Re: [Utah-astronomy] Darwin wasn't about science?
No, they're just making it up. Darwin was all about a strict scientific explanation that matched the evidence and gave a basis for prediction and experiment. The Discovery Institute is all about power and money. They've been practicing this lie for years. They are very bad people.
OK, from all I remember from The Origin of Species, and it's been quite a few years, I don't remember it being >about a metaphysical view of the world. Anyone have any idea where they are getting this from? Is there any >truth in their statement or are they twisting things or just plain making this up?
OK, that's what I suspected. I've read some of the things they put out and I can have a hard time trying to following their leaps of logic. I am reminded of the X-Files, when in pretty much every episode Mulder and/or Scully would make these great leaps of logic (and I use the phrase loosely) and come up with conclusions that really no one could scientifically get to just by examining the "evidence." As others have mentioned, there seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on on the strictly ID side. Circular reasoning tends to give me a headache. I think I need a break from all of this, at least until I've got the books so kindly recommended by Gary. I guess in a worst case scenario I could always send my 2 younger kids to private school. I was planning on sending them to at least a charter school anyhow. But I still feel a sort of obligation to all the youth in the state, after all they are our future. Michael Carnes <michaelcarnes@earthlink.net> wrote: No, they're just making it up. Darwin was all about a strict scientific explanation that matched the evidence and gave a basis for prediction and experiment. The Discovery Institute is all about power and money. They've been practicing this lie for years. They are very bad people.
OK, from all I remember from The Origin of Species, and it's been quite a few years, I don't remember it being >about a metaphysical view of the world. Anyone have any idea where they are getting this from? Is there any >truth in their statement or are they twisting things or just plain making this up?
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We can't run from this, we have to fight it. They are fighting with religous fervor, and we have to counter it not only with facts and truth, but with equally strong fervor. My daughter has 5 more years in our state school district before college, and I have talked to her about the controversy, tried to educate her on the real issue here- an agenda by the religious right to seize power and abolish certain constitutional guarantees which would clearly demonstrate the inferiority of the claim that they feel gives them a moral authority. She knows to question ridiculous ideas when presented in the classroom, and knows that I stand behind her in such instances. Additionally, we have rights as taxpayers- we're the ones funding the whole thing, including terribly misguided and misinformed public office holders. Sadly, those behind this agenda are pulling-in some people who have a predisposition to fear of religious ostracism, even when they privately doubt the bill of goods they are being sold. The fight won't be easy or short-term, and we must be very, very careful. "In the fight of good against evil, I've found that evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful." -Dr. Leonard McCoy --- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
OK, that's what I suspected. I've read some of the things they put out and I can have a hard time trying to following their leaps of logic. I am reminded of the X-Files, when in pretty much every episode Mulder and/or Scully would make these great leaps of logic (and I use the phrase loosely) and come up with conclusions that really no one could scientifically get to just by examining the "evidence." As others have mentioned, there seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on on the strictly ID side. Circular reasoning tends to give me a headache. I think I need a break from all of this, at least until I've got the books so kindly recommended by Gary. I guess in a worst case scenario I could always send my 2 younger kids to private school. I was planning on sending them to at least a charter school anyhow. But I still feel a sort of obligation to all the youth in the state, after all they are our future.
Michael Carnes <michaelcarnes@earthlink.net> wrote:
No, they're just making it up. Darwin was all about a strict scientific explanation that matched the evidence and gave a basis for prediction and experiment. The Discovery Institute is all about power and money. They've been practicing this lie for years. They are very bad people.
OK, from all I remember from The Origin of Species, and it's been quite a few years, I don't remember it being >about a metaphysical view of the world. Anyone have any idea where they are getting this from? Is there any >truth in their statement or are they twisting things or just plain making this up?
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You're right there Chuck. Whenever people get really loud about religious things in the political sphere it's time to watch your wallet and check your door locks. Many of the ID footsoldiers operate from uncertainty in our confusing world and are simply cleaving to the old comforts. They're pawns and I feel badly for them. The people behind it are a much nastier sort. This is about power over other people. And it's about accumulating wealth It's about forcing the things they don't like to go away. It's about suppression of knowledge and inquiry. It is deeply and profoundly un- American, even as it waves a flag of false patriotism. Am I off the astronomy topic or what? On Aug 22, 2005, at 11:02 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
We can't run from this, we have to fight it. They are fighting with religous fervor, and we have to counter it not only with facts and truth, but with equally strong fervor. My daughter has 5 more years in our state school district before college, and I have talked to her about the controversy, tried to educate her on the real issue here- an agenda by the religious right to seize power and abolish certain constitutional guarantees which would clearly demonstrate the inferiority of the claim that they feel gives them a moral authority. She knows to question ridiculous ideas when presented in the classroom, and knows that I stand behind her in such instances. Additionally, we have rights as taxpayers- we're the ones funding the whole thing, including terribly misguided and misinformed public office holders.
Sadly, those behind this agenda are pulling-in some people who have a predisposition to fear of religious ostracism, even when they privately doubt the bill of goods they are being sold. The fight won't be easy or short-term, and we must be very, very careful.
