Brent, Exit 6: Yes, that is where the road goes nearly straight north to Lakeside (where the railroad crosses the lake from Ogden and reaches the western shore of the Great Salt Lake). The road is labeled "Frontage Road" on Google Earth. The arrow is on the hill about a mile due north of the interchange. Exit 77: Yes, that is where SR 196 (the Skull Valley road) joins I-80 at Timpie Springs. The arrow is beside the road going out to the Springs and is northeast of the interchange. I'm sure we are both talking about the same two of arrows. According to the GIS Arrow Project map, the main route to LAX goes out the south end of the SL valley. The south tail of the arrow at Lakepoint must be for an alternate route to LAX. I assume that tail is intended to connect with the arrow east of Stockton that Patrick found and is on the GIS map. Did you try the Bing.com/maps for better aerial views of the arrows? Ed ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 08:57:53 -0700 [09:57:53 AM MDT] From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Reply-To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Headers: Show All Headers | Show Mailing List Information Ed, Are these the arrows you are referring to: Exit 62 - the Eagle Range exit Exit 77 - near the salt evaporation ponds? The Lakepoint arrow seco0nd shaft may be from LA, but then what are the other arrows that extend south through the Salt Lake valley? Lakepoint shows an alternate route, perhaps? Brent
I did try Bing maps. There is better resolution, I agree. However, the arrow at exit 62 looks to point right at the arrow at exit 77. The arrow at exit 77 does point a bit north of Lakepoint, but not that far. I could give the 1930s surveyors a bit of slack, and over that distance an airplane should be able to connect the dots. Neither appears to me to point to Ogden. All of this assumes that Bing keeps north at the very top of the image. Did you notice the color paint on the arrow at exit 77? It looks to be red with a dark blue border. That is different than the yellow they were supposed to be painted. Patrick, is that paint still there? Brent From: Ed <utnatsedj1@xmission.com> To: Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Brent, Exit 6: Yes, that is where the road goes nearly straight north to Lakeside (where the railroad crosses the lake from Ogden and reaches the western shore of the Great Salt Lake). The road is labeled "Frontage Road" on Google Earth. The arrow is on the hill about a mile due north of the interchange. Exit 77: Yes, that is where SR 196 (the Skull Valley road) joins I-80 at Timpie Springs. The arrow is beside the road going out to the Springs and is northeast of the interchange. I'm sure we are both talking about the same two of arrows. According to the GIS Arrow Project map, the main route to LAX goes out the south end of the SL valley. The south tail of the arrow at Lakepoint must be for an alternate route to LAX. I assume that tail is intended to connect with the arrow east of Stockton that Patrick found and is on the GIS map. Did you try the Bing.com/maps for better aerial views of the arrows? Ed
Concerning the "frontage road", it runs next to the train tracks on the north side. Late last century I wandered on to it at Lakeside proper while bird watching and decided to keep driving until I found a space wide enough to turn around. I ended up in Lucin before I could get off. It was quite a ride and thankfully no train came by while I was stuck so close to the tracks. Since then there was a locked gate installed to keep such adventurers as myself from doing it again. DT ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows I did try Bing maps. There is better resolution, I agree. However, the arrow at exit 62 looks to point right at the arrow at exit 77. The arrow at exit 77 does point a bit north of Lakepoint, but not that far. I could give the 1930s surveyors a bit of slack, and over that distance an airplane should be able to connect the dots. Neither appears to me to point to Ogden. All of this assumes that Bing keeps north at the very top of the image. Did you notice the color paint on the arrow at exit 77? It looks to be red with a dark blue border. That is different than the yellow they were supposed to be painted. Patrick, is that paint still there? Brent From: Ed <utnatsedj1@xmission.com> To: Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Brent, Exit 6: Yes, that is where the road goes nearly straight north to Lakeside (where the railroad crosses the lake from Ogden and reaches the western shore of the Great Salt Lake). The road is labeled "Frontage Road" on Google Earth. The arrow is on the hill about a mile due north of the interchange. Exit 77: Yes, that is where SR 196 (the Skull Valley road) joins I-80 at Timpie Springs. The arrow is beside the road going out to the Springs and is northeast of the interchange. I'm sure we are both talking about the same two of arrows. According to the GIS Arrow Project map, the main route to LAX goes out the south end of the SL valley. The south tail of the arrow at Lakepoint must be for an alternate route to LAX. I assume that tail is intended to connect with the arrow east of Stockton that Patrick found and is on the GIS map. Did you try the Bing.com/maps for better aerial views of the arrows? Ed _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Wow, there's a small unimproved airstrip about 3 miles east-north-east of Lucin. I wonder what the story behind that is?
