After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics. My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here: 1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument. 2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead. 3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes. So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought. So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities. The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant. Additional perspective: Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.). So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do. Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell. The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it. Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts. -- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
Jerry: I simply would like to thank you for your contribution. Steve
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:29:30 -0700 From: jfoote@scopecraft.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Thanks, Jerry. I appreciate hearing your views. They echo many I have heard from others in the area, and mine as well. ________________________________ From: Jerry Foote <jfoote@scopecraft.com> To: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:29 AM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics. My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here: 1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument. 2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead. 3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes. So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought. So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities. The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant. Additional perspective: Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.). So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do. Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell. The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it. Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts. -- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Jerry, Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years. I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics. My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here: 1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument. 2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead. 3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes. So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought. So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities. The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant. Additional perspective: Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.). So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do. Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell. The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it. Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts. -- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Don, are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match. Erik Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Tongue firmly in cheek.... This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside.
I had a nice dog walk along the parkway, no wind makes a big difference. BTW, the Jordan River level has been greatly reduced, I imagine summer long flooded areas are no longer flooded.
Tongue firmly in cheek....
This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside.
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Here, here! Twitter is a really good alternative to bulletin board posts. Tweet to your heart's content. Mat -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Grahn Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 6:39 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Posting limits Tongue firmly in cheek.... This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions and are intended only for the addressee(s). The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice.Healthcare@siemens.com Thank you
Censorship? Mom is wrong. On Dec 7, 2011 4:39 PM, "Josephine Grahn" <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
Tongue firmly in cheek....
This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside.
______________________________**_________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.**xmission.com<Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-**astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/**main.php<http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php>
More like keeping the topic from getting stale and boring From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Posting limits Censorship? Mom is wrong. On Dec 7, 2011 4:39 PM, "Josephine Grahn" <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
Tongue firmly in cheek....
This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside.
______________________________**_________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.**xmission.com<Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-**astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/**main.php<http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php>
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On 12/8/11, M Wilson <astro_outwest@yahoo.com> wrote:
More like keeping the topic from getting stale and boring
Or it could have the effect of stretching a contentious topic out over a longer period of days. A limit might have unintended consequenses. If a topic is really interesting for most subscribers, why deliberately throw cold water on it? I think moribund topics have a habit of disappearing naturally anyway. Self-censorship is the best, either on the part of the contentious poster (yeah, right,lol), or the subscriber just not clicking on messages with topics of little or no interest to them. I employ that latter method, myself.
Yet, Jo gets another gold star :) Tongue in cheek of course ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josephine Grahn" <bsi@xmission.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 4:38:37 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Posting limits Tongue firmly in cheek.... This is your mother speaking. We need a new rule around here.. No more than ten posts per person per day.... Now, turn off the computer and go play outside. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
OMG as the kids say. Patrick are you ready for a world record that will stand for years? I said "did you see the new issue of Reflector"?
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:21:49 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Don,
are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match.
Erik
Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
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Erik, The situation I mentioned is just reinjection of water from one producing formation into another depleted formation. A very routine process. However, I need to respond to some of the things you may have heard about fracking. 1. The technology is not new and is well understood. The first fracs were done in the late 40's and early 50's. During the 1980's several thousand fracs were performed and during the 1990's and up to the present day several hundred thousand wells have been fracked. 2. During this whole period there is not one documented case of frac fluid getting into a water aquifer. Some of the reasons for this are that the formations fracked are almost always deeper than 5,000 feet, well below most fresh water aquifers, and government agencies require that the fresh water zones, which are typically 1500 feet or shallower, be sealed off by cementing surface casing through them. Frac fluids are not flammable and some fracs consist only of fresh water and sand. Others contain cross-linked gels and other chemicals. 3. There are cases of methane getting into drinking water. This can be caused by not having proper integrity in the surface casing and a leak developing in the production casing and gas leaking into the aquifer but this has nothing to do with the frac. Another common cause of methane in drinking water is caused by culinary water wells that are drilled in areas of shallow coals. After producing gas free water for a period the coals "dewater" and produce methane which gets into the water supply. This is a very common occurrence particularly in areas like Wyoming, Utah, Pennsylvania and West Virginia which have shallow coals associated with fresh water aquifers. 4. The frac basically enhances the producibility of gas from the existing gas reservoir. 5. Much of the hysteria about fracking has been promoted by organizations like the Sierra Club which opposes the drilling of ANY new wells ANYWHERE in the U. S. They can hardly be objective. 6. Natural gas contains no pollutants and is far preferable to coal or oil from any environmental viewpoint. It also has the smallest production footprint. The United States has sufficient natural gas resources to become energy independent and I believe it is the height of folly not to develop them. Don -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 4:22 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM Don, are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match. Erik Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on
foot.
Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
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Well Don,
What you are saying seems to be disputed by the EPA and others and of course environmental groups. The claim is that there have been hundreds of cases of contamination. I saw a news program about an area where the water was ruled "safe", a homeowner demonstrated how he could start his tap water on fire, natural gas was in the water. The EPA should do their lawful tasks of insuring energy is extracted without harm to the public. link http://www.epa.gov/hydraulicfracture/ Erik Erik,
The situation I mentioned is just reinjection of water from one producing formation into another depleted formation. A very routine process.
However, I need to respond to some of the things you may have heard about fracking.
1. The technology is not new and is well understood. The first fracs were done in the late 40's and early 50's. During the 1980's several thousand fracs were performed and during the 1990's and up to the present day several hundred thousand wells have been fracked.
2. During this whole period there is not one documented case of frac fluid getting into a water aquifer. Some of the reasons for this are that the formations fracked are almost always deeper than 5,000 feet, well below most fresh water aquifers, and government agencies require that the fresh water zones, which are typically 1500 feet or shallower, be sealed off by cementing surface casing through them. Frac fluids are not flammable and some fracs consist only of fresh water and sand. Others contain cross-linked gels and other chemicals.
3. There are cases of methane getting into drinking water. This can be caused by not having proper integrity in the surface casing and a leak developing in the production casing and gas leaking into the aquifer but this has nothing to do with the frac. Another common cause of methane in drinking water is caused by culinary water wells that are drilled in areas of shallow coals. After producing gas free water for a period the coals "dewater" and produce methane which gets into the water supply. This is a very common occurrence particularly in areas like Wyoming, Utah, Pennsylvania and West Virginia which have shallow coals associated with fresh water aquifers.
4. The frac basically enhances the producibility of gas from the existing gas reservoir.
5. Much of the hysteria about fracking has been promoted by organizations like the Sierra Club which opposes the drilling of ANY new wells ANYWHERE in the U. S. They can hardly be objective.
6. Natural gas contains no pollutants and is far preferable to coal or oil from any environmental viewpoint. It also has the smallest production footprint. The United States has sufficient natural gas resources to become energy independent and I believe it is the height of folly not to develop them.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 4:22 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Don,
are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match.
Erik
Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on
foot.
Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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From your link: EPA concluded that there was little to no risk of fracturing fluid contaminating underground sources of drinking water during hydraulic fracturing of coalbed methane production wells. EPA retained the right, however, to conduct additional studies in the future. As a precautionary measure, the Agency also entered into a Memorandum of Agreement in 2003 (PDF) (9 pp., 331 K, about PDF) with companies that conduct hydraulic fracturing of CBM wells to eliminate use of diesel fuel in fracturing fluids.
There is certainly more concern with coalbed methane fracturing since it is in fresh water aquifers but most of the coalbed fracs just use fresh water. I was primarily speaking of the large natural gas fracs in shale zones at depth. Your link mentions that the EPA is studying the impact but I still have not heard of any documented case of frac fluids contaminating the water supply. There are cases of drilling fluids and frac fluids being spilled from trucks and concerns about the amount of water used creating shortages in the local water supply. I also believe contamination of underground sources of drinking water and surface waters resulting from spills and faulty well construction is a valid concern. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:09 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Well Don,
What you are saying seems to be disputed by the EPA and others and of course environmental groups. The claim is that there have been hundreds of cases of contamination. I saw a news program about an area where the water was ruled "safe", a homeowner demonstrated how he could start his tap water on fire, natural gas was in the water. The EPA should do their lawful tasks of insuring energy is extracted without harm to the public. link http://www.epa.gov/hydraulicfracture/ Erik Erik,
The situation I mentioned is just reinjection of water from one producing formation into another depleted formation. A very routine
process.
However, I need to respond to some of the things you may have heard about fracking.
1. The technology is not new and is well understood. The first fracs were done in the late 40's and early 50's. During the 1980's several thousand fracs were performed and during the 1990's and up to the present day several hundred thousand wells have been fracked.
2. During this whole period there is not one documented case of frac fluid getting into a water aquifer. Some of the reasons for this are that the formations fracked are almost always deeper than 5,000 feet, well below most fresh water aquifers, and government agencies require that the fresh water zones, which are typically 1500 feet or shallower, be sealed off by cementing surface casing through them. Frac fluids are not flammable and some fracs consist only of fresh water and sand. Others contain cross-linked gels and other chemicals.
3. There are cases of methane getting into drinking water. This can be caused by not having proper integrity in the surface casing and a leak developing in the production casing and gas leaking into the aquifer but this has nothing to do with the frac. Another common cause of methane in drinking water is caused by culinary water wells that are drilled in areas of shallow coals. After producing gas free water for a period the coals "dewater" and produce methane which gets into the water supply. This is a very common occurrence particularly in areas like Wyoming, Utah, Pennsylvania and West Virginia which have shallow coals associated with fresh water aquifers.
