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind." Another I like is his also: "All religions, arts, and sciences are branches of the same tree." 'nuff said. Not much to do w/Neptune....... lh On 7/11/2011 1:36 PM, Dave Gary wrote:
Don,
First, our environment is not a closed system. ItÂ’s an open system. Second, all you have to do is put forward a naturalistic theoretic construct that explains the data better than Darwinism and IÂ’ll look at your proposal. No religion, no designer, please.
Do you really think that when the Human Genome Project got under way biologists sat around and examined the merits of intelligent design as a working thesis for the project. Exactly, what is a created kind? Taxonomy would be a shambles under an intelligent design model. The fossil record is, exactly, what one would expect from an evolutionary point of view. ThereÂ’s no rabbit fossils in Devonian strata, paraphrasing J. B. S. HaldaneÂ’s famous aphorism. If there was, this finding would completely invalidate natural selection. Under intelligent design, wouldnÂ’t this be a common occurrence? Why wouldnÂ’t mammals be created before Devonian fishes or Cambrian fauna? If youÂ’re one of those that believes Earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old, youÂ’ve really got some explaining to do.
Molecular biologic data completely validate natural selection. Most organisms are jury-rigged affairs that share genetic material, enzymatic pathways, etc. You share 50% of your DNA with yeast. A large percentage of your DNA is viral in origin. Pretty convincing, even without all the other evidence, that all life on this planet is related through common descent.
No matter how you cut it, creationism or intelligent design or whatever you want to call it is religion. It is not science and we can not bend the definition of science to accommodate this “theory”.
Dave Gary
On Jul 11, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Don J. Colton wrote:
And here (totally unrelated), from yesterday's funnies: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/10
The Doonesbury cartoon, although funny, perpetuates the myth that Neo-Darwinism is settled science and that the opposition believes a fairy tale. Most of the new laws passed in several states allow the biology teachers or students to present other competing ideas to Neo-Darwinism. In Washington State a biology teacher was fired for bringing up problems with Neo-Darwinism although he taught the theory in detail.
Recent advances in information theory, a product to some extent of quantum mechanics, have called into question many of the cherished ideas of Neo-Darwinism. One of the main tenets of information theory is that in a closed system the amount of information cannot increase. David Berlinski, a celebrated mathematician and an agnostic, wrote a seminal article called "The Deniable Darwin" in Commentary Magazine that was later developed into a book by the same name. Stephen C. Meyer has written a recent controversial book, "Signature in the Cell - DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design" that raises many additional problems with Neo-Darwinism.
Jun-Yuan Chen, Research Professor Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, said recently: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin."
I think we need to have a free and open exchange of ideas in high school biology as well as all other classes. Thomas S. Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", notes how difficult it is for scientists to give up cherished paradigms.
Clear Skies,
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:47 AM To: utah astronomy utah astronomy listserve Subject: [Utah-astronomy] SPOC for 1 Neptune orbit? Also, from the funnies
Tomorrow (Tuesday) finds Neptune 1 Neptunian year since it's discovery and located almost exactly where it was when discovered in 1846.
Weather permitting I plan on going to SPOC about midnight tonight and using the refractor to spot Neptune and then to find the exact spot where it was on the night it was discovered.
Anyone care to join me?
Grins,
patrick
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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participants (8)
-
Daniel Holmes -
Dave Gary -
Don J. Colton -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Josephine Grahn -
Kim -
Larry Holmes -
Patrick Wiggins