Sounds like a great place to set up, assuming a drug-running plane doesn't come roaring in some midnight when an astronomer is set up. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Wow, there's a small unimproved airstrip about 3 miles east-north-east of Lucin. I wonder what the story behind that is? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
There's some limited agriculture going-on west of Lucin; I'll bet the dirt strip is for crop-dusters. Any bets that it's a polygamist farming community? On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
Sounds like a great place to set up, assuming a drug-running plane doesn't come roaring in some midnight when an astronomer is set up. -- Joe
There is a fellow who lives in Lucin and makes propellors for ultralights. He supposedly makes the best ones available. The airstrip predates him though. I believe it was put in to service the town of Lucin back in the days when aviation was more affordable. If I am not mistaken, it was also used to service the Lucin VOR radio navigation station. From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Wow, there's a small unimproved airstrip about 3 miles east-north-east of Lucin. I wonder what the story behind that is? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-) On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
There is a fellow who lives in Lucin and makes propellors for ultralights. He supposedly makes the best ones available.
The airstrip predates him though. I believe it was put in to service the town of Lucin back in the days when aviation was more affordable. If I am not mistaken, it was also used to service the Lucin VOR radio navigation station.
His name is Ivo Zdarsky and is an escapee from the communist blok - literally. That's how he got his start in aviation. He built his escape machine. Here is a story about him. http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/airport-owner-is-only-res... It says he cleared the airstrip. I think I remember there being an airstrip when I was a teenager. I'll have to check out my old sectionals. But, I almost like your story better, Chuck. Brent From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-)
I drove the old Transcontinental railroad bed from Promontory to Lucin last summer. Dad was riding shotgun looking for holes and other terrain that'd kill the Jeep and Mom was writing down GPS coordinates of the water stations, sidings and ghost towns along it--almost nothing left of most of them--they were company owned and were in most cases physically picked up and moved to Nevada when the railroad moved south over the GSL. We stopped in Lucin for a while and looked around, saw the old watering hole that was fed from a 4" pipe from a spring up in the mountains 10+ miles away. Up until a few years ago, there were a few people living there, now it's only Ivo. We did see a UPS truck making a delivery (or a pickup, I guess) to the buildings to the side of the airstrip. It took the better part of the day because of the mapping, but it was a great trip. Hot and dusty, but the railbed was in remarkably good shape (could hit 45 mph in parts). Most of the bridges have had bypasses installed so you can't drive over them, but there are still plenty of ties, spikes, metal parts, etc left. I found the remains of a firehouse, and took a couple of the firebricks. I was amazed at how light it was, even with some of the slag still attached. The old cemeteries for the various towns are still there, but only a few readable markers. I also found the 1869 Army survey marker put in by 1st Lt Wheeler on his 'Survey west of the 100th Meridian',the 1957 USGS marker and a more modern marker--he was off by only about 10 feet. We finished the trip by driving down to the Sun Tunnels, and had dinner at the Salt Flats Cafe. I've never had better, or cheaper Mexican food, and make it a point to always eat there when I can. Dan On Aug 28, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
His name is Ivo Zdarsky and is an escapee from the communist blok - literally. That's how he got his start in aviation. He built his escape machine. Here is a story about him.
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/airport-owner-is-only-res...
It says he cleared the airstrip. I think I remember there being an airstrip when I was a teenager. I'll have to check out my old sectionals.
But, I almost like your story better, Chuck.
Brent
From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows
I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
I'm wondering if Ivo has any interest in astronomy and would be willing to put up with a few big-city folk camping out on his property from time to time. It's amazing what history can be associated with such an out-of-the-way place like Lucin. Literally the middle of nowhere.