4. The frac basically enhances the producibility of gas from the existing gas reservoir.
5. Much of the hysteria about fracking has been promoted by organizations like the Sierra Club which opposes the drilling of ANY new wells ANYWHERE in the U. S. They can hardly be objective.
6. Natural gas contains no pollutants and is far preferable to coal or oil from any environmental viewpoint. It also has the smallest production footprint. The United States has sufficient natural gas resources to become energy independent and I believe it is the height of folly not to develop them.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 4:22 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Don,
are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match.
Erik
Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on
foot.
Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property
taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta
plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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During a time the EPA had to be sued to enforce regulations. My twin is involved with litigation in environmental law, cases form the 60's remain unresolved and facts remain disputed. The EPA waxes and wanes as far as environmental protection goes. The Bush Era was not noted for EPA action rather inaction.
From your link: EPA concluded that there was little to no risk of
fracturing fluid contaminating underground sources of drinking water during hydraulic fracturing of coalbed methane production wells. EPA retained the right, however, to conduct additional studies in the future. As a precautionary measure, the Agency also entered into a Memorandum of Agreement in 2003 (PDF) (9 pp., 331 K, about PDF) with companies that conduct hydraulic fracturing of CBM wells to eliminate use of diesel fuel in fracturing fluids.
There is certainly more concern with coalbed methane fracturing since it is in fresh water aquifers but most of the coalbed fracs just use fresh water. I was primarily speaking of the large natural gas fracs in shale zones at depth.
Your link mentions that the EPA is studying the impact but I still have not heard of any documented case of frac fluids contaminating the water supply. There are cases of drilling fluids and frac fluids being spilled from trucks and concerns about the amount of water used creating shortages in the local water supply. I also believe contamination of underground sources of drinking water and surface waters resulting from spills and faulty well construction is a valid concern.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:09 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Well Don,
What you are saying seems to be disputed by the EPA and others and of course environmental groups. The claim is that there have been hundreds of cases of contamination. I saw a news program about an area where the water was ruled "safe", a homeowner demonstrated how he could start his tap water on fire, natural gas was in the water.
The EPA should do their lawful tasks of insuring energy is extracted without harm to the public.
link http://www.epa.gov/hydraulicfracture/
Erik
Erik,
The situation I mentioned is just reinjection of water from one producing formation into another depleted formation. A very routine
process.
However, I need to respond to some of the things you may have heard about fracking.
1. The technology is not new and is well understood. The first fracs were done in the late 40's and early 50's. During the 1980's several thousand fracs were performed and during the 1990's and up to the present day several hundred thousand wells have been fracked.
2. During this whole period there is not one documented case of frac fluid getting into a water aquifer. Some of the reasons for this are that the formations fracked are almost always deeper than 5,000 feet, well below most fresh water aquifers, and government agencies require that the fresh water zones, which are typically 1500 feet or shallower, be sealed off by cementing surface casing through them. Frac fluids are not flammable and some fracs consist only of fresh water and sand. Others contain cross-linked gels and other chemicals.
3. There are cases of methane getting into drinking water. This can be caused by not having proper integrity in the surface casing and a leak developing in the production casing and gas leaking into the aquifer but this has nothing to do with the frac. Another common cause of methane in drinking water is caused by culinary water wells that are drilled in areas of shallow coals. After producing gas free water for a period the coals "dewater" and produce methane which gets into the water supply. This is a very common occurrence particularly in areas like Wyoming, Utah, Pennsylvania and West Virginia which have shallow coals associated with fresh water aquifers.
4. The frac basically enhances the producibility of gas from the existing gas reservoir.
5. Much of the hysteria about fracking has been promoted by organizations like the Sierra Club which opposes the drilling of ANY new wells ANYWHERE in the U. S. They can hardly be objective.
6. Natural gas contains no pollutants and is far preferable to coal or oil from any environmental viewpoint. It also has the smallest production footprint. The United States has sufficient natural gas resources to become energy independent and I believe it is the height of folly not to develop them.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 4:22 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
Don,
are you referring to "fracting" IE injecting steam to get natural gas. Where this practice has been allowed drinking water has been poisoned, even to the point where people can light their tap water with a match.
Erik
Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on
foot.
Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property
taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta
plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Way to go, EPA!
http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/water/fracking/ Jerry,
Thanks for your input. We have run into government obstructionism many times including most recently waiting two years to get a routine water injection permit on the Shoshone Arapaho Reservation in Wyoming. All of the approvals were in place and we had full support from the tribes but the EPA said they were backlogged two years.
I think many of these issues need to be handled at the local level.
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Foote Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:30 AM To: Utah-Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine, GSENM & BLM
After reading all of the rhetoric that has been posted on this list concering these topics, I thought that it is time to hear from someone that lives in the immediate area and has first hand knowledge on the topics.