"In the fight of good against evil, I've found that evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful." -Dr. Leonard McCoy
--- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
OK, that's what I suspected. I've read some of the things they put out and I can have a hard time trying to following their leaps of logic. I am reminded of the X-Files, when in pretty much every episode Mulder and/or Scully would make these great leaps of logic (and I use the phrase loosely) and come up with conclusions that really no one could scientifically get to just by examining the "evidence." As others have mentioned, there seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on on the strictly ID side. Circular reasoning tends to give me a headache. I think I need a break from all of this, at least until I've got the books so kindly recommended by Gary. I guess in a worst case scenario I could always send my 2 younger kids to private school. I was planning on sending them to at least a charter school anyhow. But I still feel a sort of obligation to all the youth in the state, after all they are our future.
Michael Carnes <michaelcarnes@earthlink.net> wrote:
No, they're just making it up. Darwin was all about a strict scientific explanation that matched the evidence and gave a basis for prediction and experiment. The Discovery Institute is all about power and money. They've been practicing this lie for years. They are very bad people.
OK, from all I remember from The Origin of Species,
and it's been quite a few years, I don't remember it being >about a metaphysical view of the world. Anyone have any idea where they are getting this from? Is there any >truth in their statement or are they twisting things or just plain making this up?
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Michael Carnes MichaelCarnes@earthlink.net home.earthlink.net/~michaelcarnes
Michael Carnes wrote:
You're right there Chuck. Whenever people get really loud about religious things in the political sphere it's time to watch your wallet and check your door locks.
As Kurt suggested earlier today everyone should go to http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/districts.htm and find the name and address of their representative on the Utah State School Board and let them know how they feel. Thanks to Kurt's suggestion my letter is already in the mail. Patrick
This is easy for me. My representative is my neighbor. --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
As Kurt suggested earlier today everyone should go to http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/districts.htm and find the name and address of their representative on the Utah State School Board and let them know how they feel.
Thanks to Kurt's suggestion my letter is already in the mail.
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Happy to report that I've already heard back from my representative and in agreeing with me he said, in part, "Let's teach science in science classrooms and teach creationism in those places appropriate for it." Patrick Chuck Hards wrote:
This is easy for me. My representative is my neighbor.
--- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
As Kurt suggested earlier today everyone should go to http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/districts.htm and find the name and address of their representative on the Utah State School Board and let them know how they feel.
Thanks to Kurt's suggestion my letter is already in the mail.
I'm writing as well. Both the board of education representative and our state government representative. Thanks for the info Kurt. Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:Happy to report that I've already heard back from my representative and in agreeing with me he said, in part, "Let's teach science in science classrooms and teach creationism in those places appropriate for it." Patrick Chuck Hards wrote:
This is easy for me. My representative is my neighbor.
--- Patrick Wiggins wrote:
As Kurt suggested earlier today everyone should go to http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/districts.htm and find the name and address of their representative on the Utah State School Board and let them know how they feel.
Thanks to Kurt's suggestion my letter is already in the mail.
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-- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm writing as well. Both the board of education representative and our state government representative. Thanks for the info Kurt.
The State Board of Education posted its agenda for the Sept. 2 meeting on its website this morning. Agenda http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/agenda1.htm Agenda Attachment Tab 1 - Further info on the evolution item http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/90205tab1.htm "Background: In accordance with Board request, a statement was developed regarding USOEÂs position on teaching evolution in Utah classrooms. The statement was developed with input from science teachers, districts, national documents, and the Board. . . . . [The staff will present the position paper.] Anticipated Action: It is recommended that the Curriculum and Instruction Committee consider the position statement on evolution and recommend acceptance of the full Board." Link to the Utah State School Board: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/ Link to "Find your [Utah State Schl. Board] member" web page: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/districts.htm (with addresses for your board member) Master address list for Utah State Schl. Board members: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/board/1members.htm The State Superintendent of Education is: Patti Harrington Utah State Office of Education 250 East 500 South P O Box 144200 Salt Lake City, Utah 84114-4200 The staff directory for the Utah State Office of Education: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/USOEStaffList.pdf The Utah State Schl. Board meetings are broadcast live over the internet: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/ADMIN/projects/live.htm - Canopus56 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Digging a little deeper still, I found the boards actual hidden agenda for Sept 2. UTAH STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION AGENDA Date: Friday, September 2, 2005 Time: Group hug: 7:45 a.m. - 8:00 a.m. Breakfast: 8:00 a.m.- 10:00 a.m. Break: 10:00 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. Cell phone Break: 11:00 a.m. - 12:15 p.m. Lunch: 12:15 p.m. - 1:15 p.m. Executive Tea: 1:15 p.m. - 5:00 p.m. Punch out: 5:00 p.m. - 5:45 p.m. Place: Executive Lunch Room Utah State Office of Education 250 East 500 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84111 ********** **********
participants (7)
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Canopus56 -
Chuck Hards -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Michael Carnes -
Michael Carnes
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Patrick Wiggins -
South Jordan Mom