Dan, What was the Wheeler Survey marker like? Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Daniel Holmes <danielh@holmesonics.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows I drove the old Transcontinental railroad bed from Promontory to Lucin last summer. Dad was riding shotgun looking for holes and other terrain that'd kill the Jeep and Mom was writing down GPS coordinates of the water stations, sidings and ghost towns along it--almost nothing left of most of them--they were company owned and were in most cases physically picked up and moved to Nevada when the railroad moved south over the GSL. We stopped in Lucin for a while and looked around, saw the old watering hole that was fed from a 4" pipe from a spring up in the mountains 10+ miles away. Up until a few years ago, there were a few people living there, now it's only Ivo. We did see a UPS truck making a delivery (or a pickup, I guess) to the buildings to the side of the airstrip. It took the better part of the day because of the mapping, but it was a great trip. Hot and dusty, but the railbed was in remarkably good shape (could hit 45 mph in parts). Most of the bridges have had bypasses installed so you can't drive over them, but there are still plenty of ties, spikes, metal parts, etc left. I found the remains of a firehouse, and took a couple of the firebricks. I was amazed at how light it was, even with some of the slag still attached. The old cemeteries for the various towns are still there, but only a few readable markers. I also found the 1869 Army survey marker put in by 1st Lt Wheeler on his 'Survey west of the 100th Meridian',the 1957 USGS marker and a more modern marker--he was off by only about 10 feet. We finished the trip by driving down to the Sun Tunnels, and had dinner at the Salt Flats Cafe. I've never had better, or cheaper Mexican food, and make it a point to always eat there when I can. Dan On Aug 28, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
His name is Ivo Zdarsky and is an escapee from the communist blok - literally. That's how he got his start in aviation. He built his escape machine. Here is a story about him. http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/airport-owner-is-only-res... It says he cleared the airstrip. I think I remember there being an airstrip when I was a teenager. I'll have to check out my old sectionals. But, I almost like your story better, Chuck. Brent
From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows
I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Here's a couple of pictures: The original marker, a closeup of the 1957 USGS marker that's on top, and the sign commemorating the original... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60391566/WheelerSurvey1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60391566/WheelerSurvey2.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60391566/WheelerSurvey3.jpg Dan On Aug 28, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dan, What was the Wheeler Survey marker like? Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Daniel Holmes <danielh@holmesonics.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows
I drove the old Transcontinental railroad bed from Promontory to Lucin last summer. Dad was riding shotgun looking for holes and other terrain that'd kill the Jeep and Mom was writing down GPS coordinates of the water stations, sidings and ghost towns along it--almost nothing left of most of them--they were company owned and were in most cases physically picked up and moved to Nevada when the railroad moved south over the GSL. We stopped in Lucin for a while and looked around, saw the old watering hole that was fed from a 4" pipe from a spring up in the mountains 10+ miles away. Up until a few years ago, there were a few people living there, now it's only Ivo. We did see a UPS truck making a delivery (or a pickup, I guess) to the buildings to the side of the airstrip.
It took the better part of the day because of the mapping, but it was a great trip. Hot and dusty, but the railbed was in remarkably good shape (could hit 45 mph in parts). Most of the bridges have had bypasses installed so you can't drive over them, but there are still plenty of ties, spikes, metal parts, etc left. I found the remains of a firehouse, and took a couple of the firebricks. I was amazed at how light it was, even with some of the slag still attached. The old cemeteries for the various towns are still there, but only a few readable markers. I also found the 1869 Army survey marker put in by 1st Lt Wheeler on his 'Survey west of the 100th Meridian',the 1957 USGS marker and a more modern marker--he was off by only about 10 feet.
We finished the trip by driving down to the Sun Tunnels, and had dinner at the Salt Flats Cafe. I've never had better, or cheaper Mexican food, and make it a point to always eat there when I can.
Dan
On Aug 28, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
His name is Ivo Zdarsky and is an escapee from the communist blok - literally. That's how he got his start in aviation. He built his escape machine. Here is a story about him.
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/airport-owner-is-only-res...
It says he cleared the airstrip. I think I remember there being an airstrip when I was a teenager. I'll have to check out my old sectionals.
