We can prove the universe existed at a time when nobody could see it. That's scientific proof. The notion that it exists only because we ot other life forms ard around to witness it is delusional, giving ourselves far too important a role. To the question, what difference does it make?, I say the difference in one's perceptions matters a great deal. Why bother to protect the environment or even care about anyone if none of it matters after you die? The feeling that life goes on after yourself is why we try to make the world a better place. It's why people write wills. The difference in attitudes is the difference between self-absorbed egoism and a more caring temperament, so it does matter. I happen to know from personal experience that you're a nice guy, Chuck, so I think you believe in the reality of the experiences and existence of others. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 2:54 PM MDT Chuck Hards wrote:
Hi Joe, that's an old argument, I hope you didn't post it for my benefit alone. I understand the point of view. But the older I get, the less satisfying it is.
To me, the correct answer to the question of 'is there a sound when a tree falls with no-one to hear it', or 'is there a universe if there is no life in it', is: *It doesn't matter*. The question, ultimately, isn't worth asking. It's just words with no value.
A universe of particles and fields governed by a set of physical laws, with no intelligence in it, only matters to certain university faculty members who need a paycheck from the idea. And obviously they would exist in a different universe.
I'm one of those who is pretty sure that this universe ends when I die. At least as far as I'm concerned. If I'm wrong, then I'll be pleasantly surprised, won't I? And if there is a continuation after this life, it is bound to be so different and disconnected from this plane and it's experiences, that it isn't worth speculating about. Such musings are bandied-about so we can sleep better at night. More words with no intrinsic value.
Your mileage may vary.
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Chuck, if by "make a sound" you mean send out sound waves, then yes, the tree that falls in the forest with nobody around to hear it does make a sound. The question about the universe's existance, or not, if there were no life to appreciate it is an interesting one. It can be compared to asking if the universe exists after one's own death. Woody Alien seems to take the position that it won't, in Hannah and Her Sisters when he thinks he's dying and imagines that the places he loves (and everything else, of course) will no longer exist. These are points worth thinking about. My feeling is that the universe didn't come into existence just for my benefit. It will continue after I'm gone, just as Woody's favorite places will after he dies. The universe exists whether or not anyone observes it. The sound and light vibrations will be the same. The light of the early universe began propagating before any life came along to see it; we can detect it today but that doesn't mean it was not there at the time of the Big Bang.
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Joe, I've started and deleted my reply twice and am giving up. I sense that you haven't grasped the essence of my point. I feel that we are semantically just drifting around aimlessly. This medium is too time-consuming and isn't working for me for such a discussion; I won't turn it into debate. Can we continue the discussion in person at a later date, maybe at L&O on the weekend? Thanks, C. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
We can prove the universe existed at a time when nobody could see it. That's scientific proof. The notion that it exists only because we ot other life forms ard around to witness it is delusional, giving ourselves far too important a role. To the question, what difference does it make?, I say the difference in one's perceptions matters a great deal. Why bother to protect the environment or even care about anyone if none of it matters after you die? The feeling that life goes on after yourself is why we try to make the world a better place. It's why people write wills. The difference in attitudes is the difference between self-absorbed egoism and a more caring temperament, so it does matter. I happen to know from personal experience that you're a nice guy, Chuck, so I think you believe in the reality of the experiences and existence of others.
Sounds good! Just remind us all when it is, pls. -- Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Eye v. Camera Joe, I've started and deleted my reply twice and am giving up. I sense that you haven't grasped the essence of my point. I feel that we are semantically just drifting around aimlessly. This medium is too time-consuming and isn't working for me for such a discussion; I won't turn it into debate. Can we continue the discussion in person at a later date, maybe at L&O on the weekend? Thanks, C. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
We can prove the universe existed at a time when nobody could see it. That's scientific proof. The notion that it exists only because we ot other life forms ard around to witness it is delusional, giving ourselves far too important a role. To the question, what difference does it make?, I say the difference in one's perceptions matters a great deal. Why bother to protect the environment or even care about anyone if none of it matters after you die? The feeling that life goes on after yourself is why we try to make the world a better place. It's why people write wills. The difference in attitudes is the difference between self-absorbed egoism and a more caring temperament, so it does matter. I happen to know from personal experience that you're a nice guy, Chuck, so I think you believe in the reality of the experiences and existence of others.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
This coming Saturday! I'll send out another reminder in a couple of days. On Jul 30, 2013 4:34 PM, "Joe Bauman" <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sounds good! Just remind us all when it is, pls. -- Thanks, Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Eye v. Camera
Joe, I've started and deleted my reply twice and am giving up. I sense that you haven't grasped the essence of my point. I feel that we are semantically just drifting around aimlessly. This medium is too time-consuming and isn't working for me for such a discussion; I won't turn it into debate. Can we continue the discussion in person at a later date, maybe at L&O on the weekend?
Thanks,
C.
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
We can prove the universe existed at a time when nobody could see it. That's scientific proof. The notion that it exists only because we ot
other
life forms ard around to witness it is delusional, giving ourselves far too important a role. To the question, what difference does it make?, I say the difference in one's perceptions matters a great deal. Why bother to protect the environment or even care about anyone if none of it matters after you die? The feeling that life goes on after yourself is why we try to make the world a better place. It's why people write wills. The difference in attitudes is the difference between self-absorbed egoism and a more caring temperament, so it does matter. I happen to know from personal experience that you're a nice guy, Chuck, so I think you believe in the reality of the experiences and existence of others.
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participants (2)
-
Chuck Hards -
Joe Bauman