My wife & I moved to Kanab, Kane County, less that a week after the designation of 75% of Kane County as the Grand Staircase Ecalante National Monument (GSENM). There was considerable opposition to this designation in this community. As others have posted, the designation was done in a very underhanded way by Clinton. But what does this designation actually mean for those of us living here:
1. Over 900 roads on this area were closed to motorized traffic. This includes ranchers that can't access their grazing allotments. The only way that the interior of this area can be seen is either on horse or on foot. Of course this is a desert so travel in the interior of the Monument means carrying the necessary water for the trip. Humans need at least a gallon of water per day in the summer heat so a 4 day back packing trip means that you need to carry about 28 pounds of water for the trip. Not counting what your horse needs. In 4 days you can't even reach the central areas of the Monument.
2. There has been many lawsuits over these road closures, mostly brought on by non-local groups. Luckily, recently, the 10th District Court of Appeals has ruled that these outside parties do not have standing and has dismissed their claims. This ruling has now allowed Kane County to file quiet title claim on these 900 roads that have been closed for 12 years. The action will not come anytime soon but at least they are moving ahead.
3. As some of you might know, The US government has a program called PILT. PILT stands for Payment In Lieu of Taxes. It is the recognition that local government does not receive property taxes on land controlled or owned by the Federal Government. Kane County normally receives. In 2010 Kane County received $997,681 for the 2,301,878 acres of federally controlled land in the county( 85% of the county land). That amounts to about $0.43/acre. I don't know about the rest of you but for my lot I pay about $550/acre in taxes. The Fed's are getting a good deal. Now on top of that great deal the County has been told that PILT payments will probably not be paid this year. The deficit will be made up by the local residents as an increase in their property taxes.
So how can the County generate revenue? We are primarily a tourist county with a considerable amount of our lively-hood coming from tourist activities including lodging, food and fuel. With the Monument closed to motorized traffic tour groups are out of business, motels don't fill with people that want to see the Monument and fuel isn't bought.
So what does this have to do with The Alton Mine? The mine will be a source of both jobs and tax revenue. The light pollution will be negligible, Travel in the area, check the lay of the land. There are is a high mountain with trees between Bryce and Alton. The light dome that will come from the Alton Mine is very minor and will probably be much less that that from the other local communities.
The coal is destined for the Delta power plant. All modern power plants don't just serve communities, they pump power into the national grid which we ALL draw from. The same is true for the Delta plant.
Additional perspective:
Most recently the Department of the Interior under Salazar has closed the Arizona Strip area (that portion of Arizona that lies north of the Colorado River) to mining for a three year period to study the environmental impacts of mining. Well this area has the richest US supply of Uranium. At the end of the three year period a decision will be made by Interior as to whether to continue the closure for another 30 years. Read that as no jobs or economic income. If it remains closed then we will need to rely of foreign sources of Uranium to fuel the necessary nuclear power plants. Because yes, nuclear power will become the best alternative between other sources of energy. Coal runs out and we can all agree that it is dirty and environmentally bad. Wind and Solar won't make it for obvious reasons ( economics, KWH/acre, etc.).
So lets put these two facts together: No coal mining and no Uranium mining. So our dependance on foreign oil for energy just increased. I know we just need to conserve. That is a great thing for all of you to do but I'm still going to run my computer, light my house, cook my meals and enjoy my way of life. The consumption of energy has brought about the greatest industrialized nation with the highest productivity in the world. Do we need to be highly productive, I believe we do.
Now about the BLM. You really need to live under the control of the local BLM offices to see the underhanded tricks they use to maintain their control of our land. An example: There are a number of roads on BLM land that have recently had "Administrative" signs added to them. What this means no one knows and the local Kanab Field Office will not say. These roads have been open to all traffic for better that 50 years but now they have these signs. The suspicion of the locals is that anyone not knowledgeable of these roads will come across this sign and not travel the road. Presto after a few years the BLM will close the road unilaterally saying" the road is not used so we will close it". Is this what will happen? Only time will tell.
The process that the BLM uses to handle the transportation plan on Public Lands is capricious. If you go the their office and ask questions about access to areas the answer is always that it is closed. When one asks to see the document that closed an area they can't produce it.
Am I biased? Yes I am. I live here and enjoy this land. Do I ride my ATV anywhere I like? NO. I'm a responsible rider as are all others I ride with. I do take considerable issue with people outside of the area trying to make rules they know nothing about and are ignorant of the true facts.
-- Jerry Foote ScopeCaft, Inc. www.scopecraft.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
participants (10)
-
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
Don J. Colton -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Hutchings, Mat (H USA) -
jcarman6＠q.com -
Jerry Foote -
Josephine Grahn -
M Wilson -
Steve Fisher