But, I almost like your story better, Chuck.
Brent
From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows
I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
Not really, Chuck. But, in eastern oregon, the mail carrier drove a hickemup, left hand drive, and delivered the mail in canvas bags, not unlike those that were held out so the trains could catch them without stopping. Everyone had a little enclosure into which he would toss the incoming mail bag. In the morning, you put your bag out on a hook on the enclosure so he could bring back your mail, if and when, you received any. Some of the little huts were fairly fancy, for being out in the sticks. Dan, you forgot we met with the mayor of Lucin while there. Actually, a black and white goat, but he could not travel as the water hole was fenced. I guess the propellers are pretty fancy, as they have a metal rod with a flex material that you could adjust so it caught more air, or less, depending on what you needed. Sure was isolated. The road from I-80 is good, but washboardy so you do a lot of bouncing around. 73 On 8/28/2013 1:22 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
I bet Larry remembers the days when you could meet the Tuesday autogyro at the Lucin airstrip to pick up your mail. The dirigible came one Saturday a month, unless the wind was blowing. ;-)
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com>wrote:
There is a fellow who lives in Lucin and makes propellors for ultralights. He supposedly makes the best ones available.
The airstrip predates him though. I believe it was put in to service the town of Lucin back in the days when aviation was more affordable. If I am not mistaken, it was also used to service the Lucin VOR radio navigation station.
I, too, have traveled that road. It was at one point the best way to get to the west desert pumps. I visited them several times, including the innagural start up. I have driven farther west to the Lakeside mountains also. I never did make it all the way to Lucin on that road. I have always done that trip by going north from Wendover. From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Concerning the "frontage road", it runs next to the train tracks on the north side. Late last century I wandered on to it at Lakeside proper while bird watching and decided to keep driving until I found a space wide enough to turn around. I ended up in Lucin before I could get off. It was quite a ride and thankfully no train came by while I was stuck so close to the tracks. Since then there was a locked gate installed to keep such adventurers as myself from doing it again. DT ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows I did try Bing maps. There is better resolution, I agree. However, the arrow at exit 62 looks to point right at the arrow at exit 77. The arrow at exit 77 does point a bit north of Lakepoint, but not that far. I could give the 1930s surveyors a bit of slack, and over that distance an airplane should be able to connect the dots. Neither appears to me to point to Ogden. All of this assumes that Bing keeps north at the very top of the image. Did you notice the color paint on the arrow at exit 77? It looks to be red with a dark blue border. That is different than the yellow they were supposed to be painted. Patrick, is that paint still there? Brent From: Ed <utnatsedj1@xmission.com> To: Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Concrete Arrows Brent, Exit 6: Yes, that is where the road goes nearly straight north to Lakeside (where the railroad crosses the lake from Ogden and reaches the western shore of the Great Salt Lake). The road is labeled "Frontage Road" on Google Earth. The arrow is on the hill about a mile due north of the interchange. Exit 77: Yes, that is where SR 196 (the Skull Valley road) joins I-80 at Timpie Springs. The arrow is beside the road going out to the Springs and is northeast of the interchange. I'm sure we are both talking about the same two of arrows. According to the GIS Arrow Project map, the main route to LAX goes out the south end of the SL valley. The south tail of the arrow at Lakepoint must be for an alternate route to LAX. I assume that tail is intended to connect with the arrow east of Stockton that Patrick found and is on the GIS map. Did you try the Bing.com/maps for better aerial views of the arrows? Ed _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
On 28 Aug 2013, at 11:22, Brent Watson wrote:
Did you notice the color paint on the arrow at exit 77? It looks to be red with a dark blue border. That is different than the yellow they were supposed to be painted. Patrick, is that paint still there?
Brent
Only two had any paint I could see, the one over Lakepoint and the one at 77. I got pictures of paint remains at both. The one over Lakepoint only seemed to be a single color, red or maybe red-orange. 77 was different. The same orangey color for the most part (and on some of the conduit I found laying about) but the edges of the concrete did have an edging that looked to be blue. patrick
participants (8)
-
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
Daniel Holmes -
daniel turner -
Ed -
Joe Bauman -
Larry Holmes -
Patrick Wiggins